Please don't walk through first class

[al78]

I've been reading this thread with interest and it reminded me of back in October when my train to Manchester was cancelled due to a person hit by a train which closed the WCML.

We were advised by the train manager (about 20 minutes after the scheduled departure time) to go to Kings Cross and go up the ECML to Leeds then across to Manchester. When I got to Kings Cross I found the Leeds train about a minute before it was due to leave so it meant me dashing across to it and heading for the first door I came too. Unfortunately this was in the first class area and after some thought (and after the train had departed) I decided to try and make my way through to standard. I had my folding bike plus two full panniers with me so I left the bike in the least obstructive place I could see and walked through several first class coaches with my panniers until I eventually got to the buffet car, which I assume is the boundary between first and standard. I could go no further, as at the other end of the buffet car there were loads of people standing and there was no way through. Standard was simply rammed full, due to everyone else trying to do what I was doing. I hung around for a bit then decided to head back to where I'd left my bike (back through the first class coaches). Having got there I found a space on the floor near the door (so not in the main seating area) and sat down thinking I would be there for the remainder of the journey. Shortly after that, the train manager (a very nice lady) came up to me and explained that she was trying to get rid of an abusive passenger in first class, and she had told him something like the seat he was in was reserved (can't remember the exact words) and so she needed me to pose as this first class passenger. She also unlocked the guards van so I could put my bike in there. The result was I effectively got a free upgrade to first class for the second half of the journey, which wasn't bad at all, given I only had an advanced ticket. First time something like that has happened to me. I would have liked to give some positive feedback to East Coast Trains but I couldn't find anywhere on their website to do this.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The question there is "Is it merely walking 'through' first class to get to the exit door closest to the barriers?"

The question is not whether you are "merely walking 'through'" first class, but rather whether or not you are remaining in it. If you are walking through first class to an unlocked door, then you will not be remaining in first class. If, however, the doors have not yet been released, you would have to illegally remain in first class to wait, even if only for a matter of seconds.

I've been reading this thread with interest and it reminded me of back in October when my train to Manchester was cancelled due to a person hit by a train which closed the WCML.

We were advised by the train manager (about 20 minutes after the scheduled departure time) to go to Kings Cross and go up the ECML to Leeds then across to Manchester. When I got to Kings Cross I found the Leeds train about a minute before it was due to leave so it meant me dashing across to it and heading for the first door I came too. Unfortunately this was in the first class area and after some thought (and after the train had departed) I decided to try and make my way through to standard. I had my folding bike plus two full panniers with me so I left the bike in the least obstructive place I could see and walked through several first class coaches with my panniers until I eventually got to the buffet car, which I assume is the boundary between first and standard. I could go no further, as at the other end of the buffet car there were loads of people standing and there was no way through. Standard was simply rammed full, due to everyone else trying to do what I was doing. I hung around for a bit then decided to head back to where I'd left my bike (back through the first class coaches). Having got there I found a space on the floor near the door (so not in the main seating area) and sat down thinking I would be there for the remainder of the journey. Shortly after that, the train manager (a very nice lady) came up to me and explained that she was trying to get rid of an abusive passenger in first class, and she had told him something like the seat he was in was reserved (can't remember the exact words) and so she needed me to pose as this first class passenger. She also unlocked the guards van so I could put my bike in there. The result was I effectively got a free upgrade to first class for the second half of the journey, which wasn't bad at all, given I only had an advanced ticket. First time something like that has happened to me. I would have liked to give some positive feedback to East Coast Trains but I couldn't find anywhere on their website to do this.

If that's true then it's rather shoddy. Why on earth did she feel the need to justify herself to an abusive passenger?!

 

[grid56126]

In answer to the original question in the thread, BR and GNER have certainly used this style of announcing for a very long time. MK4s in their early years had a saloon bar swinging half height door with words to the effect "first class passengers only beyond this point". If my memory is not playing tricks I think these had some sort of bolt for locking at Stevenage? This was mirrored on the West Coast main line as well and was a direct response to the increasing number of people who were starting to walk into first class to be first off. This mass exodus started at Stevenage on trains I regularly frequented and I guess probably Watford on the West Coast?

This would mean people queueing along a coach for maybe 10 minutes or so and was mostly an issue with peak arrivals.

I guess the problem has not gone away, but it is not regular haunt of mine any more, if I travel in the peak these days it tends to be on trains where the ability to simply move to the next coach would be a luxury!

Richard

 

[FFC]

The question is not whether you are "merely walking 'through'" first class, but rather whether or not you are remaining in it. If you are walking through first class to an unlocked door, then you will not be remaining in first class. If, however, the doors have not yet been released, you would have to illegally remain in first class to wait, even if only for a matter of seconds.

So all you need to do is time your walk through first class, so you don't arrive at the doors before they are open.

Seems fairly straightforward to achieve.

And even easier when boarding, just don't stop walking until you reach standard class.

In either case if an RPI stops you, then it is they who would be causing you to "remain", so they can hardly penalise you for complying with their request.

 

[al78]

If that's true then it's rather shoddy. Why on earth did she feel the need to justify herself to an abusive passenger?!

I think she just wanted a valid sounding reason to get him to move. I didn't see the exchange, all I know was that she had been verbally abused, but I can guess that certain people think that as long as they personally can't see a problem with doing something they shouldn't, then it is not a problem full stop. You can imagine an irate passenger complaining that it is rammed full in standard but there are all these free seats here, so why not use them.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't understand why it requires so much discussion to understand that it's annoying to have paid a premium for a service, only to struggle to be able to get your belongings together, then have to queue to get out of your own carriage because a pile of people who weren't there in the first place have jumped in to try and save 60 seconds at the barrier, quite possibly having whacked and jostled you with their own coats and bags and other miscellaneous belongings in their rush to get forward. The byelaws allow this to be enforced so what's the problem, if you want the premium service, pay the premium price as those taking advantage of it have.

 

[broadgage]

I don't understand why it requires so much discussion to understand that it's annoying to have paid a premium for a service, only to struggle to be able to get your belongings together, then have to queue to get out of your own carriage because a pile of people who weren't there in the first place have jumped in to try and save 60 seconds at the barrier, quite possibly having whacked and jostled you with their own coats and bags and other miscellaneous belongings in their rush to get forward. The byelaws allow this to be enforced so what's the problem, if you want the premium service, pay the premium price as those taking advantage of it have.

Agree entirely, well sumarised.

 

[Flamingo]

I think that there is a certain childish element of "socking it to the man" involved in some of the people who do this (and have posted on here). I see this quite often when people I have asked to move stand as close as they can get to the dividing line (blocking the corridor) saying "I'm not in First Class now" (To which I usually reply "No, you're just being very childish now")

 

[harz99]

In answer to the original question in the thread, BR and GNER have certainly used this style of announcing for a very long time. MK4s in their early years had a saloon bar swinging half height door with words to the effect "first class passengers only beyond this point". If my memory is not playing tricks I think these had some sort of bolt for locking at Stevenage? Richard

Your memory is not playing tricks. It was done purely and simply because the dining car stewards were often either still serving or clearing up/relaying and carrying a mixture of china crockery/food/hot tea and coffee pots, and it was considered dangerous to have passengers pushing through the 2.5 or more carriages whilst this went on.

 

[edwin_m]

Announced approaching Kings Cross on EC this morning "please leave the train from the coach in which you are travelling". However this wasn't until somewhere after Finsbury Park when quite a few people had already walked forward, including me (but not as far as First Class!).

 

[ryan125hst]

In answer to the original question in the thread, BR and GNER have certainly used this style of announcing for a very long time. MK4s in their early years had a saloon bar swinging half height door with words to the effect "first class passengers only beyond this point". If my memory is not playing tricks I think these had some sort of bolt for locking at Stevenage? This was mirrored on the West Coast main line as well and was a direct response to the increasing number of people who were starting to walk into first class to be first off. This mass exodus started at Stevenage on trains I regularly frequented and I guess probably Watford on the West Coast?

This would mean people queueing along a coach for maybe 10 minutes or so and was mostly an issue with peak arrivals.

I guess the problem has not gone away, but it is not regular haunt of mine any more, if I travel in the peak these days it tends to be on trains where the ability to simply move to the next coach would be a luxury!

Richard

Presumably the door you mention was somewhere down the corridor on the right hand side of this pre-refurbishment photo?

http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/car/Mk4/MK4-SV/Mk4_GNER_unrefurbished_SV_3.jpg

Was the door at the first class end, or at the buffet end?

Come to think of it, I don't recall ever seeing a photo of the buffet end of a pre-refurb Mark 4. I did travel on a pre-refurb Mark 4 once, but didn't go to the buffet (as far as I can remember- I was about 8 at the time )

 

[harz99]

From memory only.

Having walked from what was coach "F" across the corridor connection into the buffet car, the swing door was positioned beyond the end of the counter but I can't remember whether it was at the actual counter end or further along - anybody?

 

[185]

On arrival at Kings Cross on East Coast this morning, an announcement asked standard class passengers to not walk through first class when leaving the train-an announcement I'd never heard made before.

Quite apart from it being somewhat pointless-after all, when everyone is leaving the train it seems to matter little if passengers momentarily pass through first class-it is also slightly offensive, as if having standard class passengers in first class even for a moment would somehow contaminate or offend first class passengers.

Has anyone else come across this announcement before?

Before the MK4 refurb, you could shut and lock the intermediate swing door just after Stevenage to remove the problem of impatient commuters.

The door had a T-key lock and a break glass for emergency use. Once seen some Mr Angry from Grantham getting arrested at the cross for doing precisely that

 

[soil]

Slightly less annoying than what I observed on a Swiss flight from Zurich to Hong Kong, where the business class passengers were blocked from leaving via the front exit until the first class passengers had exited. Annoying for those who'd paid several £1000s for the 'privilege' of business class!

Well there's a bit more to it than that
http://www.btmagazine.nl/?os_airline=swiss-airlines-business-class-review

"I went to the check-in desk to check in for my Business Class flight to Beijing.
There was no queue at the desk and the check-in went fast and very professional.
I was invited to visit the Swiss Business Lounge.

If you arrive at Zurich Kloten Airport and the plane parks not at the gate, the First- or Business Class passenger will be transported to the plane by a luxury Mercedes Sprinter for your connecting flight or immigration if you have a connecting flight.

I went to the new security area, where there is a special fast lane for First- and Business Class passengers."

"The service in the Business lounge was great, even as it was very busy, there was enough staff to clean up the tables and to refill the drinks and food.
The seats are very comfortable."

"First- and Business Class passengers pre-board the plane.
The airbus 340-300 got 8 First Class seats and 47 Business Class seats.
The Economy Class passengers are not boarding or walk through the First- and Business Class cabin section."

"The seat is also notable for its use of a fully pneumatic air cushions, which mean that the seat’s firmness can be adjusted to the passenger’s preference."

"You have an incredible space to work in these seats."
"The seats are fitted with all the latest technologies onboard, like a power charger for your laptop and reading led light.
Each seat comes with a side-panel control-unit, which controls the recline position and offers a back massage.
The Business Class seats Swiss has introduced are the most comfortable seats that I have ever flown in Business Class."

"I was welcomed by the friendly staff and they asked me if they could hang my jacket away.
Each seat has his own hanger with seat number on it"

"After the welcome drink, it was time to get ready for the flight.
I found the aminity kit very nice, Ear Plugs, Socks, Lip balsam and Eye shade where presented in a tin decorated box with the Airbus 340 on top.
All the other things like a Razor, Toothbrush and Moistening Cream can be found in the washroom."

"At the end you will finish the meal service with, Swiss Cheese, Coffee and of course Swiss Chocolate.
The food was incredible tastfull and tasted like meals served on the ground in a luxury restaurant."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
First Class on the railways is not exactly exclusive anyway. A first class season ticket costs typically 50% more than standard.

Considering that this buys you more leg/elbow room and often a seat as opposed to no seat, it's a very low-cost service, and snobbery is inappropriate.

Airline premium travel costs typically three to 5 times the equivalent economy travel, and here the snobbery makes more sense.

 

[fowler9]

Well there's a bit more to it than that
http://www.btmagazine.nl/?os_airline=swiss-airlines-business-class-review

"I went to the check-in desk to check in for my Business Class flight to Beijing.
There was no queue at the desk and the check-in went fast and very professional.
I was invited to visit the Swiss Business Lounge.

If you arrive at Zurich Kloten Airport and the plane parks not at the gate, the First- or Business Class passenger will be transported to the plane by a luxury Mercedes Sprinter for your connecting flight or immigration if you have a connecting flight.

I went to the new security area, where there is a special fast lane for First- and Business Class passengers."

"The service in the Business lounge was great, even as it was very busy, there was enough staff to clean up the tables and to refill the drinks and food.
The seats are very comfortable."

"First- and Business Class passengers pre-board the plane.
The airbus 340-300 got 8 First Class seats and 47 Business Class seats.
The Economy Class passengers are not boarding or walk through the First- and Business Class cabin section."

"The seat is also notable for its use of a fully pneumatic air cushions, which mean that the seat’s firmness can be adjusted to the passenger’s preference."

"You have an incredible space to work in these seats."
"The seats are fitted with all the latest technologies onboard, like a power charger for your laptop and reading led light.
Each seat comes with a side-panel control-unit, which controls the recline position and offers a back massage.
The Business Class seats Swiss has introduced are the most comfortable seats that I have ever flown in Business Class."

"I was welcomed by the friendly staff and they asked me if they could hang my jacket away.
Each seat has his own hanger with seat number on it"

"After the welcome drink, it was time to get ready for the flight.
I found the aminity kit very nice, Ear Plugs, Socks, Lip balsam and Eye shade where presented in a tin decorated box with the Airbus 340 on top.
All the other things like a Razor, Toothbrush and Moistening Cream can be found in the washroom."

"At the end you will finish the meal service with, Swiss Cheese, Coffee and of course Swiss Chocolate.
The food was incredible tastfull and tasted like meals served on the ground in a luxury restaurant."
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
First Class on the railways is not exactly exclusive anyway. A first class season ticket costs typically 50% more than standard.

Considering that this buys you more leg/elbow room and often a seat as opposed to no seat, it's a very low-cost service, and snobbery is inappropriate.

Airline premium travel costs typically three to 5 times the equivalent economy travel, and here the snobbery makes more sense.

As an aside from the actual discussion you should see the trip reports on Airliners.net from first and business class passengers along with the photos. It's a different world. Ha ha. That said the A340 is a lovely plane to fly on even in economy in my opinion.

 

[soil]

I have flown both First and Business, and also used the different lounges and check-ins.

The ground services are really not all that exciting, lounge food is nothing special you can dine a la carte in an airport restaurant for £20 or so and eat better, or out of the airport in a Michelin starred restaurant, which would beat any lounge in the world.

They have things like showers, breakfasts on arrival and so on but almost invariably you can get the same thing for a relatively modest (relative to the ticket price) sum of cash by paying for it.

On the air the food is generally really nothing at all special, if you've got that kind of cash to spend you've had better food, better chocolates, better coffee and so on plenty of times before. It's better presented than economy and they do use slightly nicer ingredients, but again you have to read these ecstatic reports a little carefully because there's a lot of self-justification going on.

The booze on the other hand can be very good. You get vintage champagne in First (£100 say), and a more standard £30-£40 champagne in Business, as well as generally nice wines (though the champagne is pretty much always the best bang for buck). It's all nice but again it's not really an exclusive thing, because anyone can buy nice wine, and apart from the champagnes they aren't generally unaffordable, and you could get a dozen boxes of the First Class champagne for the price of a F ticket.

What you are really paying for is the seat, you get 72" seat pitch rather than 32", and more sideways room too. It's not hard to sleep in a flat bed business product whereas at least personally speaking it's very hard to sleep in an economy seat and this really is the beginning and the end of the exclusivity - you get a very nice seat/bed as opposed to an uncomfortable one.

Everything else (the food, the wine, the ground services) is window-dressing designed to persuade people it's worth it/to collect the frequent flyer miles, really they are trying to sell you a seat occupying 3x more floor area of the plane, and to do that they package it with caviar, champagne and other things.

Of course that's long-haul; short-haul you just get lounge access, a slightly bigger seat pitch (say 38" rather than 32") and better booze on it. Nothing really special (and that's not to say it's worth it in long-haul either, but with long-haul in business/first you WILL arrive much better rested/ready for your trip than in economy, and that's worth something), but they have successfully created the exclusive mystique, marketing it as a luxury good, the equivalent of Louis Vuitton rather than Debenhams, and they still manage to sell business class seats on 1 hour flights because they've effectively convinced wealthy people that economy is unbearable under any circumstances.

 

[broadgage]

It should be noted that while a first class season ticket is only about one and a half times the price of a similar standard ticket, that some first class fares on the railway are many times the corresponding standard class fare.

As an example, walk up, off peak fare from Taunton to London is £40-50 standard and over £170 first, well over four times as much.

If I have paid over four times the standard class fare in order to use first, then I would not be very impressed if first is in effect declassified from just before Reading until arrival at Paddington, or for over 25% of the journey.

 

[OLJR]

The booze on the other hand can be very good. You get vintage champagne in First (£100 say)

There is an extremely entertaining story about the first class champagne on FlyerTalk where the chap drinks considerably more than GBP 100-worth:

8 bottles of Dom on Singapore Airlines

What you are really paying for is the seat, you get 72" seat pitch rather than 32", and more sideways room too. It's not hard to sleep in a flat bed business product whereas at least personally speaking it's very hard to sleep in an economy seat and this really is the beginning and the end of the exclusivity - you get a very nice seat/bed as opposed to an uncomfortable one.

Everything else (the food, the wine, the ground services) is window-dressing

In the past I was a reasonably regular business class long-haul traveller and occasional first class traveller. It is worth mentioning that I find sleeping in business class sufficient to see me through the next day but the extra space in first really provides a great night's sleep.

On so many flights I would hardly eat or drink anything, especially short overnights when I would put the seat back and sleep all the way.

On my recent first class trip to Singapore, 13 hours in each direction, the flight back left at 11 in the night and I did not actually eat or drink anything apart from two chocolates, a glass of pudding wine and a few bottles of still water.

But I got eight hours sleep in each direction and had no jet lag at all so I was extremely happy. That is the real benefit of premium air travel.

As an aside from the actual discussion you should see the trip reports on Airliners.net from first and business class passengers along with the photos. It's a different world

After many years flying regularly on the plane I am pleased to be back to travelling regularly on the train. No matter how comfy the seat air travel is tiring due to low cabin pressure, time zone changes and airport hassles at both ends. Long distance rail travel in the UK is dead easy in comparison.

 

[Northerner]

If the really important people sit at the front of the train, with those expensive tickets, and comfy chairs. I'm glad I'm the driver, I even get peace a quiet apart from the AWS

 

[jon0844]

But you don't usually get a comfy chair do you?

 

[Deerfold]

But you don't usually get a comfy chair do you?

Or a couple of hours' sleep.

 

[Northerner]

The new chairs are lovely, even for a short arse like me

 

[OLJR]

But you don't usually get a comfy chair do you?

I can't speak for trains, but I can tell you that flight crew seats in aeroplanes are extremely comfortable. The manufacturers spend a lot of time and money designing them.

Surely the train manufacturers would also make the necessary investment to ensure that driver seats are comfy?

 

[soil]

It should be noted that while a first class season ticket is only about one and a half times the price of a similar standard ticket, that some first class fares on the railway are many times the corresponding standard class fare.

As an example, walk up, off peak fare from Taunton to London is £40-50 standard and over £170 first, well over four times as much.

If I have paid over four times the standard class fare in order to use first, then I would not be very impressed if first is in effect declassified from just before Reading until arrival at Paddington, or for over 25% of the journey.

There is no off-peak walk-up first-class single.

The base First Class Advance fare is £35.60, and it's possible therefore that the First Class passenger has paid less for his seat than a super-off-peak standard passenger (£40.50).

First Class on the railways is not exclusive, since you can buy into it for an absolutely (not merely relatively) small amount of money.

 

[starrymarkb]

The price difference between Ecomomy and First on airlines is staggering!

With BA going LHR-LAX
Economy £580
First £11,500

 

[MichaelJP59]

I used to fly regular business class London-San Francisco and Los Angeles, but only because the company was paying. Personally if they had handed me the thousands of pounds difference in cash as I sat down on the plane I would have quite happily gone to the back of the plane and put up with it. I can sleep in economy no problem as long as I'm not in a middle seat between two "larger" people. As for first class the difference is ridiculous.

As for rail though, the difference is far less and much better value, mainly because of the less crowded and quieter environment more suited to work.

 

[bb21]

I think your post sums things up very well indeed.

I am also surprised that there are some members that seem to have such a hatred for first class, or the people that dare travel in first, which I can only assume is down to some sort of jealousy (even if first class is really no big deal on a train).

As such, there's this arrogance and protestation that seems to make some think it's okay to walk through first class on an Intercity train to be closest to the exit, when it absolutely isn't and there's no excuse to think otherwise. You don't have a ticket that allows access to first class, so accept it and stop feeling insecure because someone else does.

When an Intercity train is coming close to the end of its journey, people are quite entitled to stand up and get their things together, put a laptop or tablet away, unplug chargers, get a jacket on etc - without being hindered by people all walking through and queuing down the aisle, and no doubt some of them desperately waiting to hear a huff or comment so they can have a go at the people they now see as some sort of enemy. I mean, they're probably an MP, banker or the CEO of an energy company.

It's equally rude to do this in standard of course, and can you imagine if people did that on a plane. Seated in row 38, land, seatbelts off, pull your bag out and storm up to the front of the plane to be first off. (Let's assume there's no rear exit being used!).

Those that walk through the train* are the ones being rude and obnoxious - not those who opted to pay to be in first class and are now seen as 'fair game' because you either can't afford first class, or would rather it didn't exist. And all you're doing is creating the very divide you're supposedly against.

Don't agree with first class? Write to the TOC, complain to the DfT, lobby your MP.

Or if doing something that might actually change something seems like too much work, go onto a forum and moan about it, or send some rude Tweets or like a 'get rid of First Class on trains' Facebook page.

* Let me point out that I also walk down the train on FCC services, but I do it earlier so people aren't getting up to get ready to alight. And if people are already up, or an aisle is blocked, I'll stop short. No need to squeeze through. Likewise, if the train is for some reason quite busy, I'll stay put.

This post is spot on.

I wonder whether those people who wished that First Class accommodation did not exist would be happy to pay an increased fare as a result of revenue loss from losing the cash-cow known as First Class fares. As I have always said to people who wished things were different: be careful what you wish for.

I see all that anger towards First Class accommodation/passengers a reflection of some sort of insecurity and self-pity. So what if some people are willing to pay more in return for a better travel environment? I regularly travel in First Class not because I feel superior to others, but I get a much better chance to travel in a more relaxed atmosphere with more personal space. If I don't like the price, I don't travel First. Big deal.

I remember being on the EMT breakfast service one morning last week. It was a busy service but by no means wedged in Standard, as there were quite a few seats empty towards the back of the train (an HST). However there were quite a few Standard Class pax standing in the vestibules of Coaches F and G, while the crew were busy bringing breakfast (that have just been cooked) through to First Class pax and/or clearing the tables. They were causing all sorts of problems blocking the crew's safe passage. I wonder how many would be suing EMT had one of the crew tripped and tipped hot food over their Armani suits. :roll:

I was chatting to some First Class hosts a couple of days later and mentioned my observation that staff did not appear keen on asking the punters to move, despite it being an obvious hazard, and one of them just laughed and said that they would be getting complaints from those self-important ones if they dared challenge them, and the company does not look favourably on complaints whatsoever.

 

[Goatboy]

There is no off-peak walk-up first-class single.

The base First Class Advance fare is £35.60, and it's possible therefore that the First Class passenger has paid less for his seat than a super-off-peak standard passenger (£40.50).

First Class on the railways is not exclusive, since you can buy into it for an absolutely (not merely relatively) small amount of money.

Absolutely agree. I always travel First Class with FGW when I travel from Devon to London as I can usually do the 400 mile round trip, in First Class, for less than it'd cost me in fuel in the car and certainly less than it would cost me in standard class to go to Birmingham on XC.

It's very good value on some routes.

 

[soil]

The price difference between Ecomomy and First on airlines is staggering!

With BA going LHR-LAX
Economy £580
First £11,500

F prices seems very flexible depending on destination:

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/low-price-finder/public/en_gb


SFO is £4.5k
LAX is £8.5k
JFK is £6.5k

Obviously LA and NY - London have a greater proportion of super-rich, so they can sell F class fares at Monopoly prices, whereas for other equally-long flights they can't get away with it. Not saying that £4.5k is cheap of course....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This post is spot on.

I wonder whether those people who wished that First Class accommodation did not exist would be happy to pay an increased fare as a result of revenue loss from losing the cash-cow known as First Class fares. As I have always said to people who wished things were different: be careful what you wish for.

Cash cow really? Do you have any figures on this? There are an awful lot of empty First carriages around, and as noted they don't really put much effort, pricing-wise into making it exclusive.

 

[Goatboy]

There are an awful lot of empty First carriages around, and as noted they don't really put much effort, pricing-wise into making it exclusive.

I think the services they DO put effort in, pricing wise, are those which have the good value Advance tickets on. The empty ones where no effort is put in typically are those where all thats available is comedy price walkon fares almost nobody with a brain would bother with.