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"Poor rail conditions" meaning?

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MichaelJP59

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Had this given out on the PA this morning after running very slowly towards Wakefield Westgate on the delayed 0755 from Retford->Leeds.

Just wondered what this meant, is it usually leaves on the line? And do they run slowly similarly to driving in a car, where you may have to emergency brake and the stopping distance would be extended?
 
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tsr

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As leaves and (light) rain/moisture end up on the track, they will inevitably then be compacted by any trains. The resultant mix bakes onto the rail, forming a layer of contamination which (as said above) has basically the same slippery effect as ice. Further problems can be caused by any rain, sleet or snow either freezing onto the rails or, even worse, onto the contamination. The railheads will sometimes be around 5ºC below the air temperature, although this can in turn vary with ground temperature.

All this slippery stuff means train wheels cannot grip when moving, and therefore they may be damaged and get "wheel flats", where the wheel is deformed by the pressures of trying to turn or brake on such contamination. In addition, wheels may "lock up" on slippery stretches, so the train may overshoot signals or station calls when braking. Furthermore, electrical insulation caused by leaves on rails used by track circuits can actually cause failures of those, as the track circuits fail safe and the signalling systems show sections as "occupied" by leaves rather than trains.

This can be combatted with various railhead treatment train options, including water jetting and laying sandite/gels/deicers; plus there's sanding equipment and Wheelslide Protection (WSP, used to adjust power to the bogies/axles) on many trains, drivers should use special driving techniques, and there's often frequent running of "ghost trains" to ensure rails are kept clear (though this latter option usually applies to snowy rails). Nevertheless, all this can be an operator's worst nightmare, not least for their driving staff.
 
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edwin_m

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Furthermore, electrical insulation caused by leaves on rails used by track circuits can actually cause failures of those, as the track circuits fail safe and the signalling systems show sections as "occupied" by leaves rather than trains.

It's the other way round. Leaves insulating the rails may cause a wrong side failure where a train is present but not detected. This is much more serious.
 

tsr

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It's the other way round. Leaves insulating the rails may cause a wrong side failure where a train is present but not detected. This is much more serious.

Ooops, yes! Sorry! I do of course mean the other way round. I'm a bit tired... though quite how I could make such a stupid error is a bit embarrassing.

I may have been thinking of the extra stress on rails causing breakages and incorrect indications.
 
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jopsuk

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Big problem today because the strong winds are stripping trees of leaves- the entire country is going to look very bare (barring evergreens) compared to yesterday by tommorow!
 

CatfordCat

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I'm not sure that the railway term "poor rail conditions" is good to feed to the general public - I'm sure a few people will take it to mean "the rails are in poor condition" and worry about maintenance.

On the other hand, the honest "leaves on the line" is seen as a bit of a joke.

I'm not sure there's an easy answer.

And as for the storm tonight, I think there may be a few trees on the line, not just leaves...
 

edwin_m

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Today it seems that larger things than leaves are the problem, such as trampolines and gazebos. However, the imposition of blanket restrictions seems to have been successful as there have been no reports of disruption from blankets on the line.
 

Andrewlong

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We've had a late autumn this year with plenty of trees in early December still having their leaves. I was thinking about the extra allowance SWT have for poor rail adhesion comes to an end on Saturday.

But given winds today and amount of leaves on the ground, this problem may have reduced......
 

brillopad

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But given winds today and amount of leaves on the ground, this problem may have reduced......

HSTs in trouble again on the Devon banks...


16:06 London Paddington to Penzance due 21:31 This train is being delayed between Newton Abbot and Plymouth and is now expected to be 147 minutes late.
This train will no longer call at Totnes and Ivybridge.
This is due to poor rail conditions.


There are another 3 behind it.
 

infobleep

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Couldn't South West Train just announce an emergency timetable and carry on with their leaf fall timetable? After all they can't predict with certainty the weather won't come at a different time to the average.

If they don't trains will simply just get delayed. Some leaves will have fallen today but it wasn't as bad down here as the north and east of the country
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
HSTs in trouble again on the Devon banks...


16:06 London Paddington to Penzance due 21:31 This train is being delayed between Newton Abbot and Plymouth and is now expected to be 147 minutes late.
This train will no longer call at Totnes and Ivybridge.
This is due to poor rail conditions.


There are another 3 behind it.

I see no trains are due to stop at Ivybridge, according to live National Rail Enquiries departure board and nothing else arranged for passengers according to that page. Is it really bad in Ivybridge?
 

Woody

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HSTs in trouble again on the Devon banks...


16:06 London Paddington to Penzance due 21:31 This train is being delayed between Newton Abbot and Plymouth and is now expected to be 147 minutes late.
This train will no longer call at Totnes and Ivybridge.
This is due to poor rail conditions.


There are another 3 behind it.
I was on the preceding 1506 Paddington to Penzance from Exeter to Plymouth and we barely made it up Rattery bank after stopping at Totnes. Almost down to walking pace several times. It been absolute chaos this evening. This is the worst season for HST wheel slip problems I have ever known in Devon and Cornwall. For the last few weeks most of the wheel slip problems have been in Cornwall regularly delaying eastbound services, most notably on Largin Bank as HSTs try to excellerate from Bodmin Parkway but tonight it has been westbound services on the south Devon banks that have experienced problems. All rather strange really given the the weather in Devon and Cornwall for several weeks has been unusually benign for the time of year. Devon and Cornwall have also missed todays bad weather effecting other parts of the country as well.
 

brillopad

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Couldn't South West Train just announce an emergency timetable and carry on with their leaf fall timetable? After all they can't predict with certainty the weather won't come at a different time to the average.

If they don't trains will simply just get delayed. Some leaves will have fallen today but it wasn't as bad down here as the north and east of the country
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I see no trains are due to stop at Ivybridge, according to live National Rail Enquiries departure board and nothing else arranged for passengers according to that page. Is it really bad in Ivybridge?

Totnes down has a nasty incline approached from a slow curve - not stopping there probably helps the driver keep momentum to tackle the slippery incline - Ivybridge is flat...more to do with making up time.

When trains are 100+ minutes late dropping stops seems a bit of a token effort more likely to generate passenger anger (unless local stoppers pick them up)
 

infobleep

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The thing is, other trains were stopping at Totnes. If that has the problems then surely they should stop at Ivybridge due to earlier delays and skip Totnes due to poor rail conditions.

Sent from my HUAWEI U8815 using Tapatalk
 

MichaelJP59

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Do any trains have traction control electronics (as per most cars) to control wheel slip and maximise traction?
 

notadriver

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In my humble opinion whilst the 'traction control' or WSP is excellent for maximizing braking ability, during acceleration I prefer to use a lower power setting rather than have the system work overtime and it makes for a more comfortable ride.
 

O L Leigh

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...plus it actually gets you going more quickly than simply giving it the beans and then leaving it to the WSP to sort it all out.

**EDIT**

As for explaining it to the public, well I don't think they really want to be educated. Trying to explain anything about the railways to them, whether it be a technical or operational matter, is a total waste of time. They know better than we do and, as a consequence, we a totally incompetent shower of sh*te.

O L Leigh
 
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edwin_m

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WSP traditionally refers to wheel slide protection, which only applies during braking. All disc-braked trains have it, going back to the 70s, though more modern systems probably work better. You can sometimes hear the "spitting" noise as the WSP releases the air brakes on one axle when it detects a slide. Tread braked stock doesn't seem to need it, not sure if this is because of the lower deceleration rate or the fact that the brake block cleans the wheel tread when it is applied. WSP activity can also be used to trigger systems that apply sand under the wheels, usually on the second bogie of a multiple unit.

As mentioned, modern EMUs and DEMUs with AC motors will also detect adhesion problems during acceleration (known as wheel spin) and will reduce power to any motor that is turning a lot faster than the others. In older DC-motored EMUs and locos this will happen without any special kit, because the characteristics of the motors and their connection in parallel within a bogie means that if one turns faster it will rapidly lose torque. I believe correcting wheelspin on diesel-hydraulic MUs (Sprinters etc) is entirely down to the driver reducing the power notch.
 

O L Leigh

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As mentioned, modern EMUs and DEMUs with AC motors will also detect adhesion problems during acceleration (known as wheel spin) and will reduce power to any motor that is turning a lot faster than the others. In older DC-motored EMUs and locos this will happen without any special kit, because the characteristics of the motors and their connection in parallel within a bogie means that if one turns faster it will rapidly lose torque. I believe correcting wheelspin on diesel-hydraulic MUs (Sprinters etc) is entirely down to the driver reducing the power notch.

Nope.

DC-motored EMUs also have WSP to automatically detect and deal with wheel-slip (note, not wheel-spin) under power and will dip the power to compensate. Likewise, diesel-hydraulic DMUs also have WSP that works in exactly the same way.

O L Leigh
 

Erniescooper

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I believe correcting wheelspin on diesel-hydraulic MUs (Sprinters etc) is entirely down to the driver reducing the power notch.

Class 175/180 (and probably class 185) use a system where if the Brake control registers an acceleration rate of greater than 1.2 m/s squared on the motor bogie it will send a torque reduction signal to the transmission control on that car and reduce demand to the engine/transmission of up to 74% of the drivers traction demand . All the drivers seem to do is leave the unit in notch 2 and let the electronics do the work .
 

455driver

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As far as I am aware we have only had jetting on our patch for a couple of years now, being the first train behind the squirtter is not fun!

The easy way of (normally) telling them apart is a jetting train will be 3Jxx and a Sandite (or trackgrip60) train will 3Sxx. That is a basic rule but sometimes a 3Sxx will only lay at certain (small) areas and just jet the rest, that stuff isnt cheap and NR dont want to waste it.
 

infobleep

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What did they do in the steam days or did steam trains simply melt any ice due to their heat?

Also us the age of the trains on the reading to Gatwick line a factor in them struggling some days with poor rail conditions more so than SWT.

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