Colas Class 70s - deliveries now underway

TorqueOfTheDevil said:

Please explain! Or have I missed a joke?!

Click to expand...

A couple have broken on the log trains and caused quite significant headaches for those on the Marches line.

Oh I see, thanks for the clarification. But then, for those living along the Marches, the Class 70s taking over might be a case of 'out of the frying pan, into the...fire...'

Ha ha.

Regarding Freightliners option on the last 10 that they have not yet had. These are the same 10 locos that are going to Colas instead.

Peter Sarf said:

Ha ha.

Regarding Freightliners option on the last 10 that they have not yet had. These are the same 10 locos that are going to Colas instead.

Click to expand...

So FL must have been really disappointed with the first 20! What are they going to do for new locos in future, more damn Freds ?

Beveridges said:

So FL must have been really disappointed with the first 20! What are they going to do for new locos in future, more damn Freds ?

Click to expand...

I don't think so,I think they may look elsewhere such as Voith and possibly help develop a UK loading guage Maxima or they will look at other Vossloh units such as a UKLight 4000 or perhaps (and I'd like to see this too) a UK version of the G2000BB but altered to have a Co-Co wheel configuration therefore eliminating the deluge of Sheds which GBRf seem to carry on with.But I think GE's days here in the UK are finished once the Colas order has been fulfilled!

Beveridges said:

So FL must have been really disappointed with the first 20! What are they going to do for new locos in future, more damn Freds ?

Click to expand...

I doubt it very much -:
As I understand it new regulations relating to loco exhaust emissions come into effect on 1/1/15.
The current build Class 66s do not meet these regulations therefore only new class 66 locos delivered before 31/12/14 are acceptable on U.K. railways.
The present build rate for Class 66 locos will allow up to 14 to be completed in that time frame.12 of these are on order for GBRF for delivery from August 2014, leaving a theoretical 2 more construction slots available.
We have seen that manufacturers are prepared to revise their loco designs to fit the U.K loading gauge for relatively small batches of locomotives.
GM for a total of 15 Class 59 5 59/0, 4 59/1 and 6 59/2
GM - Alsthom 30 Class 67
GE - 20 (19) Class 70 (Now plus 9 70/80x plus 1 x ex demo loco.
Vossloh 15 Eurolight UK ( Class 68 ?)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The following have allegedly stated they would consider developing a U.K. compatible locomotive in response to firm orders -:
Bombardier Traxx
Siemens Vectron
Vossloh 4000 ( Big brother to Eurolight ) Already ordered by GBRF's parent company
Voith Maxima CC
Alstom Prima 2.
So I think FL will have to look elsewhere for new traction unless they can get a grip on the "for sale/sold" Class 60's after refurbishment.
As ever your comments and observations appreciated.
Be lucky
David

I'd say the 60's have an outside chance of FL looking at them,I also hear there's an outside chance of Dalian-CNR building loco's for the UK which are just UK loading guage versions of the ones they built for KiwiRail.But whatever the choices,rest assured North American loco's in this country have had their chips,eventually the 66's will be replaced by a mix of Vossloh 4000's plus other Vossloh and Voith models and the "Ying Ying" noise will be a thing of the past unless a 59/66 preservation group is formed! 70's will eventually be scrapped and replaced by Voith Maxima CC or similar,but we'll be getting loco's with decent sounding engines!

Firstly, it will be a very, very long time before the 66's get withdrawn in mass. No point looking forwards to it as I'm sure all the ex-BR diesel locomotives will be withdrawn from mainline use before then.

Secondly, the 66 is hugely popular with enthusiasts. Yes, there are a lot of haters (myself included) but they also have a massive fan base. There is no doubt that many of them will go into preservation. The yinging will go on. I bet even in a hundred years from now there will still be a 66 yinging somewhere.

Finally, the 66-replacements will probably not sound decent. They are going to be silenced. Think how effective engine silencing will be in the 2040s or 2050s when the mass 66 withdrawals will probably start. All freight may even be electric hauled by then.

I'm just glad we are seeing an end to the 66 production line as it is getting damn monotonous with Sheds & Freds.

Photohunter71 said:

I'd say the 60's have an outside chance of FL looking at them,I also hear there's an outside chance of Dalian-CNR building loco's for the UK which are just UK loading guage versions of the ones they built for KiwiRail.But whatever the choices,rest assured North American loco's in this country have had their chips,eventually the 66's will be replaced by a mix of Vossloh 4000's plus other Vossloh and Voith models and the "Ying Ying" noise will be a thing of the past unless a 59/66 preservation group is formed! 70's will eventually be scrapped and replaced by Voith Maxima CC or similar,but we'll be getting loco's with decent sounding engines!

Click to expand...

By the time 66s/70s are scrapped I'd would guess the need would be for electrics/electro-diesels more than for diesels.

Is there no way GM could go beyond 2015 by building a lower-emission version of the 66? Possibly using the same body shell but with a more up-to-date GM power unit ?

Somehow I'm still not convinced that we have seen the last new order for sheds.

We've had nearly thirty years of more & more 59s/66s invading this country its about time it ended.

I somehow can't see FL continuing with 70's as they have been more than troublesome.66's,possibly a few years life yet in them,but they won't be replaced like for like when they get into a fight with another loco/rolling stock or something else.I think there will still be the need for diesels long into the years ahead but not as many,yes electrics will start to replace quite a few but they'll have to start getting planning now,and why send 92's abroad and store 90's etc if this is the future?

Photohunter71 said:

I somehow can't see FL continuing with 70's as they have been more than troublesome.

Click to expand...

The 60s were equally as troublesome. In fact most locos that end up being really good are troublesome at first.

I'm prepared to be corrected,but somehow I just don't see any more 70's coming to these shores.I'm sure half the 60's battles were due to poor maintenance etc.

Photohunter71 said:

I'm prepared to be corrected,but somehow I just don't see any more 70's coming to these shores.I'm sure half the 60's battles were due to poor maintenance etc.

Click to expand...

I don't see the 70s becoming big either as there isn't really the need for many powerful locos when we have the 66s. Most Intermodals can be electric hauled then diesel hauled into Yards etc. There are very few flows now which require the power of the 70.

I do imagine we will see a few more though after Colas is finished.

ModernRailways said:

I somehow can't see FL continuing with 70's as they have been more than troublesome.

Click to expand...

Any locomotive that doesn't start with 59xxx, 66xxx or 67xxx has been troublesome both in early life and later life!

Most FOC's have only got one *safe* choice, the 66's & that's basically it, if they want more power they've got the unreliable 60's, 70's, 86's, 90's & 92's, or take a chance with a new unproven design like a 68 or 88 which could be equally as troublesome.

don't see the 70s becoming big either as there isn't really the need for many powerful locos when we have the 66s

Click to expand...

There will always be a need for more power. Even the 70's, while an improvement over the previous Type 5's, are still not powerful enough. On a heavy train, they only have between 1 to 2 horsepower per tonne which means slow acceleration and slow speeds on inclines. What we really need is 6,000hp+ for general purpose freight. Currently only the Class 90 & 92 can offer this requirement. In some parts of Europe they have 12,000hp+ electric locos on some of their freights.

I think there will still be the need for diesels long into the years ahead but not as many,yes electrics will start to replace quite a few but they'll have to start getting planning now,and why send 92's abroad and store 90's etc if this is the future?

Click to expand...

They may not be the future in the short or medium term, but in the longer term they almost certainly will be.

By the time the 66's are withdrawn in mass (2040's ? ) I would think all main freight routes would be electrified and FOCs will be able to use dedicated electric locomotives such as 92's and newer AC classes on a lot more freights than they can today.

Any freights which have to start or finish the last bit of their journey on un-electrified routes will almost certainly be hauled by Electro-Diesels.

Electro-Diesels are probably the way forwards for freights as there will always be un-electrified parts of the freight network. The onboard diesel-engine can be more than a "last mile" engine. Engines in electro-diesels are already becoming rather powerful, as proven by GBRf's 73 refurbishment programme where they have replaced the old 650hp engine with a 1600hp one.
On a larger loco (CO-CO) you could probably already have 2000hp and in another 30~40 years these engines could be reaching 3000hp or more! This will be easily enough considering the "main lines" may all be electrified by then and the diesel engines will only come into use on quiet branch lines / yards / engineering possessions / coal handling points / sidings / industrial complexes so this will be more than power enough for this use.

Think you got your quotes muddled up there

It certainly was

Beveridges said:

There will always be a need for more power. Even the 70's, while an improvement over the previous Type 5's, are still not powerful enough. On a heavy train, they only have between 1 to 2 horsepower per tonne which means slow acceleration and slow speeds on inclines. What we really need is 6,000hp+ for general purpose freight. Currently only the Class 90 & 92 can offer this requirement.

Click to expand...

Really? I thought the whole purpose of using the 86s in tandem was precisely to overcome hp shortages? I agree that there will always be the need for more power but I think you can add the 86s to this elite group group. Interestingly they are all electrics!

Photo from today of them on the rails and coupled up ready to go. 70803 was leading then 804 and 805. Sounded like 803 and 804 were started up and ticking over.

Photo taken from my phone at around 1530 on 20 Feb 2014.

The 70s appear to be on the way to Eastleigh although they are running nearly 3 hours late

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O76475/2014/02/20/advanced

Nice of them to let 'us' know they were moving tonight, after checking all bloody day.

Beveridges said:

Is there no way GM could go beyond 2015 by building a lower-emission version of the 66? Possibly using the same body shell but with a more up-to-date GM power unit ?

Somehow I'm still not convinced that we have seen the last new order for sheds.

We've had nearly thirty years of more & more 59s/66s invading this country its about time it ended.

Click to expand...

GM have absolutely no chance of building any locomotives as EMD have been sold to Caterpillar through its wholly owned subsidiary Progress Rail Services Corporation. (about 2 years ago).
It often makes me chuckle when I read ranting posts on various internet forums from ill informed brits on the tiresome 66 subject. Don't worry though, Im one of them, its just that a lot of it is... well....... uninformed.
EMD are indeed still building locomotives and are as we speak developing the 710 engine to conform with the latest Tier5 emissions standard however, as this engine is the V16 4300HP example currently used in their SD70ace's, its very unlikely we'll see it on these shores anytime soon! With the current crap we have in the pipeline, that is unfortunate for the U.K.
What you all fail to recognise is that particular locomotive prime mover is the best this country has probably ever seen! Such a shame FL have learnt the hard way with a G.E product...... they used an untried unit in rail traction and it wont pay off! Il also put money on the fact that the 68's will fair little better.
On the subject of class 60's, these are also unfit for FL traffic due to a low 60 mph maximum speed.

If what you say in the above post is pretty much spot on,then I predict FL will be looking to Voith or other proven Vossloh models adapted for our loading guage.

Warbonnet said:

GM have absolutely no chance of building any locomotives as EMD have been sold to Caterpillar through its wholly owned subsidiary Progress Rail Services Corporation. (about 2 years ago).
It often makes me chuckle when I read ranting posts on various internet forums from ill informed brits on the tiresome 66 subject. Don't worry though, Im one of them, its just that a lot of it is... well....... uninformed.
EMD are indeed still building locomotives and are as we speak developing the 710 engine to conform with the latest Tier5 emissions standard however, as this engine is the V16 4300HP example currently used in their SD70ace's, its very unlikely we'll see it on these shores anytime soon! With the current crap we have in the pipeline, that is unfortunate for the U.K.
What you all fail to recognise is that particular locomotive prime mover is the best this country has probably ever seen! Such a shame FL have learnt the hard way with a G.E product...... they used an untried unit in rail traction and it wont pay off! Il also put money on the fact that the 68's will fair little better.
On the subject of class 60's, these are also unfit for FL traffic due to a low 60 mph maximum speed.

Click to expand...

But aren't the Frieghtliner 66/6's re-geared for 60mph running?, so i can't see why they wouldn't be unfit for purpose

43067 said:

But aren't the Frieghtliner 66/6's re-geared for 60mph running?, so i can't see why they wouldn't be unfit for purpose

Click to expand...

65mph.

There seems to be some confusion going on between generic freightliner container trains (as originally branded by BR) and the company Freightliner, with their intermodal and heavy haul divisions (Where a low geared, 60mph loco would be of some use).

Photohunter71 said:

If what you say in the above post is pretty much spot on,then I predict FL will be looking to Voith or other proven Vossloh models adapted for our loading guage.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't be at all surprised that this is the case in future!
It would have been a better idea from the outset though, if the 66 was built to a good standard rather than a price! (aka as cheap as possible).

Our loading gauge is so restrictive as to how much power we can have in a loco. I dare say if our loading gauge was anything like America'a, we'd have have tried, proven and trusted V12 4400 HP "Gevo" power units here as fitted to North American ES4400AC's instead of "going it alone" with a GE Jenbacher unit which as far as I know has not been used for rail traction until the class 70.

As far as high powered diesels are concerned, both EMD and GE tried 6000HP units in America and it was decided after lots of research, testing and money that the 'ideal' power was circa 4400HP . The 6000HP units were far from reliable and after only 10 years of use, they were either converted back to 4400HP or scrapped! The 6000HP unit was EMD's only forar into the 4 stroke engine! GE ofcourse used their own V16 6000HP unit, the locos being known as SD90 and AC6000 respectively. I would put money on the fact you'll never see such high powered diesels here, shoe horning such a monster into our loading gauge would be impossible.

On the subject of class 60's, these are also unfit for FL traffic due to a low 60 mph maximum speed.

Click to expand...

But they will be suitable for FL Heavy Haul

On the subject of class 60's, these are also unfit for FL traffic due to a low 60 mph maximum speed.

Click to expand...

But they will be suitable for FL Heavy Haul

Deleted

With the GM production line ending at last (thank Christ) FL are going to have to either go for 60's or take a chance with another unproven design like class 68/88 but after the unreliable Power haul they may be put off taking this chance again.

Nothing is ever going to be as reliable as a 66 ever again. The option used to be simple, order anything other than a 66 and your going to have more trouble. This is why 60's were previously never considered.

FL may be able to pick up a few more 66's yet as I expect a few will go off lease with DRS when the new 68's arrive.