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The Leigh Guided Busway construction project

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WatcherZero

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Compare the infrastructure spending in/around Greater Manchester this decade (rail electrification, Metrolink expansion, Ordsall Chord, new platforms at Piccadilly, Guided Busway...) with most of England and tell me that Lancashire is hard done by...

Government spending per head? yes, since over half the funding is local borrowing against future revenues and local increases in the transport levy (council tax slice that goes to tfgm).
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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In the first week of this month, the TfGM Leigh Guided Busway team have written to residents and businesses with regard to the bus priority update package on East Lancashire Road and enclosed a copy of the latest January 2014 project folded leaflet with each letter.

In the letter, notification is also given that as from Monday, 13th January 2014, utilities companies will be carrying out the next stage of works on the East Lancashire Road.
 

lancastrian

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Curious - I've been back too and I can't find either my previous reply or the post that triggered it. Possibly it was on one of the many other topics that covers this part of the world. If I find it I'll return and edit. Apologies for the confusion and especially if if it wasn't you in the first place!

It was to the effect that tram-trains don't meet rail crashworthiness standards, the hazard of collisions is addressed by extra train protection instead. And that no sensible consultant should be proposing a tram-train unless it is the best solution, offering both a through service between the railway and somewhere important the railway can't reach, and also still allowing trains to use the railway part of the route. If either of these isn't needed then a tram-train is probably the wrong answer.

Edit: it was this one http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1672482&postcount=175

Hi Edwin.

I have read the comment that we seemed to be debating, and I must agree with your comments. I am basically just a layman who reads a lot of information in both railway Journals and online, plus I am a supporter of all forms of rail improvements.

I can tell from your comments that you obviously know more about the subject than I do, and therefore I will bow to your greater knowledge.

Why should tram-train create isolation in the public transport network? When used properly it allows through journeys between destinations on the railway and the tramway without having to change en route.

I am sure that you are right about that but as far as I can tell the only successful usage of a Tram-Train concept has been on the Tyne & Wear Metro. with the Pelaw to Sunderland sharing with Network Rail. Plus as far as I am aware they just used the current metro trams.

I have just noticed that you have said that you are one of the consultants that I made comments about, please don't take that personally, as until now I have never discussed this matter with one.

My basic view was actually inline with your comments but obviously I failed to express myself well. I agree with your comment that many times Tram-Train are a answer looking for the question that does not yet exist. I do find that I can express myself better face to face than typing it.

In future as I read your comments I will have to make sure that I give a more reasoned response to them.
 

edwin_m

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Hi Edwin.

No problem at all. There are many misapprehensions out there about tram-train, both people who think it is never the right thing to do and people who think it is always the right thing to do. As so often in life the truth lies somewhere in between.

Tyne and Wear has so far been the only UK application similar to a tram-train, though strictly speaking it isn't a tram-train proper. This has been successful in linking Sunderland to the Metro much more cheaply than a dedicated route, though there were some mistakes made in the design. Also with pressure on rail capacity and the spread of 25kV electrification it's quite possible that it wouldn't have been approved if suggested today. The Rotherham route does also have transport purpose, as it provides an alternative to the single-line Holmes Chord which limits train frequencies at Rotherham, and also provids better links between Rotherham and the Don Valley.

Coming vaguely back on topic, the various tram-train proposals in the North West are based on the idea of bringing something like Metrolink standards of service to routes that cannot for whatever reason be taken out of the national rail network (though this would happen for some parts of some of the TfGM proposed routes). Some are more attractive than others but they all pass the basic test of providing better local connectivity by taking advantage of both the railway and the tram network.

In places like Manchester a lot of the local train services are limited in frequency by capacity around the main stations. Northern Hub helps with this but tram-train helps in another way by diverting some services onto tramways to avoid the busiest parts of the railway.

The classic example of tram-train is the German city of Karlsruhe. Here the main station is a long way from the city centre, but like most German cities it still had an extensive tram network and linking the two together allowed people to get where they wanted to be more quickly and without having to change from a train to a tram. This has led to spectacular ridership gains on some routes and there is now an extensive network of tram-train routes reaching several tens of miles out.
 

snowball

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Compared with other tram systems, the Tyne & Wear Metro is already quite trainy. It doesn't have any on-street sections, and has a higher voltage power supply than would be allowed if it did.
 

telstarbox

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Members suggesting that a heavy rail or Metrolink route would have been better may wish to read the Inspector's Report from the 2002 Public Inquiry into the Busway, specifically:

4.1.4.1 The old railway alignment had been protected in the Wigan Unitary Development Plan (UDP), between Leigh and Parr Brow, to preserve the option of rebuilding the railway; from Parr Brow the UDP had envisaged that the rebuilt railway would run north-east to a new junction with the Wigan-Manchester line at Walkden. However, a heavy rail link was now considered to be impracticable because of the delay, the lack of adequate forecast patronage to support the heavy construction costs involved, and the sheer organisational difficulty in achieving any such project under present legislation.

4.1.4.2 In addition to the problem of high railway construction costs there would be a need for an ongoing subsidy for a heavy rail option, unlike the busway. In Greater Manchester, heavy rail passenger subsidies in 2000/2001, including those on much more heavily-used lines than a line to Leigh would be, had averaged at £0.26 per passenger-kilometre. Such a subsidy would have to be paid either by the Strategic Rail Authority (SRA) or by the GMPTA, and as the SRA was unlikely to see such a line as a high priority this would mean that the money would have to come from the GMPTA and the local payers of Council Tax. A further drawback was that rail services would be less frequent than bus services. For many areas accessible directly by the busway, this would erode any time saving given by the higher railway running speeds.

4.1.4.3 Metrolink also would require an unrealistic annual patronage of 5 million passengers to justify it, and a 15km extension from its present end at Eccles to Leigh. The capital cost of such an extension would be in the region of £112m. Consideration had been given to the options of an entirely on-road system of bus priorities and an alternative which incorporated these measures to the east and the busway to the west. The busway offered the advantage of a narrow overall width with limited surfacing, on a dedicated traffic-free route, with a good ride and good correspondence between the bus floor and the kerb at stops, but with complete freedom for the busway services also to make use of other roads as part of their route. Such a system allowed space for a parallel recreation route which would have been impossible if the route had been used for a rail service, and this made a very economical use of land resources.

Full report - http://www.tfgm.com/buspriority/pages/website/pdfs/Leigh-Busway-Inspectors-Report.pdf
 
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Polo Mint

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What these people conveniently forget about when writing these reports are the potential local economy prospects (that can be claimed through tax). Also railway lines last for many years we are still using Victorian lines and infrastructure to this very day, so even if they did a lot of money to create we are benefiting from them.
 

WatcherZero

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They do factor the longevity of the asset into price comparisons but they dont last a century, they need to be renewed every 30-40 years and vehicles need to be replaced. While a bus may only last a decade compared to 30 years for a diesel when you compare both options over a 40 or 50 year time period the bus will still come out on top if there isnt a extremely large amount of passengers to carry and the economic benefits of a 10 minute bus frequency will outweigh a hourly rail service.

A bus service may have higher running costs in a direct comparison but rail would also need to pay off construction costs four times higher through the farebox and the tradeoff place where rail becomes the cheaper option may not occur within the lifetime of the assets.

For example the guided busway costs £30m in 2012 prices while a tramway was estimated at £112m in 2002 prices, even before inflation thats a multiple of the cost of a busway.
 
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WatcherZero

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And where does he spend 4/5 days a week living?

Even worse when you look at Euro MP's some of them dont even have a house in the region their representing.
 
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Bevan Price

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Can anyone say what the frequency of the Tyldesley Loop Line rail service was when the rail service was withdrawn.

Mainly hourly, all stations Man Vic to Liverpool Lime St. via Leigh, plus I think there were a few peak hour extras.
 

Polo Mint

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MP's spend most of their time at the '2nd home' (funded by taxpayers), which is in London, so they can attend Westminster.

MP's do not need to be born, or live in their constituency at all. For example the Labour Party regularly send in cronies to urban 'safe Labour' Northern seats, such as Ed Miliband, David Miliband, Peter Mandleson, Tony Blair, Shaun Woodward etc.. Do you really think these people know anything about Doncaster, South Shields and such like? All political parties are guilty of this.
 

yorksrob

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Can anyone say what the frequency of the Tyldesley Loop Line rail service was when the rail service was withdrawn.

Had the loop survived, it would undoubtedly be very handy for the current upgraded service on the Manchester - Newton le Willows line. I could imagine it being used to allow express trains to pass the stoppers in the same way that the Hallam line expresses pass stopping trains when they are in Castleford.
 

WatcherZero

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MP's spend most of their time at the '2nd home' (funded by taxpayers), which is in London, so they can attend Westminster.

MP's do not need to be born, or live in their constituency at all. For example the Labour Party regularly send in cronies to urban 'safe Labour' Northern seats, such as Ed Miliband, David Miliband, Peter Mandleson, Tony Blair, Shaun Woodward etc.. Do you really think these people know anything about Doncaster, South Shields and such like? All political parties are guilty of this.

As someone close to the process I can tell you that the candidates do have to live in the seat during party selection, whether thats staying with a freind, renting a house for 3 months or whatever they choose.
 

Phil6219

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Things appear to be moving at a crawl in my area, that said appearances can be deceiving.

They did the junction at Newearth Rd in Ellenbrook many months ago, apparently because they had to do it before a certain date or else the permissions would expire or something. Other than that at Ellenbrook they seem to have buldozed the old rail formation and there are diggers on site but as it goes uphill I can't see what they've done.

At Mossley Common for the section between there and Ellenbrook it is all buldozed and dug out to a wider width than the old rail formation and they seem to be trenching it in preparation for putting in pipe work. That said the "route" comes right up to the existing roadway but they haven't put a gradient in so there's a direct drop of around 25 feet to the busway. The other side of the road continues uphill and works have been going on there but it is hard to see, though it looks like the route has been laid with cement.

Near my house the route is laid out in cement and continues that way to Tyldesley. It doesn't look like they have been doing much else in over a fortnight though. From Tyldesley towards Leigh it just looks like they have been doing clearance and nothing else.

Still plenty of time for them to change their minds and give the people what they want, a proper railway instead ;)

Phil 8-)
 

WatcherZero

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They have already tendered for an operator, expected to be announced in the Autumn.
 

Nym

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We can only hope, the completion date would tie in nicely with Bolton line electrification and getting some EMUs up to Northern....

(I'd be electrifying it and giving 2tph to Victoria, picking up all stops from Walkden so that the Athertons can run fast)

It would be a new pair of curves and using an old formation towards Bolton to get to the station at Walkden, possibly adding an extra track back in to aid in regulation towards Manchester.
 

Nym

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I was meaning if this became a rail project, greenfeild with electrification and the extention of wires to Walkden on weekends it would be around the same opening time as Bolton Electrification.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I was meaning if this became a rail project, greenfeild with electrification and the extention of wires to Walkden on weekends it would be around the same opening time as Bolton Electrification.

May I ask which organisation has given you hope that your aspirations will be still a considered option at this point of time. Having discussed matters about the construction of the Leigh Guided Busway with both the TfGM team dedicated to it and Balfour Beatty, the approved contractors, are preparing the groundworks to receive a busway and not a heavy-rail railway.
 

Nym

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May I ask which organisation has given you hope that your aspirations will be still a considered option at this point of time. Having discussed matters about the construction of the Leigh Guided Busway with both the TfGM team dedicated to it and Balfour Beatty, the approved contractors, are preparing the groundworks to receive a busway and not a heavy-rail railway.

The institute of common sense. However, the likes of TfGM and the DfT are not members, and Belfour will just take money for whatever they can make the most on, I'm sure after the Cambridge Busway they'll be seeing ££££££££££....
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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The institute of common sense. However, the likes of TfGM and the DfT are not members, and Belfour will just take money for whatever they can make the most on, I'm sure after the Cambridge Busway they'll be seeing ££££££££££....

What capital funding can your named Institute of Common Sense provide towards the cost of the stated reconversion of the existing works of the Leigh Guided Busway to a heavy-rail transportation system ?
 

Nym

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What capital funding can your named Institute of Common Sense provide towards the cost of the stated reconversion of the existing works of the Leigh Guided Busway to a heavy-rail transportation system ?

Not allowing the idiocy to begin in the first place, and making use of innovative funding to close the £100m gap.

I'd much rather spend £270m on an asset that will last over 100 years than £170 on what is basically a road that needs specialist vehicles and additional maintenance when said road could be built for under £100m...(!)
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Not allowing the idiocy to begin in the first place, and making use of innovative funding to close the £100m gap.

Well, I will take you at your word, but I feel that I now must ask you to name the "real-life" Network Rail RUS document wherein your espoused rail project has appeared in a list of priorities in either CP5 or CP6 and their estimated costings for such a project that you previously had set out in a recent posting.
 

Nym

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Well, I will take you at your word, but I feel that I now must ask you to name the "real-life" Network Rail RUS document wherein your espoused rail project has appeared in a list of priorities in either CP5 or CP6 and their estimated costings for such a project that you previously had set out in a recent posting.

Who said Network Rail would have to pay for it, if TfGM can stump up the cash for a busway, they could do the same for a rail project, it just appears that they don't want to.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Who said Network Rail would have to pay for it, if TfGM can stump up the cash for a busway, they could do the same for a rail project, it just appears that they don't want to.

Have you had a chance to research the matter to its earliest proposal date and followed the ongoing history and matters that have had financial implications in the same time period ?
 

Nym

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Have you had a chance to research the matter to its earliest proposal date and followed the ongoing history and matters that have had financial implications in the same time period ?

No, but I studied the feasability documentation at the outset for the scheme as I have discribed. I also handle civil and electrical projects on a weekly basis, you get pretty good at estimating costs.
 
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