Privs from unstaffed stations

First post, be gentle. Also, hope it's the right forum.

My local station (on the Leeds-York line, served by Northern Rail) is unstaffed, but has ticket machines instead. I assume I can't buy a priv from the machine (to be honest, I haven't actually looked).

So, can I buy a ticket from the guard (or failing that, at my destination)? The problem is, at the station there are massive signs saying it's illegal to travel without a ticket. Could I be had up for fare-dodging if some RPIs jump on me before I can find someone willing to sell me a ticket?

Maybe I'm being overly anxious, but I really really don't want to jeopardise my priv entitlements if at all possible.

Officially, you should follow Condition 3, which is to buy a ticket (ie to the next stop) and pay the extra at the next opportunity.

In practice there are very few guards who won't sell you a priv on board. Some may just say 'hop on'.

It may be worth seeing if you can get something in writing from Northern if this is going to be a regular journey, and having them permit you to buy privs on board instead of messing around with part payments every time.

I agree that you should contact Northern (in writing/email). I have previously done the same with FCC, as my local station doesn't have a Permit to Travel machine, and the cheapest public fare available from the TVM is more expensive than my PRIV journey (resulting in overpayment if the destination ticket office is also closed).

The advice from RSTL doesn't take account of non-availability of Permit to Travel in penalty fare areas.

Thanks people!

Section 3.4 of the ATOC conditions of use state that if no facilities exist at the station you start your journey from you can buy your ticket from either the guard or at your destination.

Link.

Just ask the guard as you board. Nearly all Northern guards will fully understand the situation and should only be too happy to sell you a Priv.

Jdrowlands said:

Just ask the guard as you board. Nearly all Northern guards will fully understand the situation and should only be too happy to sell you a Priv.

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And if you get one of those who doesn't understand the situation?

camelopard said:

My local station (on the Leeds-York line, served by Northern Rail) is unstaffed, but has ticket machines instead. I assume I can't buy a priv from the machine (to be honest, I haven't actually looked).

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The York-Leeds line? There's two.. but I guess you mean via Garforth, as otherwise you'd probably say the "Harrogate line".

I am familiar with all these stations (even Ulleskelf ) and only one of those matches the description*, so I know which station you're referring to, but won't refer to it by name in case you wish for it to be anonymous.

(* Assuming NRE is accurate)

camelopard said:

So, can I buy a ticket from the guard (or failing that, at my destination)? The problem is, at the station there are massive signs saying it's illegal to travel without a ticket. Could I be had up for fare-dodging if some RPIs jump on me before I can find someone willing to sell me a ticket?

Maybe I'm being overly anxious, but I really really don't want to jeopardise my priv entitlements if at all possible.

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Northern seem to want to scare people, but they are happy for you to buy on board or, as you say, at your destination, if there is no opportunity to purchase the correct ticket at your destination.

Note that some TOCs enforce NRCoC Condition 3, which appears to require you to buy a ticket from the machine if possible e.g. a single (at non-discounted rate) to the next stop, and then an excess to the appropriate ticket with your discount. Obviously that's a ridiculous faff, and hopefully one day someone will ask all Train Companies to disclose whether or not they enforce Condition 3.

Northern do not enforce Condition 3.

camelopard said:

First post, be gentle. Also, hope it's the right forum.....

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Welcome to the forum.

camelopard said:

.... I assume I can't buy a priv from the machine (to be honest, I haven't actually looked)....

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Self service ticket machines (TVMs) can't sell Priv tickets. If they did everyone would buy them "by accident" in some sort of "genuine mistake" and would vow "never to do it again" when they get "caught in a revenue trap".

camelopard said:

....My local station (on the Leeds-York line, served by Northern Rail) is unstaffed, but has ticket machines instead.....

....So, can I buy a ticket from the guard (or failing that, at my destination)? The problem is, at the station there are massive signs saying it's illegal to travel without a ticket. Could I be had up for fare-dodging if some RPIs jump on me before I can find someone willing to sell me a ticket?

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The ATOC website has a staff section which, at times, can be a little confusing, but it does say that, in areas not covered by a Penalty Fares Scheme, you can buy Priv tickets onboard where there is not an open ticket office at the origin station. Northern does not operate a Penalty Fares Scheme.

camelopard said:

....Maybe I'm being overly anxious, but I really really don't want to jeopardise my priv entitlements if at all possible.

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Always better to be safe than sorry.

wouldnt have thought you'd have a problem... as the NRCoC says buy your ticket at your first opportunity... if the machine doesnt allow priv then surely your first opportunity is on the train itself?

What I would do is approach the guard as soon as you get on the train, even if it means knocking on the cab door then atleast if you get a ticket off him/her straight away you will be covered should you get stopped elsewhere.

Also remember the guard themselves have probably been in the same boat at some point and will completely understand

It'd be nice if TOCs were clear that all tickets that can't be bought from TVMs would be available onboard, not just PRIV tickets.

coxxy said:

wouldnt have thought you'd have a problem... as the NRCoC says buy your ticket at your first opportunity... if the machine doesnt allow priv then surely your first opportunity is on the train itself?...

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That is not what the NRCoC says, read Condition 3. In Penalty Fares Scheme areas, simply boarding the train could result in a Penalty Fare, even for staff.

coxxy said:

....What I would do is approach the guard as soon as you get on the train, even if it means knocking on the cab door then atleast if you get a ticket off him/her straight away you will be covered should you get stopped elsewhere.

Also remember the guard themselves have probably been in the same boat at some point and will completely understand

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Staff are requested to seek the guard, however, on some trains this is not practical.

starmill said:

It'd be nice if TOCs were clear that all tickets that can't be bought from TVMs would be available onboard, not just PRIV tickets.

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In many cases, condition 3 is impractical for Priv tickets, it will be more so when Priv is allowed on Off-Peak tickets, however, this is quite rarely the case for non-Priv tickets. A permit to travel machine at each station would solve the problem, and then Penalty Fares could be introduced nationwide, and we'd all be happy........

So in a PF area, going one stop, you have to pay 4x the fare and apply for a refund of 3/4 of it?

yorkie said:

So in a PF area, going one stop, you have to pay 4x the fare and apply for a refund of 3/4 of it?

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Basically? Yes, though ideally there is a Permit to Travel machine at the origin station. It's not just 'passengers' that get stiffed in these situations, contrary to popular belief.

hairyhandedfool said:

Self service ticket machines (TVMs) can't sell Priv tickets. If they did everyone would buy them "by accident" in some sort of "genuine mistake" and would vow "never to do it again" when they get "caught in a revenue trap".

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And yet they sell Child tickets and used to sell the 50p concessionary singles. Why are people less likely to try and buy those "accidentally"?

If you try and buy a ticket in West Yorkshire off peak now the machines try to sell the current half price concessionary tickets saying "there is a cheaper ticket availble" without explaining who they're for. Surely that's far more likely to result in people buying the wrong ticket?

hairyhandedfool said:

That is not what the NRCoC says, read Condition 3. In Penalty Fares Scheme areas, simply boarding the train could result in a Penalty Fare, even for staff.



Staff are requested to seek the guard, however, on some trains this is not practical.



In many cases, condition 3 is impractical for Priv tickets, it will be more so when Priv is allowed on Off-Peak tickets, however, this is quite rarely the case for non-Priv tickets. A permit to travel machine at each station would solve the problem, and then Penalty Fares could be introduced nationwide, and we'd all be happy........

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My mistake railway bye-laws even not NRCoC...

If its Northern Rail you will most definitely see the guard on the platform doing his door procedures... Even if you were able to have a quick work with him then and then sort the tickets out on board.

I thought if you had a Priv pass and were unable to buy a discounted ticket you could by a child one to cover you for the journey or is that just incorrect information?

hairyhandedfool said:

Basically? Yes, though ideally there is a Permit to Travel machine at the origin station. It's not just 'passengers' that get stiffed in these situations, contrary to popular belief.

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There's no need for comments like that. The railway is there to serve it's passengers.

And I'm struggling with what aspects of Condition 3 you do think are practical. Have I not sufficiently demonstrated it is a complete and utter waste of everyone's time?

Just to be clear, because Priv tickets can only be sold at staffed ticket offices, Staff Travel Card holders are allowed to board a train and pay at the first opportunity if the ticket office isn't open. There is no requirement for them to buy anything from a TVM.

thedbdiboy said:

Just to be clear, because Priv tickets can only be sold at staffed ticket offices, Staff Travel Card holders are allowed to board a train and pay at the first opportunity if the ticket office isn't open. There is no requirement for them to buy anything from a TVM.

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Are you sure?

Yes, I believe he is, and I think a notice went out in that regard too a while back. All TOCs I believe agreed to this in principle.

6Gman said:

thedbdiboy said:

Just to be clear, because Priv tickets can only be sold at staffed ticket offices, Staff Travel Card holders are allowed to board a train and pay at the first opportunity if the ticket office isn't open. There is no requirement for them to buy anything from a TVM.

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Are you sure?

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I've seen the brief on a RPI's blackberry and on the Newsrail Express. Given it keeps going out, I can't be the only one who's had problems in this area. Many staff either don't read briefs or are unable to take the message being conveyed in. Communication of information is something that needs to be worked on.

The other week I left Southwark station at the Waterloo East exit for the first time. It was around 7pm. The tube ticket office was shut and I wanted a Priv single to Lewisham. The Southeastern barrier staff refused to let me through - they said if I didn't want to pay the full fare, I should ask the Underground staff to let me back in and out the other exit, walk to Waterloo and buy a Priv ticket from there. They offered two alternatives - buy a ticket from the TVM to Charing Cross then obtain a Priv ticket from the ticket office, or use Oyster PAYG which they claimed could be fully refunded at the Southeastern ticket office at Lewisham. One of the staff was a RPI and came out with "I can let you through, but then I charge you big fine!"

I had another problem at Limehouse recently when wishing to go to Grays just after 9pm. Ideally I would have liked a Barking to Grays return as my Oyster Card was valid as far as Barking, but would've settled for a ticket from Limehouse. The barrier staff refused to let me through without a ticket. One of them accompanied me to the TVM and said I should buy a £6.10 Off Peak Day Return with a H.M. Forces or Family and Friends discount, because the images of those railcard on the TVM looked like a Priv card. The Priv day return from Limehouse to Grays is £2.50.

In the past I have bought a ticket more expensive than the Priv ticket I wanted in line with Condition 3 for impromptu late evening trips. Tried to get a refund or at least a credit against another ticket at ticket offices the next day and surprise surprise, no clerk would touch them with a bargepole.

The problem with some staff having a strange attitude towards Priv holders who were unable to obtain a Priv ticket is still well and truly ongoing. It would be great if the discount could be enabled on all TVMs. Or in the London area, allowing TOCNE Privs to be loaded onto an Oyster Card. Nowadays it is possible to load a "TfL Rail Only" Priv discount. By that logic it should be possible to have a "NR Only" discount. Surely must be easier than successfully instilling a culture of common sense as per those briefs?

6Gman said:

Are you sure?

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Yes - it is the official RSTL policy, agreed by TOCs (although not always understood by all staff....)

Deerfold said:

And yet they sell Child tickets and used to sell the 50p concessionary singles. Why are people less likely to try and buy those "accidentally"?

If you try and buy a ticket in West Yorkshire off peak now the machines try to sell the current half price concessionary tickets saying "there is a cheaper ticket availble" without explaining who they're for. Surely that's far more likely to result in people buying the wrong ticket?

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They buy those Concession tickets "accidentally" all the time, even from the SSTMs which don't have the pop up "cheaper ticket" message.

Thankfully it won't be a problem from Sunday as the Concession tickets are being withdrawn and are being replaced with a railcard discount on our ticket machines. I bet the railcard won't feature on the SSTMs so lots of geniune concessions who do use the machines will be confused and either buying child tickets or wanting to buy on board.

kwvr45 said:

I bet the railcard won't feature on the SSTMs so lots of geniune concessions who do use the machines will be confused and either buying child tickets or wanting to buy on board.

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Probably correct - the functionality will disappear from the machines and then Northern will be obliged to issue them these discounted tickets onboard if there was no open ticket office because they have stated they do not use Condition 3.

Hypothetically if the booking office is closed but the barriers are still in operation, will the barrier staff let you through to buy your priv on the train as the machines do not issue priv?

thedbdiboy said:

Just to be clear, because Priv tickets can only be sold at staffed ticket offices, Staff Travel Card holders are allowed to board a train and pay at the first opportunity if the ticket office isn't open. There is no requirement for them to buy anything from a TVM.

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bb21 said:

Yes, I believe he is, and I think a notice went out in that regard too a while back. All TOCs I believe agreed to this in principle.

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Then someone better tell RSTL and ATOC to change the information on the staff travel webpages.

RJ said:

I've seen the brief on a RPI's blackberry and on the Newsrail Express....

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I haven't seen Newsrail Express since iKB came online and even before that I don't recall seeing information about this issue for a long time before that, and as for staff briefings about it.......

On the atoc website

'The time restrictions applying to these tickets will also apply to the “Priv” discounted ticket. “Priv” fares continue to be available at ticket offices and on train (if the ticket office is not open on at the departure station).'