Thoughts on smart card ticketing

Hadders · 26 Feb 2015

I'm all for using technology but I'm struggling to see the benefits to passengers of smart ticketing.

Take the Cambridge-London Abellio trial.

Is it an Any Permitted routeing allowing travel on Great Northern as well as Abellio?
Does it allow you to take a break of journey en-route?
Can you start or finish short?
Can you split your tickets with smart cards or use a combination of smart card and paper (without having to get off the train to touch in/out)?

I have a strong feeling that smart ticketing will be used as a way of getting rid of a number of rights we currently enjoy.

RailUK Forums

MikeWh · 27 Feb 2015

Skimpot flyer said:
What is the situation with Oyster, on sections of route served by both Tube and National Rail trains (e.g West Ham to Upminster) ?
Is someone touching in at West Ham, and touching out at Upminster Bridge, permitted to travel by c2c train to Upminster, and back one stop? I'd imagine the NRCoC forbid this, but what about Oyster terms and conditions? If Oyster does not have similar double-back-forbidden terms, anyone getting an RPI reading their Oyster would just claim to have been on the District Line, missed their stop, and was travelling back.

The rules of Oyster state that you must touch in at the start of your journey and out at the end and have enough credit to cover the journey you intend to make. Oyster makes no distinction between different operators on the same route and has no problem with doubling back as long as the maximum journey time between origin and destination is not exceeded.

So yes, West Ham to Upminster Bridge via Upminster is allowed. So is Euston to Watford High Street via Watford Junction; Liverpool Street to Brentwood via Shenfield and loads of other examples. You can't leave the station where you commence the double back so there isn't really any benefit apart from time.

jon0844 · 27 Feb 2015

The AGA trial is just on one route, so no usage on GTR. It's a trial and you'll have to agree with the T&Cs or not take part. Chances are you'll be given some element of free travel/credit though.

radamfi · 27 Feb 2015

Hadders said:
I'm all for using technology but I'm struggling to see the benefits to passengers of smart ticketing.

The main benefit is not having to queue to pick up tickets from a machine, which is clearly a massive benefit as it enables spontaneous trips to be made without having to worry about how long you need to pick up the ticket.

If you are simply using a mobile phone to carry your ticket, like for example with the German Handy Ticket, there is no validity disadvantage compared to the paper equivalent. The DB Handy Ticket can be changed and refunded with the same or better conditions.

If you touch in and touch out without buying a ticket beforehand, then you might have a loss of break of journey rights, for example that is the case with Oyster. But it doesn't necessarily have to be that way with end of day processing as it could calculate the best fare across all journeys. This wouldn't help to allow break of journey overnight unless it was clever enough to calculate the best fare across more than one day.

But touch in and touch out allows you to change your journey while travelling without needing to amend a paper ticket. Cutting your journey short with a paper ticket is unlikely to be cheaper.

FenMan · 27 Feb 2015

radamfi said:
Cutting your journey short with a paper ticket is unlikely to be cheaper.

There are many examples where starting or stopping short is a cheaper option. Indeed I use two such tickets frequently and wouldn't want to lose that utility.

Thank goodness for mobile ticketing apps that allow me to purchase these tickets without hassle.

radamfi · 27 Feb 2015

FenMan said:
There are many examples where starting or stopping short is a cheaper option. Indeed I use two such tickets frequently and wouldn't want to lose that utility.

Yes if you are buying a longer distance ticket at the outset with the knowledge that you are getting off early to save money because of fare anomalies then smartcards would prevent that. But what I was really talking about was changing your mind about your destination while travelling. Then it would be hassle changing your ticket to a cheaper, shorter distance trip, assuming that is even allowed and even if it is, there might be admin fees.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

FenMan said:
Thank goodness for mobile ticketing apps that allow me to purchase these tickets without hassle.

There is still hassle in picking up the tickets. There should be no need to pick up the ticket if it is on your phone.

infobleep · 27 Feb 2015

Skimpot flyer said:
If a national Oyster-like system were installed, and the entire GN route were to have readers fitted, a thought occurred to me.

Would people wanting to go from, say Finsbury Park to Welham Green, then be able to get a semi-fast train to Hatfield, and travel back one stop? As far as I understand it, you cannot buy a paper ticket offering 'via Hatfield' for a Finsbury Park to Welham Green journey. ("No fares have been found for your selected journey. Please try adjusting your dates and times for travel")
If attempting to travel this way, and an RPI happened to inspect your ticket between Potters Bar and Hatfield, you would clearly be about to travel beyond the validity of your ticket, and presumably incurring the risk of a Penalty Fare?

With a 'touch in, touch out' system, wouldn't such journeys then be possible, legitimately? So long as you DID touch in and out, you would be charged the FPK-WMG fare, as the system would not know how you got between those two stations.

There are probably better examples, where being able to do a 'back one stop' journey, would save a passenger a lot of time.

Do rail companies care about people saving time when travelling on more than one service.

Clip · 27 Feb 2015

jonmorris0844 said:
Yes, I can definitely see that happening. But, I can only hope that we might see staff moved to the concourses and platforms, keeping stations staffed whenever trains run - and being on hand with tablets to help passengers.

I think there are many benefits of keeping staff at stations and personally consider it a no-brainer.

Larger stations maybe but the cost savings are too great to keep them at smaller stations

pne · 27 Feb 2015

arb said:
Though there's no indication of what you have to do at B, or how long you have to wait there, if you *want* to split tickets there whilst on a through journey, because it's cheaper than a through ticket!

Presumably the point (to the TOC) of introducing smart cards is to move to point-to-point tickets and do away with splitting - travelling from A to B will then always cost the same regardless of whether you had wanted to split at C or at D+E or not at all.

Dent · 28 Feb 2015

Most of the many technical issues, and the losses of user rights associated with most of these "smart" ticket systems have already been mentioned. Another issue is the number of separate, operator-specific systems that are being created. Having to use multiple, incompatible smart cards for any journey involving more than one operator would cause all sorts of problems.

Most of the "problems" these schemes solve are trivial, while the problems they cause are far more serious.

anme · 28 Feb 2015

Dent said:
Most of the many technical issues, and the losses of user rights associated with most of these "smart" ticket systems have already been mentioned. Another issue is the number of separate, operator-specific systems that are being created. Having to use multiple, incompatible smart cards for any journey involving more than one operator would cause all sorts of problems.

Most of the "problems" these schemes solve are trivial, while the problems they cause are far more serious.

I don't think that's true. The fact that you don't have to queue up and buy/collect a ticket in advance is a far greater benefit to the large majority of people than the possible loss of relatively obscure and relatively little used "rights". And that's not the only benefit. No ticketing system is perfect - certainly not the current one - and if we wait for the perfect system there will never be any progress.

I agree with you about operator specific systems, but as I understand it, in the long run the system will be universal. The cards are all actually the same, but just have different branding (which is indeed really stupid).

Also, smart ticketing is unlikely to fully replace paper tickets in the foreseeable future.

Hadders · 28 Feb 2015

Dent said:
Most of the "problems" these schemes solve are trivial, while the problems they cause are far more serious.

I agree with this.

It's all very well to say the removal of some rights that are not widely used is trivial (although I wouldn't call the removal of split tickets trivial) but if these rights are removed it will result in prices going up.

Of course TOC's will claim simplification etc. and I'm sure they mean well but I remain to be convinced.

anme · 28 Feb 2015

Hadders said:
I agree with this.

It's all very well to say the removal of some rights that are not widely used is trivial (although I wouldn't call the removal of split tickets trivial) but if these rights are removed it will result in prices going up.

Of course TOC's will claim simplification etc. and I'm sure they mean well but I remain to be convinced.

Would you call the problem of having to arrive at a station twenty minutes early so you can be reasonably sure of being able to buy a ticket "trivial"? Do you think automatic price capping is a minor benefit? There are pros and cons to any ticketing system.

I'm not in favour of reducing passenger rights, e.g. by banning split ticketing (which could already be done even for paper tickets by amending the conditions of carriage), but the negative views on new technology here seem to be based on some real worst case thinking. If we look at the Netherlands, which has probably the most extensive smart card ticketing on a national railway, it's still possible to travel using paper tickets, and to split tickets (although I'm not sure if that's ever a benefit there).

SpacePhoenix · 28 Feb 2015

If they're going to bring in smart card ticketing for railways, then they should do so for buses as well. The basic tech for reading the card can't be too much different from system to system, it'd probably just mean new firmware for the ticket machines

Dent · 28 Feb 2015

anme said:
I agree with you about operator specific systems, but as I understand it, in the long run the system will be universal. The cards are all actually the same, but just have different branding (which is indeed really stupid).

Which of the many systems that are being introduced will be universal, and what is the point of introducing all the others if the plan is for them all to be replaced by "the one" system anyway?

Since all the systems being introduced are proprietary and operated by particular TOC there isn't really potential for any of them to become universal, certainly not while each TOC is trying to push their own system over everyone else's.

The TOCs haven't even agreed what they're trying to do. Is it a card to hold pre-purchased tickets? If so then which ticket types, and purchased how? Is it an Oyster-style PAYG system? If so then will it feature any kind of capping? If so then capped according to what criteria? Is it something else entirely? Is it a smart card? Is it Mobile based? Is it bank card based? Is it printer based? There isn't even a shared goal, let alone any cooperative effort to achieve it.

The cards are not all the same. They may be based on the technology, but they way they are coded means that they can only be used with one operator, and tickets can only be purchased through that operator's facilities. Even some with the same brand (think "The Key") are incompatible with each other.

A well-designed, operator-neutral system may have benefits, but that is not what any of the proprietary operator-specific systems being introduced are.

cool110 · 28 Feb 2015

SpacePhoenix said:
If they're going to bring in smart card ticketing for railways, then they should do so for buses as well. The basic tech for reading the card can't be too much different from system to system, it'd probably just mean new firmware for the ticket machines

Most buses already have all the equipment needed for the purposes of reading ENCTS passes. So as you say they'll just need a software update to accept the new tickets and/or PAYG systems.

Hadders · 28 Feb 2015

anme said:
Would you call the problem of having to arrive at a station twenty minutes early so you can be reasonably sure of being able to buy a ticket "trivial"? Do you think automatic price capping is a minor benefit? There are pros and cons to any ticketing system.

I'm not in favour of reducing passenger rights, e.g. by banning split ticketing (which could already be done even for paper tickets by amending the conditions of carriage), but the negative views on new technology here seem to be based on some real worst case thinking. If we look at the Netherlands, which has probably the most extensive smart card ticketing on a national railway, it's still possible to travel using paper tickets, and to split tickets (although I'm not sure if that's ever a benefit there).

I'm not against technology.

However do you really think it's going to solve everything? Will we end up with a joined up system where you can purchase a through ticket for any operator via a single app and walk straight onto the train and with a pay as you go cap with an elaborate system of capping to ensure you always pay the best price?

Or will we end up with a fudge of operator specific systems that don't talk to each other. You'll end up buying on line but will need to visit a TVM prior to travel to 'load' the ticket onto your card. You'll need to validate your ticket prior to travel on the platform validator etc.

I know what I'd like but I know what we'll end up getting...

jon0844 · 28 Feb 2015

The DfT needs to take the lead on this, to make sure we get a system that's 'fit for purpose'. I hope that is the view of the DfT, hence the requirement in every new franchise to invest in smartcards.

ATOC on its own will only think of its own interests.

We might have a privately run railway, but the Government will have to step in.

Dent · 28 Feb 2015

I think the time is overdue for a franchise condition that all ticketing products must be available through a central system so that any retailer can sell them on the same terms at the same price.

That is what the Rail Settlement Plan was supposed to do, what happened to it?

radamfi · 28 Feb 2015

First replaced all their bus ticket machines with great fanfare a few years ago, so that they could all accept smartcards and contactless cards. They said that we would be able to pay for our fares by touch in, touch out. We are still waiting.

The Netherlands has a number of private bus and rail franchises, as well as a nationalised railway company and three municipal bus/tram/metro operators. When the OV-Chipkaart began to be rolled out, some companies were more keen than others and so for a while it was not accepted everywhere. So the government sorted it out and forced them all to accept the card. So now there is only one card needed for all these companies.

Deerfold · 28 Feb 2015

radamfi said:
First replaced all their bus ticket machines with great fanfare a few years ago, so that they could all accept smartcards and contactless cards. They said that we would be able to pay for our fares by touch in, touch out. We are still waiting.

Interesting.

I've had several First drivers stop me touching an MCard in West Yorkshire to the reader on the machine as apparently it causes the ticket machine to crash and puts it out of action for several minutes.

Hadders · 28 Feb 2015

Can you honestly see the DfT doing that over here though?

Agent_c · 28 Feb 2015

Dent said:
I think the time is overdue for a franchise condition that all ticketing products must be available through a central system so that any retailer can sell them on the same terms at the same price.

That is what the Rail Settlement Plan was supposed to do, what happened to it?

Could that actually be done given the existence of local passenger executive tickets?

Deerfold · 28 Feb 2015

Agent_c said:
Could that actually be done given the existence of local passenger executive tickets?

It should certainly be easier to put them on a well-planned Smartcard system than ensure you have correct stock available as at present.

Dent · 28 Feb 2015

Agent_c said:
Could that actually be done given the existence of local passenger executive tickets?

There is no good reason that publicly available PTE tickets couldn't be made available through all TOCs, indeed tickets such as London Travelcards already are.

There may have to be a few exceptions for restricted products not created by a TOC. The point is to make sure integrated ticketing doesn't disintegrate into a mess of operator-specific systems.

Bob Ames · 28 Feb 2015

Dent said:
The TOCs haven't even agreed what they're trying to do. Is it a card to hold pre-purchased tickets? If so then which ticket types, and purchased how? Is it an Oyster-style PAYG system? If so then will it feature any kind of capping? If so then capped according to what criteria? Is it something else entirely? Is it a smart card? Is it Mobile based? Is it bank card based? Is it printer based? There isn't even a shared goal, let alone any cooperative effort to achieve it.

I take your point, but considering how fast the technology is evolving, I think it would be a mistake to settle on a particular system at this stage in the game. Let the TOCs build their competing systems and a winner will eventually emerge...

Deerfold · 28 Feb 2015

Bob Ames said:
I take your point, but considering how fast the technology is evolving, I think it would be a mistake to settle on a particular system at this stage in the game. Let the TOCs build their competing systems and a winner will eventually emerge...

Really?

So it's better to fill the country with incompatible systems which people will have to learn how to use. And then pay to do it all again for all the areas which didn't get the winning system?

JaJaWa · 28 Feb 2015

I think this is related to what Abellio are trialling on Greater Anglia and are planning to roll out across ScotRail.

Hands-free mobile ticketing demonstration

TICKETING: A proof-of-concept smartphone rail ticketing app which would not require passengers take their phones out of their pockets is being developed by New York-based transport and event payment technology specialist Bytemark.

Ticket gates would use Bluetooth wireless technology to communicate with the app as the passenger walks through the gate line, activating a ticket within the app and displaying a confirmation message on the phone. Fares could be calculated from the entry and exit points if required, with the passenger billed appropriately. The app would also offer timetable and real-time train running information.

The development contract was awarded under the UKs FutureRailway cross-industry technology development programme, and the prototype system is to be demonstrated at a disused London Underground station. Bytemark CEO Micah Bergdale hopes to be able to offer a commercialised product to train operators next year.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/technology/single-view/view/hands-free-mobile-ticketing-demonstration.html

Agent_c · 28 Feb 2015

I hope it works with the system SPT wasted cash on for the subway.

Dent · 28 Feb 2015

Bob Ames said:
I take your point, but considering how fast the technology is evolving, I think it would be a mistake to settle on a particular system at this stage in the game. Let the TOCs build their competing systems and a winner will eventually emerge...

I think it's a mistake to think of creating a serious ticketing solution as a game.

There will never be a "winner" because there is no way that all but one TOC will give up control to a proprietary system, owned and controlled by a rival company, and directly competing against their own system that they are trying to push onto everyone else.

There can be only losers, and the biggest looser will be the customer.

Thoughts on smart card ticketing

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