Plaid Cymru: We'd electrify all the main Welsh lines

QueensCurve · 10 Apr 2015

Paul Sidorczuk said:
Perhaps they have just discovered a new gold mine in the Dolgellau area and they will be using the proceeds from the sale of the gold to the Indian jewellery market, as there is a never-ending demand for that particular metal over there....

The Brand New Monty Python Papperbok advertised a series of commemorative medallions in Welsh Silver. The footnote defined Welsh Silver as a beautiful alloy of bakelite and Tin.

RailUK Forums

The Ham · 10 Apr 2015

jcollins said:
Based on the forecasts it's possible that any of the below Coalitions/pacts could have just below the required 325 seats meaning a party with a small number of seats (UKIP, Greens, Plaid Cymru etc.) could make up the small shortfall:
* Conservatives + Lib Dems
* Labour + Lib Dems
* Labour + SNP
* Conservatives + DUP

(I'm presuming we won't see Labour+Conservatives, Conservatives+SNP or Labour+DUP.)

Although if we see 5 or 6 parties with more than 10 seats it could well be that the party with the most seats could pick and choose who they align themselves with depending on what they want to vote through with various offers being made to get the support that they need.

Given how much an election costs each party and the result is unlikely to change overly much (at least in the first few years) I would doubt that any of the main parties would be too keen to push for a vote which causes a new election to be required. I would also think that such a move could cause some people to change their voting habits to punish such a party for causing a new election, partly as election coverage tends not to make for the most interesting of news stories for a lot of people.

D60 · 10 Apr 2015

TheKnightWho said:
I don't disagree. I'm saying that looking at where European funding is going and making out like it's some big conspiracy to rule the UK from Brussels is madness.

You're a bit behind the times..
What you describe and what is all too apparent to the unblinkered, was mocked and derided as a 'conspiracy' in the 70s and 80s.. And is now acknowledged and described openly by its advocates as the 'european project'.. as they no longer even attempt to conceal the reality..

pemma · 10 Apr 2015

D60 said:
You're a bit behind the times..
What you describe and what is all too apparent to the unblinkered, was mocked and derided as a 'conspiracy' in the 70s and 80s.. And is now acknowledged and described openly by its advocates as the 'european project'.. as they no longer even attempt to conceal the reality..

The 70s and 80s have emerged as a period when many TV personalities, teachers, MPs, religious persons and police officers broke the law and the government actively tried to cover many of them up because they wanted the public to think all those people as highly respectful people who would never even contemplate an an act which should have put them in prison.

The Thames Television documentary "Death on the Rock": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_on_the_Rock seemed shocking at the time but if every cover up had been reported in the same way by the media, the public would have lost trust of the Thatcher government long before the introduction of Poll Tax.

6Gman · 10 Apr 2015

merlodlliw said:
This article a few days old, came as an eye opener to me, I hope Plaid get to grips with it, as yet it appears no comment from them.

Just for the record, Aled Roberts - who is raising this issue - is a Liberal Democrat Assembly Member so not sure what Plaid's role is ...

merlodlliw · 11 Apr 2015

6Gman said:
Just for the record, Aled Roberts - who is raising this issue - is a Liberal Democrat Assembly Member so not sure what Plaid's role is ...

would have expected Plaid who fully support EU to have raised concerns about the issue,especially their North Wales elected members,Aled Roberts is a listed North Wales member,politics aside he his a total rail supporter,unlike others who remain silent on rail in North Wales.

TheKnightWho · 11 Apr 2015

D60 said:
You're a bit behind the times..
What you describe and what is all too apparent to the unblinkered, was mocked and derided as a 'conspiracy' in the 70s and 80s.. And is now acknowledged and described openly by its advocates as the 'european project'.. as they no longer even attempt to conceal the reality..

You mean the European project that allocates its own funding where it wants, which is partially decided by British MEPs?

That isn't a conspiracy. It's literally one of the purposes of the whole thing and well-advertised. Christ, the mental contortions people go through to demonise the EU because it's giving away cash is frankly hilarious. Or are you going to argue that it's all cash it's nicked from the UK? Cash that wouldn't be raised if we weren't a member etc.

TDK · 11 Apr 2015

TheKnightWho said:
The expensive bits are the clearance works, rather than the wires themselves. Does anyone know what would be needed?

I'm not sure assuming that the WG wouldn't pay for the English bits of the line is fair: after all, they stand to gain a lot from it, even though it's technically in England.

They are paying for the Wrexham to Chester redouble where 90% of it is in England, however if they had realised this at the outset they may have done things different.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Okay so this is a proposal:- below are some factors to take into consideration:-

Cardiff to Crewe, Electrify it to Before Hereford then where will the money come from to electrify it from just before Hereford to Crewe? All in England

Cardiff to Chester once again electrify it from Cardiff to before Hereford and also between Gobowen and Rossett the rest is in England where will the money come from?

Electrify it from Shotton to Holyhead, will the North Wales coast trains start from Shotton? Will it be diesel from Manchester to Chester? Will they electrify from Crewe to Chester considering the huge cost?

Once again this is just political propaganda from someone who just does not understand the railway network and the segmentation involved and are just trying to win Welsh votes, in reality the only time any Welsh rail network will be electrified when the trains originate in England will be after the English sections have been done.

HSTEd · 11 Apr 2015

Better to spend the resources on ironically rural electrification in West Wales - isn't West of Swansea surprisingly self contained?

kieron · 11 Apr 2015

TDK said:
Okay so this is a proposal:- below are some factors to take into consideration:-

It seems only to be your proposal, though. As you describe it below as "political propaganda from someone who just does not understand the rail network", I can't work out why you posted it in the first place.

Unless you are actually standing in the general election yourself?

Honestly, road upgrades don't suddenly start and end when they hit a border, so I can't imagine why you think rail ones ever would.

D60 · 12 Apr 2015

TheKnightWho said:
You mean the European project that allocates its own funding where it wants, which is partially decided by British MEPs?

That isn't a conspiracy. It's literally one of the purposes of the whole thing and well-advertised. Christ, the mental contortions people go through to demonise the EU because it's giving away cash is frankly hilarious. Or are you going to argue that it's all cash it's nicked from the UK? Cash that wouldn't be raised if we weren't a member etc.

One of the functions of government in the modern age is deciding where transport funding goes..
The Daily Post article quoted above reveals much more of the reality than is usually the case while domestic politicians and vested-interest media still seek to prop up the charade..
That in truth, much more of our governance is derived from eu decisions than seems to be commonly realised..
So no, not a 'conspiracy' as you twice tried to assert.. rather the reality of how we are now 'ruled', as you quite quaintly and archaically put it..

LNW-GW Joint · 12 Apr 2015

D60 said:
One of the functions of government in the modern age is deciding where transport funding goes..
The Daily Post article quoted above reveals much more of the reality than is usually the case while domestic politicians and vested-interest media still seek to prop up the charade..
That in truth, much more of our governance is derived from eu decisions than seems to be commonly realised..
So no, not a 'conspiracy' as you twice tried to assert.. rather the reality of how we are now 'ruled', as you quite quaintly and archaically put it..

This is anti-EU paranoia.

The TEN-T projects are described here: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...eu-funding-plan-builds-on-ten-t-revisions.htm
We are talking about Corridor 8 (Dublin/Belfast/Glasgow-London-Continent).
Nothing is said/not said about a North Wales route.

The Transport element of the Connecting Europe Facility will provide 31·7bn to upgrade infrastructure and eliminate bottlenecks. This includes 10bn ring-fenced for projects in the 14 cohesion countries. The money will be focused on less-polluting modes, notably rail and inland waterways, in order to make transport more sustainable and provide greater travel choices.

It's up to the national governments to propose schemes for seed-funding from the EU fund.
It is not a means of fully-funding the scheme.
As I see it it is up to the UK and Irish governments to decide what they want to do with the UK-Ireland corridor.
They may well have decided to route the rail corridor via Liverpool rather than Holyhead (as happened in the 1980s over freight).
That is nothing to do with the EU. It may have more to do with the "Northern Powerhouse" though, and major investment in Liverpool.

Remember that local politicians are prepared to use any means to get what they want locally, hence the loud noises from North Wales.
The DfT has to take a strategic view.
The North Wales rail line is now not the strategic UK-Irish route it was, thanks to road competition and low-cost airlines.
Its upgrade would essentially be only for domestic use, which is not the purpose of the EU funds.

The EU TEN-T funds are aimed mainly at Eastern Europe where cross-border infrastructure is very poor, and is not solely for rail funding.
It is not intended for rich western countries to fund projects they can well afford.
Wales' needs come somewhere in the middle.
As an example, upgrading the A494 through Queensferry (previously cancelled by Lab/Plaid) could well get a contribution from the EU fund as a corridor improvement.
Also the upcoming resignalling in North Wales.
But it won't fund a £400m domestic electrification project.

TheKnightWho · 12 Apr 2015

D60 said:
One of the functions of government in the modern age is deciding where transport funding goes..
The Daily Post article quoted above reveals much more of the reality than is usually the case while domestic politicians and vested-interest media still seek to prop up the charade..
That in truth, much more of our governance is derived from eu decisions than seems to be commonly realised..
So no, not a 'conspiracy' as you twice tried to assert.. rather the reality of how we are now 'ruled', as you quite quaintly and archaically put it..

Are you even reading my posts? That is additional funding.

Plus you really don't seem to understand that the UK has quite a large say in what UK projects get funded by the EU as well. They make the case for projects they deem suitable, and the EU makes a decision based on various criteria outlined above. The paranoia and delusion surrounding anti-EU propaganda is ignorant, misinformed nonsense, and is incredibly damaging to the future of this country.

Gwenllian2001 · 12 Apr 2015

TheKnightWho said:
Are you even reading my posts? That is additional funding.

Plus you really don't seem to understand that the UK has quite a large say in what UK projects get funded by the EU as well. They make the case for projects they deem suitable, and the EU makes a decision based on various criteria outlined above. The paranoia and delusion surrounding anti-EU propaganda is ignorant, misinformed nonsense, and is incredibly damaging to the future of this country.

Well said sir. I often wonder where some of the anti EU rhetoric will end. Perhaps there are people out there who would love to give Jerry and Johnny Frenchman a good hiding. Perhaps those same people have forgotten that centuries of war in Europe have been replaced by co-operation between countries that once seemed hell bent on teaching each other one lesson or another. Let's have the good old days back then once again The Times can proclaim 'Fog in The Channel, Europe cut off!

pablo · 13 Apr 2015

Gwenllian2001 said:
..........The Times can proclaim 'Fog in The Channel, Europe cut off!

No. It was, "Fog in the Channel. Continent cut off."
Europe was a Coal and Steel Community then.

TheKnightWho · 13 Apr 2015

pablo said:
No. It was, "Fog in the Channel. Continent cut off."
Europe was a Coal and Steel Community then.

And it's clearly all fallen apart since we've grown closer, right?

pablo · 14 Apr 2015

I wasn't aware of any tectonic shift towards Europe. Have you detected some?

Blamethrower · 14 Apr 2015

D60 said:
Dinorwic and Tanygrisiau (correctly Ffestiniog) don't "produce" electricity, they were built to even out peaks and troughs in demand, being "pump storage schemes" which let water down through the turbines during the daytime peaks, and then pump it back up again overnight..

So, with that in mind, when they pump the water back up, electricity is at it's lowest price so are they not a net contributor having sold what they generated at the top price?

Gwenllian2001 · 14 Apr 2015

pablo said:
No. It was, "Fog in the Channel. Continent cut off."
Europe was a Coal and Steel Community then.

By the time that headline appeared in The Times, The Steel and Coal community had already been overtaken by the Treaty of Rome which set up the EEC which was made up of the original six member states of the Coal and Steel Community, The Coal and Steel Community which was set up in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris and led the way to the Treaty of Rome and the formation of the European Economic Community in 1957 with the original six member states who were the signatories of the Treaty of Paris. As other countries joined, this led to the formation of the of European Community in 1993 and eventually to the formation of the European Union in 2004, which is where we are today.

which was set up in 1951 by the Treaty of Paris

Xenophon PCDGS · 14 Apr 2015

pablo said:
I wasn't aware of any tectonic shift towards Europe. Have you detected some?

If this should ever occur, what would be the first intimation of deformation in the Channel Tunnel. What method of sensors are used to detect such matters?

pablo · 14 Apr 2015

Paul Sidorczuk said:
If this should ever occur, what would be the first intimation of deformation in the Channel Tunnel. What method of sensors are used to detect such matters?

Eurostar getting dust in the cooling fans.

krus_aragon · 15 Apr 2015

Blamethrower said:
So, with that in mind, when they pump the water back up, electricity is at it's lowest price so are they not a net contributor having sold what they generated at the top price?

The price is lower, so the scheme makes a profit. But, due to conservation of energy, the flow of water down through the power station can't generate more electricity than it takes to pump it back up again. These power stations are 'boost' buttons to avoid brownouts at peak demand.

TheKnightWho · 15 Apr 2015

Paul Sidorczuk said:
If this should ever occur, what would be the first intimation of deformation in the Channel Tunnel. What method of sensors are used to detect such matters?

As far as I'm aware we're not moving towards or away from Europe as there's no tectonic fault between Britain and France.

Apart from earthquakes (which can generally be protected against), this is one of the major reasons tunnels across fault lines prove problematic.

(I think it's one of the reasons a Japan-Korea tunnel has run into problems, apart from the fact it's 200km long. Tunnels of that magnitude haven't stopped the Chinese though, although their 120km Bohai Sea tunnel isn't close to a tectonic fault.)

ChiefPlanner · 15 Apr 2015

To bring us back to a Welsh perspective - there was a well documented "earthquake" in the Swansea area in - I think - 1906

OK maybe a tremor - but it spooked a lot of people....

Now - where is this gold mine to pay for this ..?

Llanigraham · 15 Apr 2015

ChiefPlanner said:
To bring us back to a Welsh perspective - there was a well documented "earthquake" in the Swansea area in - I think - 1906

OK maybe a tremor - but it spooked a lot of people....

Now - where is this gold mine to pay for this ..?

There are several, but none are rail connected!

Gareth Marston · 15 Apr 2015

Being realistic Wales will do well to get Crewe to Holyhead done in time for HS2 reaching there back end CP5/early CP6. As I pointed out to some Plaid types a while back Wales has already got 20 to 25 % of the wiring in CP4 you can't play the were hard done by card when large chunks of a England have missed out. I note the Tories are promising the south west and east Anglia as priority for CP6.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Let's look at what is possible, getting hold the FGW 143's and 153's coming off lease at the end of 2017 would make a difference and the annual lease costs would only be equivalent of 20metres of the M4 Relief road. The 8 143's could be added to Valley lines trains boosting capacity until electrification and you could stick the 14 153's on the back of the 150/2's to make hybrid 3 car sets and use them to Cheltenham, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale and Tenby.

You might free up a couple of units and get the 158's used in S Wales back to the ex Central Trains routes find the extra unit for the Cambrian to go fully hourly and get ATW peak trains into Birmingham 6 car in length. You might even find the extra unit to get the Bidston line extended to Birkenhead North.

Plaid Cymru: We'd electrify all the main Welsh lines

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