Caught in first class - standard ticket

haaan · 26 Jun 2015

Hi all,

Today i was travelling On southwest trains. I have a weekly travelcard. I know it is no excuse but i have had food poisoning and have been unwell - i had to go home sick from work yesterday. It is also ramadan - so i have been fasting without food or water all day. When i boarded the train at waterloo, it was very busy with no standard class seats. I stupidly decided to sit in first class as i was exhausted, and fell asleep. I was awoken by the ticket inspector just before the train arrived at my stop. I showed him my photocard and ticket and he questioned why i was in first class. I apologised and briefly explained my situation. He wrote down my photocard number and said that i should know better and said that he will pass my details to revenue protection.

Now i am very worried. What are the possible effects of this? The inspector did not ask for my name or address.

Thanks

RailUK Forums

cjmillsnun · 26 Jun 2015

Relax for now.

If you are not known to SWT's prosecutions/revenue teams (you've never been in trouble before), then you'll get sent a letter, explaining what they are accusing you of (sitting in first class accommodation without a valid (first class) ticket - it'll be worded differently), and ask you for any statement in mitigation.

At this point, apologise profusely, explain that you were unwell, you made an error of judgement, and that it won't happen again.

It's likely they'll offer a settlement. This could expensive (allow a large three figure sum). Pay. Never do it again. That'll be the end of the matter.

If however you are known to them, then depending on your history, it could be very different.

EDIT: he only took your photocard number??? IIRC the only link to my details on my photocard is the fact that my name is written on it. I definitely never gave my address. You may be very lucky indeed (don't count on it!). However. Your photocard number will be known to revenue protection in future... Don't do it again...

haaan · 26 Jun 2015

Yes he just wrote my photocard number down. Didnt ask for any other details or caution me or anything.

island · 27 Jun 2015

It's a criminal offence to remain in a part of the train not intended for your use.

If you have ever had a monthly or longer season ticket, you would have needed to give your name and address so they will have it on file. If you have only ever had weekly tickets, then you might get away with it this time.

haaan · 27 Jun 2015

So it would be a criminal and not civil offence? How much would a fine be?

Camden · 27 Jun 2015

Even a weekly ticket if paid for by card then it's easy enough to get the address. As they only took the number though it's likely a longer ticket.

The stuff about feeling ill, exhausted whatever I'm sure will cut no ice, bearing in mind the number of times a conductor will have to "wake" someone only to find they don't have a valid ticket, or heard excuses about feeling ill. The OP will just have to wait and see what the TOC decides to do about it, no point worrying about it until then.

If the OP wants to know what could happen then browse the boards or google, but IMO that's a bit like being unwell and scouring the internet for all the things it could be before you've got your doctor's appointment (ie. pointless and potentially needless worrying that achieves nothing).

Stigy · 28 Jun 2015

Bearing in mind a Guard took the details of the ticket only and said he'd pass it on to the Revenue teams, I don't think it'll go any further. To do so they'd need to investigate further and it would take a lot of time and use a lot of resources. I reckon this could just be a wake up call...

Flamingo · 28 Jun 2015

If they want to sit in First Class, buy a First Class ticket, or excess it before boarding if appropriate.

If this is the OP's regular commute (as it sounds to be) then they would be fully aware of how crowded the train usually is. Maybe for the time they are fasting they should consider buying a First Class season ticket to increase their chance of finding a seat (or travel at different times).

I'd like to know how often the OP had sat in First Class and not been caught.

Greenback · 29 Jun 2015

All you can do is to wait and see if anything happens, haaan. If it does, you will be given a chance to provide an explanation. I'd advise you not to rely on being tired, hungry, unwell, emotional or anything like that as an excuse, because it's all been done before. Be honest, say you made a mistake, and offer to make a contribution towards the costs involved in dealing with the matter. Then don't do it again, no matter what the circumstances might be.

gray1404 · 29 Jun 2015

Flamingo said:
I'd like to know how often the OP had sat in First Class and not been caught.

There is no evidence to suggest they have ever done this before. So we have to assume this was their first time. It would be unfair on them to assume otherwise in the absence of any evidence or omissions.

Flamingo · 30 Jun 2015

gray1404 said:
There is no evidence to suggest they have ever done this before. So we have to assume this was their first time. It would be unfair on them to assume otherwise in the absence of any evidence or omissions.

Yea... right... :roll:

Greenback · 30 Jun 2015

gray1404 said:
There is no evidence to suggest they have ever done this before. So we have to assume this was their first time. It would be unfair on them to assume otherwise in the absence of any evidence or omissions.

Equally, there's no evidence that the Op hasn't done this before, we need to keep an open mind and not assume anything. As such, it's a fair question to ask.

DaleCooper · 30 Jun 2015

Greenback said:
Equally, there's no evidence that the Op hasn't done this before, we need to keep an open mind and not assume anything. As such, it's a fair question to ask.

Flamingo said:
I'd like to know how often the OP had sat in First Class and not been caught.

Flamingo's comment was an insinuation not a question which would have been something like "have you ever done this before?".

Greenback · 30 Jun 2015

That wording would have been better, I agree.

However, the real point stands. We can't assume that the OP hasn't done it before, nor can we assume that they have.

jon0844 · 30 Jun 2015

Given it can be pretty hard to encounter an RPI, I do have to wonder what the odds are of being caught the first and only time you've ever done something wrong.

But it would always be a gamble to make an assumption.

Flamingo · 30 Jun 2015

I stand by my post, although I can't see the OP coming back to clarify (or incriminate themselves) at this stage.

tony6499 · 30 Jun 2015

Flamingo said:
I stand by my post, although I can't see the OP coming back to clarify (or incriminate themselves) at this stage.

Can only agree with you

455driver · 30 Jun 2015

jonmorris0844 said:
Given it can be pretty hard to encounter an RPI, I do have to wonder what the odds are of being caught the first and only time you've ever done something wrong.

But it would always be a gamble to make an assumption.

It seems to happen quite often going by the number of posters in this section that say it was the first and only time they did whatever it is they have been done for! :lol:

Flamingo · 30 Jun 2015

455driver said:
It seems to happen quite often going by the number of posters in this section that say it was the first and only time they did whatever it is they have been done for!

True conversation while charging up a split season ticket:
Passenger "I never knew about this restriction, nobody ever told me and I've never been charged before"
Me "That's strange, I'm sure I charged you a fortnight ago"
:lol:

Greenback · 1 Jul 2015

My view, while being irrelevant and unsubstantiated by any evidence at all, is that it's more likely than not that this wasn't the first time that the OP had found themselves sitting in first class on a standard class ticket. My mind remains open to the possibility that it was the first time, though.

But it doesn't matter what I, or anyone else thinks. What matters is the opinion of the decision maker at the TOC, and I'm pretty sure that the possibility will be considered at some stage, though I have no idea how it will impact on the decision that is reached, or whether it will at all.

Haitch · 8 Jul 2015

My view is that if the passanger has no record of doing this before, the TOC have no choice but to accept this as a first time offence.

If they really want to ensure all evasions are eradicated then they could introduce door scanning or permanent 1st Class hosts. Obviously due to the cost, they choose not to man them, therefore they will always be abused.

I have a friend who occassionaly sits in 1st class (when standing room only) as he knows there are no guards on the class 321 / 360 and if he saw them making there way down he would leave the area. In the highly unlikely event he was ever 'caught', he would expect to be fined as a first time offender.

tony6499 · 9 Jul 2015

Haitch said:
My view is that if the passanger has no record of doing this before, the TOC have no choice but to accept this as a first time offence.

If they really want to ensure all evasions are eradicated then they could introduce door scanning or permanent 1st Class hosts. Obviously due to the cost, they choose not to man them, therefore they will always be abused.

I have a friend who occassionaly sits in 1st class (when standing room only) as he knows there are no guards on the class 321 / 360 and if he saw them making there way down he would leave the area. In the highly unlikely event he was ever 'caught', he would expect to be fined as a first time offender.

Unless he has been observed over a period of time by plain clothes inspectors of course

LondonJohn · 13 Jul 2015

Camden said:
Even a weekly ticket if paid for by card then it's easy enough to get the address. As they only took the number though it's likely a longer ticket.

The stuff about feeling ill, exhausted whatever I'm sure will cut no ice, bearing in mind the number of times a conductor will have to "wake" someone only to find they don't have a valid ticket, or heard excuses about feeling ill. The OP will just have to wait and see what the TOC decides to do about it, no point worrying about it until then.

If the OP wants to know what could happen then browse the boards or google, but IMO that's a bit like being unwell and scouring the internet for all the things it could be before you've got your doctor's appointment (ie. pointless and potentially needless worrying that achieves nothing).

How would they be able to get the address if someone paid by card ? Surely the Data Protection Act prohibts the card issuer from giving out personal information though they might forward a letter to the card holder.

Agent_c · 13 Jul 2015

LondonJohn said:
How would they be able to get the address if someone paid by card ? Surely the Data Protection Act prohibts the card issuer from giving out personal information though they might forward a letter to the card holder.

It wouldn't trump a court order.

anme · 13 Jul 2015

Agent_c said:
It wouldn't trump a court order.

Possibly true, but a court order costs a lot more time and effort than simply asking someone's address when interviewing them, which would have been the obvious course of action in this case had the company actually wanted the address.

cjmillsnun · 14 Jul 2015

Agent_c said:
It wouldn't trump a court order.

They would be very unlikely to get a court order for that.

Fare-Cop · 14 Jul 2015

LondonJohn said:
How would they be able to get the address if someone paid by card ? Surely the Data Protection Act prohibts the card issuer from giving out personal information though they might forward a letter to the card holder.

If a proper application for information were made citing the investigation of a crime and referring to the relevant clause in DPA allowing this, it would be in order for a data controller to release that information if they were satisfied that they should do so.

Caught in first class - standard ticket

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