First Class Ticket No Option to Purchase

fizzwheel · 10 Dec 2015

I'm just finding out prices and no matter which online engine I try and use, national rail, the trainline or the GWR site itself.

None of them seem to give me the option to buy either a first class single between Castle Cary & Westbury or a First Class Return ticket.

Yet I can get a price for a Season Ticket between those two stations...

I know the train has a first class section on it as I am travel on it every day. I'm trying to work out how much extra its going to cost me to use first class for a few days on the run up to Christmas just to make the journey more pleasant as I'm expecting the train to be busier and I'm looking to try and split my tickets between Castle Cary and Reading for my commute... hence why I was looking at chopping the journey up... but I cant get a price for a first class ticket for the first bit of my journey...

Anybody able to explain why ?

RailUK Forums

yorkie · 10 Dec 2015

There is no first class ticket for that flow

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=CLC&dest=WSB

GWR should create one.

fizzwheel · 10 Dec 2015

So basically my only option there is to purchase from the ticket office on the day I want to travel, if I want a first class ticket from Castle Cary to Westbury ?

N Levers · 10 Dec 2015

Just buy a standard ticket, sit in 1st and see what happens. What is the worst thing that can happen in that situation?

Darandio · 10 Dec 2015

fizzwheel said:
So basically my only option there is to purchase from the ticket office on the day I want to travel, if I want a first class ticket from Castle Cary to Westbury ?

Not if there isn't one you can buy!

N Levers · 10 Dec 2015

fizzwheel said:
So basically my only option there is to purchase from the ticket office on the day I want to travel, if I want a first class ticket from Castle Cary to Westbury ?

They can't sell you that either. No ticket exists

Darandio · 10 Dec 2015

N Levers said:
Just buy a standard ticket, sit in 1st and see what happens. What is the worst thing that can happen in that situation?

Very, very poor advice.

N Levers · 10 Dec 2015

As a poor alternative you can buy a first class ticket from Taunton to Westbury.

fizzwheel · 10 Dec 2015

Umh...

So the train has a first class section. I'd quite like to sit in it, but I cant technically sit in it between Castle Cary and Westbury because GWR cant seel me a ticket to do so as one doesnt exist... cool !

I guess its not popular enough to warrant setting it up on the system ?

I can get a first class ticket for the entire journey i.e. from Castle Cary to Westbury and I can get one from Castle Cary to Hungerford and any station onwards from that.

The train only gets busy from Hungerford into Reading so what I can do is get a standard ticket to get me to Hungerford and then get a first class ticket from Hungerford into Reading, it just means I'll have to get up and move coaches..

I'm assuming I'm not going to have a problem doing that ?

185143 · 10 Dec 2015

According to GWR on Twitter, the onboard staff can manually sell a first class upgrade. (Not sure how that works tbh!)

Frontera2 · 10 Dec 2015

185143 said:
According to GWR on Twitter, the onboard staff can manually sell a first class upgrade. (Not sure how that works tbh!)

IIrC, from the days of the printed fares manual, it used to say that "Where no first class fare is shown, it can be calculated by multiplying the standard fare by 1.5" or something like that?

I've got an old manual somewhere and will dig it out if I can be bothered lol

PermitToTravel · 10 Dec 2015

That rule doesn't apply anymore. Apart from on weekends it's simply not possible to travel in first between those stations without buying a ticket for a longer journey than you wish to make

yorkie · 10 Dec 2015

Frontera2 said:
IIrC, from the days of the printed fares manual, it used to say that "Where no first class fare is shown, it can be calculated by multiplying the standard fare by 1.5" or something like that?

I've got an old manual somewhere and will dig it out if I can be bothered lol

Sadly it was abolished. It's not clear who requested it, or why, nor whether or not the DfT approved it. I'd be interested to find out...

IanXC · 10 Dec 2015

yorkie said:
Sadly it was abolished. It's not clear who requested it, or why, nor whether or not the DfT approved it. I'd be interested to find out...

At the risk of going off topic, I can't see DfT approval would have been required, as this is essentially an issue of Pricing of (unregulated) First Class Fares.

ainsworth74 · 10 Dec 2015

185143 said:
According to GWR on Twitter, the onboard staff can manually sell a first class upgrade. (Not sure how that works tbh!)

There is a weekend first upgrade in the system so I imagine they'll just sell that.

Starmill · 11 Dec 2015

N Levers said:
They can't sell you that either. No ticket exists

Darandio said:
Very, very poor advice.

Unless the stations the journey would be covered by a Penalty Fare, the answer is being asked to move.

They might try to prosecute you I suppose. I wouldn't like to ponder what lies down that particular avenue because of the sheer amount of interpretation involved. Easier all round would simply be for them to introduce a First Class fare.

221129 · 11 Dec 2015

Starmill said:
Unless the stations the journey would be covered by a Penalty Fare, the answer is being asked to move.

They might try to prosecute you I suppose. I wouldn't like to ponder what lies down that particular avenue because of the sheer amount of interpretation involved. Easier all round would simply be for them to introduce a First Class fare.

Prosecution would be easy.

Agent_c · 11 Dec 2015

N Levers said:
Just buy a standard ticket, sit in 1st and see what happens. What is the worst thing that can happen in that situation?

You find yourself in front of a magistrate explaining to you how you now have a criminal record. That is the absolute worst case.

Lemmy99uk · 11 Dec 2015

N Levers said:
Just buy a standard ticket, sit in 1st and see what happens. What is the worst thing that can happen in that situation?

Rather than inviting prosecution, the better method would be to find the Train Manager at Castle Cary, show him your ticket, and advise him that you would like to upgrade to first class for the journey.

As long as the TM gives you permission, you can sit in first and watch the fun as he tries to find an appropriate excess.

MichaelAMW · 11 Dec 2015

The Conditions of Carriage appear to help here:

If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:

(i) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket for the accommodation you have used

That does however appear to conflict a little with the byelaw saying you can't remain in first-class accommodation without an appropriate ticket.

221129 · 11 Dec 2015

MichaelAMW said:
The Conditions of Carriage appear to help here:

If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:

(i) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket for the accommodation you have used

That does however appear to conflict a little with the byelaw saying you can't remain in first-class accommodation without an appropriate ticket.

And the byelaw take precedence.

Bletchleyite · 11 Dec 2015

ollieb said:
And the byelaw take precedence.

Does it? That NRCoC entry would appear to me to constitute authority to travel, as it says you WILL have to pay, not you MAY have to pay or you MAY be prosecuted.

Starmill · 11 Dec 2015

ollieb said:
Prosecution would be easy.

ollieb said:
And the byelaw take precedence.

I refer the honouable gentleman to previous comments regarding differing views!

221129 · 11 Dec 2015

If you have a standard class
ticket and you travel in first class accommodation without permission (which includes
occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:
(i) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class
ticket for the accommodation you have used; or
(ii) where Condition 4 (b) applies, you may be charged a Penalty Fare.

It also refers to not having permission for this to apply, so surely it is not in itself permission to travel without a valid ticket.

Bletchleyite · 11 Dec 2015

ollieb said:
If you have a standard class
ticket and you travel in first class accommodation without permission (which includes
occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:
(i) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class
ticket for the accommodation you have used; or
(ii) where Condition 4 (b) applies, you may be charged a Penalty Fare.

It also refers to not having permission for this to apply, so surely it is not in itself permission to travel without a valid ticket.

The phrase isn't permission, it's "authority to travel". I still believe it does constitute that.

On routes where there is limited First Class accommodation upgrading on board may not be an unusual thing, though it is explicitly not allowed in PF areas.

221129 · 11 Dec 2015

Neil Williams said:
The phrase isn't permission, it's "authority to travel". I still believe it does constitute that.

On routes where there is limited First Class accommodation upgrading on board may not be an unusual thing, though it is explicitly not allowed in PF areas.

I think you'd be hard pressed to convince the Magistrate of that.

najaB · 11 Dec 2015

Neil Williams said:
Does it? That NRCoC entry would appear to me to constitute authority to travel, as it says you WILL have to pay, not you MAY have to pay or you MAY be prosecuted.

To my mind the Byelaws would take precedence as the NRCoC relate to contract/civil law where the Byelaws relate to criminal law. As I understand it, where there is a conflict criminal law takes precedence.

Bletchleyite · 11 Dec 2015

najaB said:
To my mind the Byelaws would take precedence as the NRCoC relate to contract/civil law where the Byelaws relate to criminal law. As I understand it, where there is a conflict criminal law takes precedence.

Surely, though, that would mean Weekend First is also not a valid thing? That NRCoC entry is no different to the permission to travel and upgrade on board which is given by Weekend First.

But in any case, the Byelaw relevant to this applies only where a ticket or authority to travel is not given. I would argue that this, like the Weekend First blurb, is very clear authority to travel under the Byelaw.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

ollieb said:
I think you'd be hard pressed to convince the Magistrate of that.

Do you have detail of case law to confirm that?

najaB · 11 Dec 2015

Neil Williams said:
Surely, though, that would mean Weekend First is also not a valid thing? That NRCoC entry is no different to the permission to travel and upgrade on board which is given by Weekend First.

But with weekend first you are given permission to enter First by the fact that weekend first exists, and then given authority to remain by paying the upgrade fee. No such right to enter exists on weekdays.

Bletchleyite · 11 Dec 2015

najaB said:
But with weekend first you are given permission to enter First by the fact that weekend first exists, and then given authority to remain by paying the upgrade fee. No such right to enter exists on weekdays.

That NRCoC entry seems quite clear to me in giving that authority to travel by explaining what WILL (not may, WILL) happen if you do.

Were a prosecution pursued, that would be a breach of that term of the NRCoC, because something it says WILL happen (100% certainty) did not.

If the intention is not to follow that, that clause should be removed from the NRCoC and replaced with one stating that if you travel in First Class without express permission, you will be treated as holding no ticket. That would then open up the option of prosecution under the relevant Byelaw.

(Away from the Byelaws a RoRA prosecution may well succeed even with the above line if it was felt that there was intent to avoid payment, but merely travelling in a train without a valid ticket does not necessarily prove intent to avoid payment; if it did there would never be any Byelaw prosecutions at all)

First Class Ticket No Option to Purchase

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