Presumably the person at the ORR who signed off Merseyrail's safety case or whoever signed off all dispatch methods nationwide is surely the one more liable for prosecution than any member of staff following company guidelines, from which are agreed by the RSSB / ORR?
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CPS prosecutes Merseyrail Guard
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Presumably the person at the ORR who signed off Merseyrail's safety case or whoever signed off all dispatch methods nationwide is surely the one more liable for prosecution than any member of staff following company guidelines, from which are agreed by the RSSB / ORR?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Quite.
The whole idea of prosecuting someone for following his employer's H&S procedures to the letter, if that is what he has done, is bonkers. It turns the entire way H&S is done in industry on its head.
What if the procedure is found to be at fault ? If the Guard followed procedure to the letter but someone still had an accident as a result then procedure must be called into question.
My thoughts are with anyone who follows procedure but has to face prosecution because of it. If it is reasonable to assume that someone could be trapped because of a method of working but you still carry out the action then who is liable.
It's a worrying situation if it turns out to be damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Agreed, it should be the owner/controller of the process who is liable for prosecution, not the person whose job is basically defined as following it, as rail staff's generally is.
This is the problem. And unless there is something we are not being told, the CPS are absolutely mad for pursuing it, as no employee would ever accept a job where they were told it was a sacking offence not to follow procedure, but where if that procedure, if followed, caused injury, they would be personally liable for it.
If this is successful I see many years of strikes and unrest ahead - and not just on the railway, in pretty much every job where risk is involved and where H&S is and has to be very prescriptive for everyone's safety.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Let the police take the people to court and juries decide rather than the muppets at CPS
I could see very very large nationwide RMT action if this goes to a guilty verdict. And given the RMT not only represents rail staff but staff in similar other industries it could be big.
I doubt it!
Going by the amount of prosecutions they bring which are thrown out of Court I doubt if they have got any legal expertise except for what they have gleaned from the idiots guide to the courtroom.
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Other people have made the same point.
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I doubt it!
Going by the amount of prosecutions they bring which are thrown out of Court I doubt if they have got any legal expertise except for what they have gleaned from the idiots guide to the courtroom.
Edit-
Other people have made the same point.
Indeed. Until this thread surfaced, I had never in my lifetime actually had a look at what the CPS actually does. Now that I have done some research , I m somewhat suprised to find that only 80% of cases advised by the CPS to prosecute actually result in a conviction. Thats an awful lot of money wasted on the non convicted cases.
EbbwJunction1
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But why should there be strike action and who would it benefit?
Whilst I have every sympathy with the guard concerned based on what I've read here, surely the target is the wrong one? Strike action certainly won't help the passengers like me who are innocent of any wrong doing, so why should we suffer because of something that is totally out of our control?
My understanding is that if the court were to find the guard guilty, the implication is that carrying out the procedures by the book could see you convicted and jailed. Understandably, people wouldn't want to go out and work trains if they could be breaking the law, so you wouldn't have people taking trains out. It wouldn't be a strike per se, more an instruction from the RMT not to work trains until the situation has been resolved, although I would be interested to hear what the actual view is from someone inside the RMT.
headshot119
Established Member
I'd imagine that ASLEF and RMT drivers in DOO areas would also join any sort of nation wide industrial action against a guilty verdict. After all surely they'd be as accountable for PTI incident as a guard would?
I'm not calling for a strike or action and hopefully it'll never come close but there will have some sort of action, most likely disruptive, if a guilty verdict comes.
EbbwJunction1, I don't know what your job is but would you be happy if all of a sudden it becomes apparent you are personally legally liable for actions of your clients/customers that you have no control over? That is what a guilty verdict in this case would effectively hold over transport workers.*
Its not a minor issue and I can very easily see RMT going nuclear over a guilty verdict. Possibly even ASLEF, especially in DOO areas.**
*Assuming facts reported are the facts in court
**Not trying to open a DOO debate
EbbwJunction1, I don't know what your job is but would you be happy if all of a sudden it becomes apparent you are personally legally liable for actions of your clients/customers that you have no control over? That is what a guilty verdict in this case would effectively hold over transport workers.*
Its not a minor issue and I can very easily see RMT going nuclear over a guilty verdict. Possibly even ASLEF, especially in DOO areas.**
*Assuming facts reported are the facts in court
**Not trying to open a DOO debate
I don't think industrial action would be legal - it's not apparently a dispute with the employers.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Doesn't mean people won't do it. And the railway could not afford to sack all the staff.
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
The RMT could call for industrial action, strike or whatever, in an attempt to get a TOC to overturn any decision, but it would be a different kettle of fish to try and overturn a legally decided court decision. Impossible. The only way to overturn such a decision could be an appeal by the defendant (or his legal representative) himself. Please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm half expecting somebody to post that I'm way off the mark.
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Indeed they couldnt ...and in fact assuming a guilty plea based on the facts presented on here, would have implications for those responsible for actually validating safety cases for the industry including the ORR itself.
philthetube
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It would not be industrial action, it would be "there is someone within a yard of the train who might fall, when the police remove them we can proceed, providing no one else prevents us departing.
Presumably a driver approaching a platform would have responsibility for the actions of passengers waiting, therefore safe working would have to be, train arrives in platform, barriers opened, passengers allowed onto platform to board train, train waits for all exiting passengers to leave platform, barriers closed, train departs.
Even though the operator is not being prosecuted in this case, a guilty verdict would open the floodgates there as well, who would want to manage a rail company if there was a prosecution every time an accident occurred.
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That used to be the case, but didn't work, as the police were both deciding on prosecutions and supplying the evidence, a conflict of interest. Why are the CPS "muppets"?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Why? The decision is made by a jury (or magistrate).
David
Established Member
While I'm not a worker on or near the railway, I'm still watching this with more than a passing interest.
I work in a busy food production factory, and in the section I work in, it is very busy, with forklifts and electric palletisers being used very frequently. Near misses and accidents are taken very seriously, and I generally feel safe working around everyone and everything that's happening.
However, if this guard is found guilty despite following procedures*, then I fear both the rail and haulage (and associated) industries will go to hell and beyond. The worst case example, in a warehouse or order picking/despatch part of a factory, then no one will be allowed within 5 yards of operating machinery unless authorised to do so (machine minders for example). That would make my job as an order picker impossible as there is frequently an electric palletiser in use very near by.
*I'm making no allowances for anything the CPS may or may have not found.
I work in a busy food production factory, and in the section I work in, it is very busy, with forklifts and electric palletisers being used very frequently. Near misses and accidents are taken very seriously, and I generally feel safe working around everyone and everything that's happening.
However, if this guard is found guilty despite following procedures*, then I fear both the rail and haulage (and associated) industries will go to hell and beyond. The worst case example, in a warehouse or order picking/despatch part of a factory, then no one will be allowed within 5 yards of operating machinery unless authorised to do so (machine minders for example). That would make my job as an order picker impossible as there is frequently an electric palletiser in use very near by.
*I'm making no allowances for anything the CPS may or may have not found.
There is no sign of any update, so I've locked the thread for now. Please do let us know when there is an update.
All we can do right now is hope for the best possible outcome for the Guard, I am sure all our thoughts are with him at this worrying time.
All we can do right now is hope for the best possible outcome for the Guard, I am sure all our thoughts are with him at this worrying time.
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