6 months wouldn't surprise me.
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BBC - Train Crew Shortages article
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6 months wouldn't surprise me.
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You have to remember that new drivers wont have to learn half (or even a quarter) of the routes you were expected to learn from the start.
Some Companies have their trainees doing their hours over their core routes, as soon as they pass the final assessments they are straight into the base roster as they have learnt the routes doing their hours.
It might sound a bit 'iffy' but they have just spent 225 (or 250) working over them so should know them very well indeed.
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That would scare me!
We are talking from start to driving first train on own, not just passing the final drivers assessments.
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18 months isn't long in the grand scheme.
XC* normally ask for 3 years experience but only 18 months when they have somebody lined up for the job.
* this is for driving XC Voyagers not XC 170.
ExRes
Established Member
Crikey, I'm glad I passed out when I did, all this 12 months lark would've played havoc with my fitting in leisure activities ........
How many hours a week are spent driving? 250 hours would be under two months at 35 hpw
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That would scare me!
We are talking from start to driving first train on own, not just passing the final drivers assessments.
12 weeks rules
2 weeks traction
12 weeks manual handling 225 hours (20 hr/pw = 240hrs)
Some of our Depot's burn through their hours. We are intensive metro and are one of the companies who have the core routes done before their initial assessment. Hence 6 months not really being any surprise. A year... pfttt easy.
The reality is different as the system doesn't work that efficient.
Class 170101
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Does privatisation also reflect the poorer quality of work? In BR days I guess New Street depot (for example) would have had a wider mixture of work from what are now Cross Country, West Coast, London Midland routes, ATW routes and probably some freight.
Solent&Wessex
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Privatisation certainly hasn't helped the driver issue. Where you would have had one big BR depot at one location, with drivers starting at the bottom and moving up the links to get different, better work content, and more pay, you now have 2, 3 or more different depots at the same location. Natural progression isn't as simple. You can't just move upwards, you have to apply for a vacancy when it arises and go through the whole recruitment process. With different companies come different working arrangements, different pay negotiations and different budgets depending on the work.
Take Manchester Piccadilly for example. You have Northern, TPE, CrossCountry and Virgin driver's depots. All paying different rates of pay, with different terms and conditions, different work content etc etc etc. The costs of training drivers falls on Northern and TPE mainly, as they tend to take in all the new recruits. People often leave Northern to go to TPE, and TPE to go to XC and Virgin. That is exactly how it worked under BR with progression and promotion, but now you are changing companies at the same time.
Also bear in mind that when a driver gets a new job with a new TOC, he may have to work only 3 or 4 months notice at the TOC he currently works at. But it will take that TOC 12 - 18 months to recruit and train a replacement, unless they too pinch a qualified driver from somewhere else. So for possibly over 1 year you have a shortfall while a replacement driver is sought.
As you have no idea how many driver's will leave each year, how many do you recruit? Recruit too many and you risk them all being sat around with nothing to do in 18 months time, and then you have higher costs than expected, and risk being criticised by the press (should they find out) for being wasteful with all the hard working commuter's money.
You also have no idea how many will have incidents, be taken sick, be restricted for one reason or another for example.
Also, at some smaller depots for some TOCs you can have a very high % spare coverage, but still not be able to cover the jobs. Think of this.
A small depot has 8 duties per day, 4 early shifts and 4 late shifts. If you have 100% spare cover you would have 4 rostered to each early shift, 4 rostered to each late shift, and 4 early spares and 4 late spares. Lets say of those 8 drivers rostered to work in the afternoon:
1 is on allocated annual leave by rotation.
1 is on daily leave he applied for 9 months ago.
1 is sick.
1 is a vacancy due to somebody yesterday having worked their final day after having worked their 3 months notice before leaving to go to another company, and his replacement is still in training.
1 has been restricted as he had an incident / irregularity last week which is still being investigated.
The other 3 drivers are available to work.
But you have 4 duties to cover.
How do you cover the remaining duty?
In the morning you have all 4 duties covered and 4 spares sat there doing nothing. But none of those can cover the uncovered late duty due to the limit of movement from their base spare turn and their duties the following days etc.
A perfectly possible scenario even with a wasteful 100% spare coverage.
As it happens TPE has a higher than industry average spare coverage, which ASLEF itself has said.
Take Manchester Piccadilly for example. You have Northern, TPE, CrossCountry and Virgin driver's depots. All paying different rates of pay, with different terms and conditions, different work content etc etc etc. The costs of training drivers falls on Northern and TPE mainly, as they tend to take in all the new recruits. People often leave Northern to go to TPE, and TPE to go to XC and Virgin. That is exactly how it worked under BR with progression and promotion, but now you are changing companies at the same time.
Also bear in mind that when a driver gets a new job with a new TOC, he may have to work only 3 or 4 months notice at the TOC he currently works at. But it will take that TOC 12 - 18 months to recruit and train a replacement, unless they too pinch a qualified driver from somewhere else. So for possibly over 1 year you have a shortfall while a replacement driver is sought.
As you have no idea how many driver's will leave each year, how many do you recruit? Recruit too many and you risk them all being sat around with nothing to do in 18 months time, and then you have higher costs than expected, and risk being criticised by the press (should they find out) for being wasteful with all the hard working commuter's money.
You also have no idea how many will have incidents, be taken sick, be restricted for one reason or another for example.
Also, at some smaller depots for some TOCs you can have a very high % spare coverage, but still not be able to cover the jobs. Think of this.
A small depot has 8 duties per day, 4 early shifts and 4 late shifts. If you have 100% spare cover you would have 4 rostered to each early shift, 4 rostered to each late shift, and 4 early spares and 4 late spares. Lets say of those 8 drivers rostered to work in the afternoon:
1 is on allocated annual leave by rotation.
1 is on daily leave he applied for 9 months ago.
1 is sick.
1 is a vacancy due to somebody yesterday having worked their final day after having worked their 3 months notice before leaving to go to another company, and his replacement is still in training.
1 has been restricted as he had an incident / irregularity last week which is still being investigated.
The other 3 drivers are available to work.
But you have 4 duties to cover.
How do you cover the remaining duty?
In the morning you have all 4 duties covered and 4 spares sat there doing nothing. But none of those can cover the uncovered late duty due to the limit of movement from their base spare turn and their duties the following days etc.
A perfectly possible scenario even with a wasteful 100% spare coverage.
As it happens TPE has a higher than industry average spare coverage, which ASLEF itself has said.
It is actual driving time, PNBs, changing ends waiting at the station etc doesnt count!
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The reality is different as the system doesn't work that efficient.
Aint that the truth!
Add on a bit for the DI picking up a spare or cover turn etc and 6 months is a bit tight, 8 would be do-able but unlikely due to Holidays, lack of DIs etc.
StateOfPlay
Member
And the 17:13 from KGX to PBO was cancelled tonight because?......answers on a postcard
HarleyDavidson
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That's a new one.
I've never heard the announcement that your train has been cancelled due to answers on a postcard.
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Yep, because the bean counters rule. :roll:
Never mind the fact, that ultimately by restricting both traction & route knowledge, they actually find themselves in more difficulties and it actually costs them more in penalties (if it's one of their train's that have broken down and causes the problem), than it would have to have given the drivers & guards the relevant route & traction knowledge that would have gotten them out of trouble.
Ever thought of changing your career?
Mintona
Established Member
I went from starting rules to passing out in just less than 10 months in 2012. That took into account 4 weeks of not actually doing anything regarding driving due to the Olympics and Paralympics so would've been able to do it in just under 9 otherwise. That was plenty to be honest, I was training with a large southeastern based TOC where I picked up many hours driving every day, at a work intensive depot. And I learnt the routes during handling so once my hours were up, I didn't have to do any route learning, and just passed out.
I've since left that TOC for another one.
HarleyDavidson
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Nope.
You do tend to find the TOC's that have the more monotonous work struggle to retain drivers. I know that London Midland struggle due to virtually all their services being cross city stoppers. The likes of XC and Virgin have jobs where you have a decent amount of time between stations and are not constantly either accelerating or braking for stations. Concentrating on braking for say 100 stations on a diagram is far more tiring that if you only have to brake for 10 in one shift.
dk1
Veteran Member
As already stated its driving hours & doesn't count PNBs etc. If with a driver instructor who's diagram is say shed & ferry it's going to be maybe 35mins in a shift. Some will try to swap to help speed things up but some won't & it's not always possible. Often you're lucky to get 5hrs on a good day so it can drag on & on...
HarleyDavidson
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You should be a Manager.
Not a snowball in hell's chance of that. Managers are leaving at a fair rate of knots from our lot and going back driving.
Doesn't that tell you something is going wrong within SW. My depot has lost 5 managers in less than 5 years, soon to lose No.6. :roll:
Kettledrum
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I think it's a structural fault in the way the franchises work, and the penalties for non performance are not sufficient to change current TOC behaviours. t's a real shame, when there are so many people wanting to start a career as a driver only to be frustrated by the recruitment and assessment process.
Interesting quote from ASLEF in the article. I think they have hit the nail on the head here:
Keith Richmond, of the train drivers' union Aslef, argues services are unlikely to improve soon. "The truth is that none of the 23 train operators have enough drivers," he says. "It takes a year to train a train driver and it's quite expensive. They don't want to train drivers. What they do is pay a driver a little bit more and get a driver from another company or they simply offer overtime.
"None of the companies have enough drivers to deliver on their franchise promises," Richmond adds. "There's no fat on the bones. In other sectors, like manufacturing and retail, they recognise that. The train operators are badly run and they don't deliver on their promises, only their obligations to the shareholders, rather than the customers."
Interesting quote from ASLEF in the article. I think they have hit the nail on the head here:
Keith Richmond, of the train drivers' union Aslef, argues services are unlikely to improve soon. "The truth is that none of the 23 train operators have enough drivers," he says. "It takes a year to train a train driver and it's quite expensive. They don't want to train drivers. What they do is pay a driver a little bit more and get a driver from another company or they simply offer overtime.
"None of the companies have enough drivers to deliver on their franchise promises," Richmond adds. "There's no fat on the bones. In other sectors, like manufacturing and retail, they recognise that. The train operators are badly run and they don't deliver on their promises, only their obligations to the shareholders, rather than the customers."
Well stop moaning about your job.
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SpacePhoenix
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12 weeks rules
2 weeks traction
12 weeks manual handling 225 hours (20 hr/pw = 240hrs)
Some of our Depot's burn through their hours. We are intensive metro and are one of the companies who have the core routes done before their initial assessment. Hence 6 months not really being any surprise. A year... pfttt easy.
The reality is different as the system doesn't work that efficient.
Is "manual handling" time spent driving a loco/unit?
Will trainees do some bits of their training in parallel?
ExRes
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absolutelymilk
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Would it not be possible for the TOCs which train drivers to force them to stay for a number of years or make them pay for the cost of their training?
Mintona
Established Member
Most (all?) TOCs now have a clause that states you must remain with the company that trained you for a minimum of 2 or 3 years (depending on company) or you have to pay back a proportionate amount of training costs depending on how quickly you leave.
Yes to both.
thejuggler
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I'm not comparing, I'm suggesting challenging how TOCs recruit and train and look to a similar industry and see how they do it.
One issue mentioned is how long it takes to train a driver. Some airlines tie in pilots by paying for their training and lending pilots the money, this is paid back from earnings.
I gained my professional exams from an employer paying for my training. Once I qualified I was tied to them for 3 years. Leave early to a similar role and I had to pay my fees back.
TOCs could do similar.
dk1
Veteran Member
Anglia Railways tried that on back in 1998. Union went ballistic. Thrown out.
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