Did those defendants have a TfL confirmation email that top up had been successful though?
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When smartcard tickets go wrong...
- Thread starter feline1
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Did those defendants have a TfL confirmation email that top up had been successful though?
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I get what strict liability is, and that you'd fall foul of the byelaw in this case, but it really isn't an issue.
This issue is that this problem needs looking at. Not in five months time, but now. In fact, it should have been fixed yesterday or whenever the first example of the problem occurring happened (it can't just be happening to one person)!
As I said, no TOC would be silly enough to pursue a byelaw prosecution for this scenario even if it has the law on its side. Any more than you'd expect to be charged for failing to present a ticket to staff blocking the exit to a station after another member of staff took your ticket to exit a gateline. I mean, I'm sure a prosecution could succeed there because of strict liability - but it would have to be total incompetence on the part of the TOC or spite to try and do such a thing.
I really think the talk about a byelaw prosecution here is for all intents and purposes irrelevant. We can all come up with weird and wonderful analogies, but I am sure it just wouldn't happen.
Having to buy a new ticket and go through a process of appealing is still bordering on a punishment. I don't think that's being melodramatic either.. as the fault of the TOC has now inconvenienced a passenger (and likely many) and forced them to have to go out of their way to rectify things.
Now if Southern came up with a system to manage such incidents, such as asking to see a confirmation of purchase, being able to verify that as correct and checking the serial number of the card matches, then issue an authority to travel - it at least reduces the inconvenience to there and then, not a future lot of hassle.
I am not sure I have much faith in that happening though. When I had incorrectly printed tickets from GWR last year, I got them endorsed and was okay on the day - but when I asked what processes there were in place to deal with the same thing happening in the future, I didn't get a satisfactory or reassuring response at all.
This issue is that this problem needs looking at. Not in five months time, but now. In fact, it should have been fixed yesterday or whenever the first example of the problem occurring happened (it can't just be happening to one person)!
As I said, no TOC would be silly enough to pursue a byelaw prosecution for this scenario even if it has the law on its side. Any more than you'd expect to be charged for failing to present a ticket to staff blocking the exit to a station after another member of staff took your ticket to exit a gateline. I mean, I'm sure a prosecution could succeed there because of strict liability - but it would have to be total incompetence on the part of the TOC or spite to try and do such a thing.
I really think the talk about a byelaw prosecution here is for all intents and purposes irrelevant. We can all come up with weird and wonderful analogies, but I am sure it just wouldn't happen.
Having to buy a new ticket and go through a process of appealing is still bordering on a punishment. I don't think that's being melodramatic either.. as the fault of the TOC has now inconvenienced a passenger (and likely many) and forced them to have to go out of their way to rectify things.
Now if Southern came up with a system to manage such incidents, such as asking to see a confirmation of purchase, being able to verify that as correct and checking the serial number of the card matches, then issue an authority to travel - it at least reduces the inconvenience to there and then, not a future lot of hassle.
I am not sure I have much faith in that happening though. When I had incorrectly printed tickets from GWR last year, I got them endorsed and was okay on the day - but when I asked what processes there were in place to deal with the same thing happening in the future, I didn't get a satisfactory or reassuring response at all.
Oh, I completely agree and believe I've been at pains to stress that it is unlikely in the extreme that it would happen.
It's probably due to my scientific training but I have an issue with people stating things in absolute terms when they aren't, so when pyrococcal said that he was sceptical that a successful prosecution was possible I replied to show how it was possible - though unlikely.
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Hmm... that is a good point and might be a sufficient defence. It's getting way into the realm of absurdity though - it would depend on the timestamp on the email, was it before or after the passenger boarded the train?
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feline1
Member
Well my degree's in chemistry, not law.
Law does not work quite the same way as science or maths.
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I've had plenty of other passengers on Twitter tell me their seasons keep failing to validate too.
I've had several staff at Brighton tell me the same things have happened.
Indeed, most Southern staff, if presented with a Key card, simply roll their eyes and wave that passenger through. Quite often ticket inspectors don't even have readers for Key cards. If there's a problem they just go "you'll have to contact Customer Services".
However the day this happened to me, I came up across some particularly hardcore staff at London Victoria simply would not let me through the barriers, no matter how much I explained the situation.
I had a choice of either trying to vault the barriers or missing my train, queuing up and forking out for a paper ticket. I chose the latter in that instance... sometimes in life you just have to "choose your battles".
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Unless you can demonstrate a precedent in case law, then you have not "shown it to be possible", you have merely ventured an opinion on what the outcome might be. The weight that can be attached to a legal opinion is generally based on the legal qualifications and experience of the person giving the opinion.
It seems more alpha test right now, and possibly best left for a limited trial group (who are given backup paper tickets).
It has been mentioned that if staff had to use them then it might refocus some minds, but I believe they do - but will have passes that are set to work anywhere within the area, and should they fail on renewal (I assume they have expiry dates for security reasons?) then showing staff ID would sort things.
Passengers don't have the same protection.
feline1
Member
When my Key card was stuck in limbo for 9 weeks, I was buying a paper monthly season at Eastbourne and mentioned my situation to the man in the ticket desk, he laughed and said he wasn't surprised, he'd been issued with a Key card but hadn't yet be able to get it to work, he said none of his colleagues used theirs either.
The staff clearly view them as a joke.
The Key had been progressively getting rolled out to more and more stations since 2012, has it not? We're 4 years in to the public alpha
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Magistrates courts don't set precedent.
feline1
Member
If someone was convicted in the egregious manner that you speculate about, I'm sure they'd appeal to a higher court, which could set a precedent
The Key had been progressively getting rolled out to more and more stations since 2012, has it not? We're 4 years in to the public alpha
I'm very frustrated that TfL can't get a move on with its own system, which I hear is now delayed even more, so the likelihood of Oyster coming to Hatfield seems way off now.
This means that I'm stuck with the Key as and when they finally launch point to point tickets and PAYG. As some know, I successfully bought and used a ticket when they were available for a while before launch last September. Now these tickets have gone and it's just for season ticket holders.
Clearly Govia is having issues, but knew it had to get the season ticket aspect up and running as it was a management contract requirement. Since then, there doesn't seem to be any sign of Govia being in a hurry to do much more.
If the DfT doesn't give them a kick up the ar*e then who will? We could see out the contract with it still not working properly.
feline1
Member
Well their trains don't work properly, so why bother with their smartcards working properly?
But in this entirely hypothetical situation, you'd hope not to get as far as needing to mount a 'defence', but could rather invite the courts to stay the prosecution as a misuse of process (in outline because it was the prosecution's own actions, or even negligence, not the defendant's, that caused the purported breach).
A starting point (a considerably more serious case of course) if you want to learn more might be Looseley, R v. [2001] UKHL 53 (25th October, 2001)
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Yes, but I was only considering a defence to an actual prosecution (ignoring, for arguments sake, things that in reality would have prevented the matter getting that far first place).
(For an application to stay a prosecution, there has first to be a prosecution! In circumstances like these, an application would be made early in the proceedings before any evidence is heard.)
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feline1
Member
The problem is, something that would also have had to have happened was that I did a Bodie-and-Doyle style sommersault over the barriers at London Victoria and ran off down the platform, as staff summoned BTP, and all manner of confrontation and mayhem and sweat and gnashing of teeth.
When all I wanted to do was go home and have my dinner after a long tiring day at work where 37 minutes of my lunchbreak was taken up with calling Customer Services and I'd had to elbow my way out of a scrum of 500 people in Victoria Underground to "seek assistance".
So what I actually did to prevent it getting that far was buy a paper ticket :cry: I totally wüssed out
I'm sorry I've let you all down :cry:You know what I meant!
Llanigraham
On Moderation
If someone was convicted in the egregious manner that you speculate about, I'm sure they'd appeal to a higher court, which could set a precedent
Not always!!
Even County Courts don't always do that.
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Amen.
Definitely stick to paper tickets. A couple I am friends with on the Uckfield line used to commute from Ashurst using "The Key". They got so frustrated with it continually failing to load their weekly season tickets (pretty much every single week - and it would take 2 or 3 days at least each time for Southern to resolve the issue) that they gave up after 6 months and purchased paper tickets.
I don’t understand why anyone would choose to beta-test smartcards unless there’s a decent saving (as if!) or they happen to be especially enthusiastic about using new-fangled technology to replace a system which works perfectly well. It’s obviously causing a hassle, why not show SouthernGreaterThameslinkNorthernExpress that it’s a pile of turd by switching back to paper tickets?
feline1
Member
The saving is purely on your time - both buying the ticket, and only having to hold it against validators rather than insert it in a slot and pick it up again.
But since you invariably end up spending much more time sorting the blimmin thing out when it goes wrong, it's probably not cost-effective at the moment
But since you invariably end up spending much more time sorting the blimmin thing out when it goes wrong, it's probably not cost-effective at the moment
If they worked, they'd be great. Go online, buy a ticket, tap in at the gateline and it's downloaded automatically.
It sounds like this is not something you could rely on, so then you'd end up having to arrive earlier to prepare for hassle... defeating the whole object. Especially if you then found nobody could fix things (for example, the ticket office at Hatfield doesn't have card reading equipment so all you can do is go online or phone up) and had to buy a new ticket on top of the one you'd already paid for.
What a total screwup!
It sounds like this is not something you could rely on, so then you'd end up having to arrive earlier to prepare for hassle... defeating the whole object. Especially if you then found nobody could fix things (for example, the ticket office at Hatfield doesn't have card reading equipment so all you can do is go online or phone up) and had to buy a new ticket on top of the one you'd already paid for.
What a total screwup!
CheesyChips
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Forgive me for going a tad off topic, but I'm about to be issued a 'Swift' card loaded with a monthly west mids n-network pass. Do these use a similar technology to "The Key"? My question really is, how likely is it that we're going to see the same problem in this thread occuring en masse in the midlands?
The problem with The Key doesn't appear to be the technology itself but the way that it's been implemented. Fundamentally ITSO is the same technology as Oyster (there are some differences that make the two incompatible) but TfL's implementation would seem to be far superior to The Key.
feline1
Member
The problem I started this thread about is threefold -
1. As NajaB says, there's inherent limitations of the card technology itself (ITSO is slower to scan than Oyster... the extra couple of seconds may sounds utterly trivial, but believe me, when you're in scrums of hundreds of people trying to get through TfL Underground barriers or swiping onto a London bus, those extra couple of seconds before the card validates can be heart stopping. However I agree with NajaB that the technology itself is basically OK and "works"
2. The software logic the train operator has built into their particular implementation. In GoviaTL ("Southern")'s case, this seems fundamentally broken for some scenarios. How well your TOC has done their system, you'll soon find out
3. How the TOC's staff provide support when problems occur (as they inevitably do, to some extent, in any system).
In GoviaTL's case, this aspect is absolutely lamentable, bordering on the Kafkaesque, turning simple IT problems into multi-week epics of woe for the customer.
A fundamental problem seems to be lack of "buy in" to the technology amoungst their uniformed staff on the ground (ticket desks, barrier staff, ticket inspectors). This ranges from bemused eye-rolling and chuckles about how the Key "never works" and waving customers through, to minor rants about how "we all have been issued with them but they never work", to dismissive and unhelpful refusal to countence any assistance, instead just flat "you have to contact customer services" and intransigent "you'll have to buy a paper ticket in the meantime".
However to contact customer services, you either have to send an email (to which you get a standard autoresponse about the "Unusually high volume of contacts at the moment" (funny, it's been like that for over 2 years, so it's hardly "Unusual"
...) and vague committment to give an initial reply within 28 days... or you can telephone, which typically involves being on hold for around half an hour before you can speak to anyone. Even then, the 1st line customer service staff in the call centre can't sort out key issues, they have to put you on hold again whilst they refer to "the Key team" - usually coming back having only half-understood the problem, which is deeply exasperating when they won't let you speak to the Key team directly...Again, I don't know what your own TOC's customer service will be like in this regard. I would hope it's better than GoviaTL's...
Bar some high profile outages, Oyster seems pretty rock solid. We know there are/were some limitations and that it isn't always good for long interchanges (such as when people wish to wait on a platform) but generally it works well.
When things go wrong, you can either get it dealt with by staff at a station OR possibly have to call up. When you call up, it seems the belief is that if there's any doubt over your extra charge, the policy is to give the benefit of the doubt and refund. In some cases, refunds are automatic.
When Oyster goes tits up completely, TfL allow free travel.
The Key sounds like when things go wrong, you're the one who has to make things right - and jump through hoops to get your money back.
That in itself is worrying, especially if your appeals process isn't looked upon as generously as the way TfL/Capita do things.
When things go wrong, you can either get it dealt with by staff at a station OR possibly have to call up. When you call up, it seems the belief is that if there's any doubt over your extra charge, the policy is to give the benefit of the doubt and refund. In some cases, refunds are automatic.
When Oyster goes tits up completely, TfL allow free travel.
The Key sounds like when things go wrong, you're the one who has to make things right - and jump through hoops to get your money back.
That in itself is worrying, especially if your appeals process isn't looked upon as generously as the way TfL/Capita do things.
That's because it's all about attitude. Tfl care about oyster working and throw sufficient resources at it. Southern do the Key because they have to, but don't give a toss about it, don't train staff sufficiently and expect the user to pay to resolve problems. Until their incompetence hits them financially, they won't change anything because they're inept and don't care. If they did, this thread wouldn't exist.
CheesyChips
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Thank you!
feline1
Member
I would agree that Oyster is basically great - and given the literally millions of Londoners who have an Oyster card and use it every day, that seems to be the consensus amoung the public too.
Certainly I remember what queueing to buy paper Tube tickets used to be like - who'd ever want to return to that?
I've also found TfL's response in resolving problems to be orders of magnitude better than GoviaTL's.
As an example, a few months back, I was travelling Brighton to Eastbourne, and unfortunately there was a match on at the Brighton & Hove Albion stadium, meaning the trains was completely rammed with football supporters. To cut a long story short, some crafty devil pickpockets my card wallet from my back pocket
Oyster Card, Key smartcard, Network Railcard and Two Together card gone Anyways, I reported my Oyster stolen to TfL the same day. Took less than 5 minutes on their website. Three days later, I had a new Oyster card delivered in the post, free of charge.
To get my Key replaced, I had to call up a call centre for the best part of half an hour, wait over a week for a replacement to arrive, and then a further NINE weeks until I could use it again (because the uncompleted journey on the stolen one got stuck in the system and it took nine weeks of emails and to-and-froing for them to finally sort it out!)
(To get my Railcard's replaced, I had to spend the best part of an hour on the phone to a BTP call centre, but that's another tale... )
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