BBC Four's "Flying Scotsman from the footplate"

eMeS · 30 Dec 2016

BBC Four TV 2016/12/29 and 2016/12/30.

I enjoyed watching the one hour documentary of its trip from Bridgnorth to Kidderminster on the preserved Severn Valley Railway. As a retired radar engineer who's never tried riving a steam train, I found it generally informative, and sometimes puzzling, I did wonder why the driver appeared to have so much trouble setting the regulator. Isn't this the loco which has just been refurbished?

RailUK Forums

168lover · 30 Dec 2016

eMeS said:
BBC Four TV 2016/12/29 and 2016/12/30.

I enjoyed watching the one hour documentary of its trip from Bridgnorth to Kidderminster on the preserved Severn Valley Railway. As a retired radar engineer who's never tried riving a steam train, I found it generally informative, and sometimes puzzling, I did wonder why the driver appeared to have so much trouble setting the regulator. Isn't this the loco which has just been refurbished?

The driver would have probably struggled setting the regulator as he was an svr driver so would have been new to the loco and it's unique challenges, no loco is ever the same as another

STEVIEBOY1 · 30 Dec 2016

I watched that too, it was fascinating. It seemed to be hauled quite a loaded train, I think 9 carriages. I would have liked to have seen inside one of the coaches too which appeared to be the LNER Teak stock.

Flying Phil · 30 Dec 2016

Re setting the regulator - it is important to remember that the external lever is connected to a thick steel rod that goes through a steam pressure tight gland into the boiler. Then it has flexible joints to connect to the actual valve. The whole assembly probably weighs several tens of Kg. Friction, inertia, temperature and steam pressure all combine to make it a very imprecise control mechanism.
It makes the skills of enginemen very much more than is apparent.
I did enjoy the programme as it let the driver and fireman explain what, and why, they were doing what they did. The variety of shots of the locomotive was good and the hour watching was well spent.

newbie babs · 1 Jan 2017

I thought it was very interesting and informative to find out what the fireman and driver did but are there normally 4 people to help.

Flying Phil · 1 Jan 2017

Usually it was just two people on a steam engine footplate, Driver and fireman.
However with "special" engines these days I believe there is often an "Owners representative" present and/or an Inspector just to ensure the locomotive is being used properly.

w0033944 · 1 Jan 2017

Flying Phil said:
Usually it was just two people on a steam engine footplate, Driver and fireman.
However with "special" engines these days I believe there is often an "Owners representative" present and/or an Inspector just to ensure the locomotive is being used properly.

Indeed; most preserved locos have someone assigned to assist footplate personnel who may not be conversant with that type.

Phil. · 1 Jan 2017

One of the additional two would have been a "minder" from the NRM. Interesting how the driver - as has already been mentioned - had trouble with the reverser setting at point of departure culminating in the train moving backwards for a moment. I expect had that happened on the national system "they" would have taken the driver off and cancelled the train.

Elecman · 1 Jan 2017

Phil. said:
One of the additional two would have been a "minder" from the NRM. Interesting how the driver - as has already been mentioned - had trouble with the reverser setting at point of departure culminating in the train moving backwards for a moment. I expect had that happened on the national system "they" would have taken the driver off and cancelled the train.

If the Loco had inadvertently stopped in a gear locked position in that the Pistons couldn't move the train as the gear was in effect 'over centre' then allowing the train to set back slightly on a gradient would have been perfectly acceptable as it frees up the gear to then move the train in the required direction.

scott118 · 1 Jan 2017

newbie babs said:
I thought it was very interesting and informative to find out what the fireman and driver did but are there normally 4 people to help.

within the first 4 mins of the programme, all of the foot plate members were introduced..perhaps that, somehow, was missed by a few, who had got somewhat consumed, with the issues of pulling away on a gradient..

STEVIEBOY1 · 2 Jan 2017

Phil. said:
One of the additional two would have been a "minder" from the NRM. Interesting how the driver - as has already been mentioned - had trouble with the reverser setting at point of departure culminating in the train moving backwards for a moment. I expect had that happened on the national system "they" would have taken the driver off and cancelled the train.

I have been on a number of mainline steam charters and sometimes it has been necessary for the train to reverse a little bit to get the rods and pistons lined up to start off, then it's all been fine.

E&W Lucas · 2 Jan 2017

Phil. said:
Interesting how the driver - as has already been mentioned - had trouble with the reverser setting at point of departure culminating in the train moving backwards for a moment. I expect had that happened on the national system "they" would have taken the driver off and cancelled the train.

Piffle and nonsense. Steam locos do sometimes stop with the piston due to take steam next on the dead centre, especially three cylinder locos. The only way to move it is to reverse the loco, move back a few feet, and try again. Perfectly legitimate. I can't bear to watch programmes like this, so can't comment on what "difficulty" the driver was experiencing, though I suspect this may be the view of those who've never seen steam technology in action before, and are expecting the millimeter perfect modern world!

As for "representatives", it's a can of worms. Some are great, some haven't a clue. Railways have to have documented evidence of competence for their crews. Where does that come from for the reps?
The responsibility for the footplate lies with the driver, not some bloke from an owning group. If the driver hasn't been properly trained on the loco, then he shouldn't be operating it, something that is starting to be enforced from "on high".

70014IronDuke · 2 Jan 2017

Flying Phil said:
Re setting the regulator - it is important to remember that the external lever is connected to a thick steel rod that goes through a steam pressure tight gland into the boiler. Then it has flexible joints to connect to the actual valve. The whole assembly probably weighs several tens of Kg. Friction, inertia, temperature and steam pressure all combine to make it a very imprecise control mechanism.
It makes the skills of enginemen very much more than is apparent.
..... .

(Swaying OT a little) And on the original, unmodified Bulleid pacifics, drivers had the extra problem of the chains in the chain-driven valve gear expanding, and making a mockery of the official reverser settings.

Do the preserved Bulleids still suffer from this problem, anyone know?

Phil. · 2 Jan 2017

It's pity there's not a "tongue in cheek" symbol that can be used to assist those that replied to my postings. I am more than aware of the necessity of steam locomotives to be occasionally moved backward a few feet to get the pistons and valves taken off the equivalent of top dead centre.

Cowley · 2 Jan 2017

Phil. said:
It's pity there's not a "tongue in cheek" symbol that can be used to assist those that replied to my postings. I am more than aware of the necessity of steam locomotives to be occasionally moved backward a few feet to get the pistons and valves taken off the equivalent of top dead centre.

Perhaps you should use the little winking face? Then people would know that you're a winker rather than a er, well you know?

Rick1984 · 2 Jan 2017

The driver explained as well that Flying Scotsman is designed for pulling express trains at high speeds. Not pulling off on a 1 in 100 gradient.

Flying Phil · 2 Jan 2017

70014IronDuke said:
(Swaying OT a little) And on the original, unmodified Bulleid pacifics, drivers had the extra problem of the chains in the chain-driven valve gear expanding, and making a mockery of the official reverser settings.

Do the preserved Bulleids still suffer from this problem, anyone know?

Just to keep OT I believe the chains were thought to "Stretch", but, in fact it was more due to the very slight wear in each link. However due to the fact of having two chains and then effectively "Step-up" lever ratios, the valve events became very "erratic" at higher speeds. Not surprising really as the heavy valve heads reversing direction at high speed would have been making the whole valve train oscillate.
Whilst it was a good attempt by Bulleid to overcome the servicing difficulties using more "Automotive" technology (Chain drive/oil bath) the realities of the rail environment made it an expensive idea - hence the rebuilds.
I suspect the current locomotive still have some problems but do not do the high speed mileage and are more "cossetted?"

E&W Lucas · 2 Jan 2017

Rick1984 said:
The driver explained as well that Flying Scotsman is designed for pulling express trains at high speeds. Not pulling off on a 1 in 100 gradient.

Coffee, monitor moment!
Valley crews are usually better than that. 1/100 isnt particularly steep. Out on the mainline, locos have to pull away from where they get stopped. If he had been leaving Leeds back in the day, he could have found himself stopped on a 1/42, if the box was being awkward.

Wilts Wanderer · 2 Jan 2017

Having seen the start at Bridgnorth many times, I have a feeling that the actual gradient at the platform end is a bit steeper than 1:100, despite that being the official gradient. To me it always seems more like about 1:60. With the slight curve, greasy rails and a heavy train, it's got to be one of the trickiest starts in preservation, after the obviously tough ones like Keighley and Llangollen.

Also the loco was quite clearly stopped 'on centres' which requires an inevitable set back before trying again. I've experienced this on the main line so it's nothing to do with SVR driver competence, which is probably the most professional out of all preserved lines.

Cowley · 2 Jan 2017

Wilts Wanderer said:
Having seen the start at Bridgnorth many times, I have a feeling that the actual gradient at the platform end is a bit steeper than 1:100, despite that being the official gradient. To me it always seems more like about 1:60. With the slight curve, greasy rails and a heavy train, it's got to be one of the trickiest starts in preservation, after the obviously tough ones like Keighley and Llangollen.

Also the loco was quite clearly stopped 'on centres' which requires an inevitable set back before trying again. I've experienced this on the main line so it's nothing to do with SVR driver competence, which is probably the most professional out of all preserved lines.

It was interesting to watch (I watched it in bed on the iplayer, and then I watched some of it again

). I felt a bit sorry for the driver who obviously didn't want to send the loco into a ferocious wheel slip whilst being recorded for the BBC, and clearly wasn't that used to the loco.
The same goes for the young fireman who was a credit to his generation (a generation, like me, that doesn't remember everyday mainline steam), who maybe let the moment slightly get to him at times by perhaps either over thinking it or over egging the pudding, when for both of them in any other circumstances they'd have probably had pretty much no problems whatsoever.

It was good that they had an opportunity to explain the decisions they were making throughout the program, although I slightly wish I'd watched it without commentary and worked out for myself what they were doing.

It was nice to see a railway that I love so much from a different point of view than normal. Really enjoyed it.

ejstubbs · 4 Jan 2017

E&W Lucas said:
Rick1984 said:

The driver explained as well that Flying Scotsman is designed for pulling express trains at high speeds. Not pulling off on a 1 in 100 gradient.

Click to expand...

Coffee, monitor moment!
Valley crews are usually better than that. 1/100 isnt particularly steep. Out on the mainline, locos have to pull away from where they get stopped. If he had been leaving Leeds back in the day, he could have found himself stopped on a 1/42, if the box was being awkward.

My initial thought was that it was a case of a bad workman blaming his tools, but on reflection I suspect that he wasn't entirely comfortable knowing that he was on camera and felt he just had to say something while he got the situation sorted out.

Bedpan · 10 Jan 2017

I don't know if I'm being over cynical but I wonder if the whole trip was choreographed from before the run took place, so that a number of various eventualities took place to make it more interesting for the viewer. I've heard of this happening before on other programs. It could have been manouevered into a gear locked position before the start so that the driver could be seen to have difficulty in getting it moving, and explain why. We also had the safety valves blowing off, giving the fireman the chance to explain what this was and why it was happening, two signal stops one of which led to a phone call to the box, and maybe some other things that I can't remember now. Without these, the program wouldn't have been half as interesting to the general public.

eMeS · 10 Jan 2017

Bedpan said:
I don't know if I'm being over cynical but I wonder if the whole trip was choreographed ...

I'm sure you're correct. Don't most "documentaries" now show the hand of the director/producer. Makes them more interesting than anything I shoot!.. ...and much more expensive.

BBC Four's "Flying Scotsman from the footplate"

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