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Suicide or trespass incident?

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Bromley boy

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Anyone who deliberately stops their car in front of a train is clearly not thinking straight. I would guess that there are laws in place to deal with this sort of thing and incidents such as the Germanwings one (if it had been possible to stop it) without the person just getting a slap on the wrist.

The laws would be manslaughter or murder charges, for deliberate acts such as parking a car on a level crossing, if the perpetrator somehow managed to survive but others were killed. GermanWings is a good example. The pilot intended to commit suicide but he also fully intended to murder everyone else on the aircraft.

It's perfectly possible to "not be thinking straight", in the sense of being suicidal, but still be perfectly rational for criminal law purposes. Insanity/diminished responsibility are possible defences but are quite difficult to establish.
 
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philthetube

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I believe in Belgium, where euthanasia is legal, those who attempt suicide are prosecuted. Even in the case of those who do not survive, their families are often forced to pay compensation to the railways.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cost-damaged-trains-Belgian-courts-ruled.html

There are benefits to suing the estate of a suicide, one is that people leaving families often think that what they are doing is best for their family, this would deff not be the case if the family are going to be affected financially and another is that anything which makes a potential suicide consider what they are doing might stop them from doing it.
 

fowler9

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There are benefits to suing the estate of a suicide, one is that people leaving families often think that what they are doing is best for their family, this would deff not be the case if the family are going to be affected financially and another is that anything which makes a potential suicide consider what they are doing might stop them from doing it.

Personally I just think you would be putting someone who is mentally or emotionally unstable under more pressure, I am not sure that is what you want to do. In fact I think it would be profoundly unwise. When I was at Uni I had a very bad time with depression, another lad in my halls told me that if I killed myself he would kill himself to and it would be my fault. It seriously didn't help. It is a different example of course but I don't think telling someone who is suicidal that if they do it they will bankrupt their family it would really help. In fact it just shows a complete misunderstanding of depression. It isn't just feeling a bit sad.
 
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Gemz91

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Would have thought anybody who has a failed suicide attempt would be more likely to be sectioned under mental health then prosecuted for trespassing (happy to be told I'm wrong though!)
 

fowler9

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Would have thought anybody who has a failed suicide attempt would be more likely to be sectioned under mental health then prosecuted for trespassing (happy to be told I'm wrong though!)

I believe a homeless person has been prosecuted and fined for a suicide attempt. The whole process would have cost more than the fine and been completely pointless.
 

WelshBluebird

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There are benefits to suing the estate of a suicide, one is that people leaving families often think that what they are doing is best for their family, this would deff not be the case if the family are going to be affected financially and another is that anything which makes a potential suicide consider what they are doing might stop them from doing it.

You aren't naive enough to think someone who is just about to kill themselves in such a way will actually be able to think logically about how it will impact their family are you?
 

furnessvale

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Would have thought anybody who has a failed suicide attempt would be more likely to be sectioned under mental health then prosecuted for trespassing (happy to be told I'm wrong though!)

I personally had the unhappy task of reporting for prosecution for obstructing the railway, a failed suicide. This had to be done to avoid any possible counter claim by the offender or perhaps his family.

I took great pains to explain to him that it was a formality that would not be going anywhere other than a caution. We had a good talk and it was patently apparent that my visit was the least of his worries. :cry:
 

fowler9

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I personally had the unhappy task of reporting for prosecution for obstructing the railway, a failed suicide. This had to be done to avoid any possible counter claim by the offender or perhaps his family.

I took great pains to explain to him that it was a formality that would not be going anywhere other than a caution. We had a good talk and it was patently apparent that my visit was the least of his worries. :cry:

Sorry you had to go through that mate. I can't fathom people who think that someone who is willing to end it all in a very violent way may think twice if they understand the financial implications. I was signed off work with a depressive episode early last year and whilst walking to the train station when I was back in work I told someone from work who was shocked because I didn't seem miserable. I did my best to explain how it doesn't work like that. It is like the way people think alcoholics and heroin addicts are just having a great time and schizophrenics just talk to their other personalities in their heads.
 
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Bromley boy

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There are benefits to suing the estate of a suicide, one is that people leaving families often think that what they are doing is best for their family, this would deff not be the case if the family are going to be affected financially and another is that anything which makes a potential suicide consider what they are doing might stop them from doing it.

What a strange comment.

Suing the estate is something you'd have to do after the event. No impact on the act itself, so how is it of any benefit in terms of discouraging the suicide?
 

Tempest3K

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What a strange comment.

Suing the estate is something you'd have to do after the event. No impact on the act itself, so how is it of any benefit in terms of discouraging the suicide?

I assume they mean to deter others who may be considering the same route. I can see the logic in that, but concerned that this basically punishes those left behind, when they have already suffered a loss.
 

philthetube

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You aren't naive enough to think someone who is just about to kill themselves in such a way will actually be able to think logically about how it will impact their family are you?

Not all suicides are mentally ill.

It all depends on reasons for the suicide, some are thinking logically when they do it, imagine someone ill or who has committed a serious crime or who for any reason think their family is better off without them, you are taking an easy route away from them. It is know that even a mental barrier can save some people, painted lines etc.

In any case why shouldn't the railway claim back it's expenses,
 

QueensCurve

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Not all suicides are mentally ill.

Therein lies an interesting philosophical debate.

It is interesting that our culture looks differently on those who seek to die for mental health reasons and those with incurable physical illness. Those without physical illness are deemed to need protection and we try to prevent their suicide. For those with physical illness we accept their right to die - presumably reflecting a view that the physically ill are competent to give consent whereas those with mental illness are not.
 
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What a strange comment.

Suing the estate is something you'd have to do after the event. No impact on the act itself, so how is it of any benefit in terms of discouraging the suicide?

Indeed as suicide is one of the reasons insurances etc can refuse to pay.
 

sonorguy

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Until suicide or accidental death from a collision with a train the incident site is deemed as a crime scene, sometimes it can take hours for the verdict of suicide or accidental death to be announced causing extensive delays, I remember one I attended at Harlescott near Shrewsbury and the line was closed for 6 hours until the verdict of suicide was confirmed.

Slight point of order, the only person who can formally determine that a death is a suicide is Her Majesty's Coroner at an inquest. No-one on scene can do that.
 

sonorguy

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I think jumping off a bridge onto tracks pretty much indicates an attempt on ones own life whatever the semantics.

Not as simple as that in technical terms. If it wasn't observed, it could be a fall rather than a deliberate jump and suicide requires intent and planning. That's why a large number of what, on the face of it, are obvious suicides end up with Open or Misadventure verdicts.
 

EbbwJunction1

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I believe that the initial term used now (at least, I've seen it quite a lot recently) is "unexplained death".

I take that to mean that where there's no obvious cause of death straight away, it's called that until the autopsy reveals what the cause is. I'm happy to be corrected by those who know, though.
 

fowler9

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Some really good points are made on this thread. Should someone who feels they no longer have any quality of life be allowed to kill themselves? In the case of the mentally ill I would say every effort should be made to stop them doing it. 11 years ago yesterday I was the first person in the family to say do not resuscitate my mum, she had terminal cancer and was on the Liverpool Care Pathway. Looking back did I kill my mum? Could she maybe have survived? At the end of the day whatever happens I do not think the family of the deceased should be financially penalised.
 

furnessvale

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Some really good points are made on this thread. Should someone who feels they no longer have any quality of life be allowed to kill themselves? In the case of the mentally ill I would say every effort should be made to stop them doing it. 11 years ago yesterday I was the first person in the family to say do not resuscitate my mum, she had terminal cancer and was on the Liverpool Care Pathway. Looking back did I kill my mum? Could she maybe have survived? At the end of the day whatever happens I do not think the family of the deceased should be financially penalised.

Sorry for your sad loss.

Having said that I have to take issue with your final sentence.

It is all very well to consider the railways a bottomless pot of money, which they are not, but others can lose financially by virtue of someone else's suicide.

What about a married man with a couple of kids on a minimum wage job who loses substantially by another's suicide? Should he not have any recourse, especially if the other side are not badly off financially?

Where do we draw the line?
 

fowler9

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Sorry for your sad loss.

Having said that I have to take issue with your final sentence.

It is all very well to consider the railways a bottomless pot of money, which they are not, but others can lose financially by virtue of someone else's suicide.

What about a married man with a couple of kids on a minimum wage job who loses substantially by another's suicide? Should he not have any recourse, especially if the other side are not badly off financially?

Where do we draw the line?

Thats not what I am saying. If someone jumps under a train at my local station why should their family be financialy in debt to the TOC or anyone? If I don't pay a loan bill it isn't down to my dad to pay it. Companies have insurance for this kind of thing.
 
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fowler9

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To be honest I don't get your point. If someone dies the rest of their family has to take on the debts they may have accrued without anyone else agreeing to just because they are related? How does that work? If my brother doesn't pay his rent for a year and decides to overdose on smack his rent is then owed by me?
 

furnessvale

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To be honest I don't get your point. If someone dies the rest of their family has to take on the debts they may have accrued without anyone else agreeing to just because they are related? How does that work? If my brother doesn't pay his rent for a year and decides to overdose on smack his rent is then owed by me?

And I, in turn, don't get your point.

Are you saying that my hypothetical man on the minimum wage should have no claim on the estate of the person committing suicide, no matter how wealthy they may have been?
 

IanXC

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Debts die with you under the law of England and Wales. The only way in which the family could be said to pay is that, should they be the beneficiaries of the Will (or the person died intestate) then the value of the estate would be reduced. If the estate is of insufficient value to pay the debts, it will pay what it can and the beneficiaries will receive nothing.

Where the complications would come is should the deceased own a property which represents a family home. This is an area where the railway ought to tread carefully to avoid reputational damage.
 

Stigy

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Regarding prosecuting those who attempt suicide on the railway. I believe it's more aimed at persistent offenders who go line side to seek attention and do so on a regular basis rather than one off actual suicide attempts. Also, not everybody who attempts suicide is sectional under the mental health act and are otherwise completely normal people who have had a run of bad luck and just impulsively 'have enough' of life. A lot of railway deaths are ordinary people you'd never suspect would attempt it. Also jumping in front of a train is usually as final as it gets, without any possibility of backing down, such as with a drug overdose or self-harming.
 

fowler9

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And I, in turn, don't get your point.

Are you saying that my hypothetical man on the minimum wage should have no claim on the estate of the person committing suicide, no matter how wealthy they may have been?

Yeah, thats exactly what I am saying. How would a man on minimum wage have a claim on the estate of someone else who topped themselves anyway? I thought we were talking about the family of someone who killed themselves having to pay off the TOC.
 
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fowler9

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Regarding prosecuting those who attempt suicide on the railway. I believe it's more aimed at persistent offenders who go line side to seek attention and do so on a regular basis rather than one off actual suicide attempts. Also, not everybody who attempts suicide is sectional under the mental health act and are otherwise completely normal people who have had a run of bad luck and just impulsively 'have enough' of life. A lot of railway deaths are ordinary people you'd never suspect would attempt it. Also jumping in front of a train is usually as final as it gets, without any possibility of backing down, such as with a drug overdose or self-harming.

Do you get many persistent railway suicide attempts? It would seem hard to fail at the first attempt. I do however know someone who lost both their legs and is happily still alive.
 

Minilad

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Do you get many persistent railway suicide attempts? It would seem hard to fail at the first attempt. I do however know someone who lost both their legs and is happily still alive.

When I had mine I was told by Police on the scene that the guy I hit had attempted suicide by train at least 4 times. The last time the day before. By attempted they meant got to a position to do the deed but didn't actually go through with it. The day before he was seen sitting on a bridge parapet.
I'm guessing while not common a few people may do this for various reasons
 

furnessvale

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Do you get many persistent railway suicide attempts? It would seem hard to fail at the first attempt. I do however know someone who lost both their legs and is happily still alive.

I know of one who attempted 3 times. Twice the train saw him in the distance and stopped.

On the third occasion he chained himself to the rails inside a tunnel.
 

sonorguy

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I believe that the initial term used now (at least, I've seen it quite a lot recently) is "unexplained death".

I take that to mean that where there's no obvious cause of death straight away, it's called that until the autopsy reveals what the cause is. I'm happy to be corrected by those who know, though.

I may have read this wrongly, and apologies if so, but you appear to be conflating two different things. An 'unexplained death' means that the circumstances of the death (that aren't obviously at the hands of someone else) are unclear in terms of intent, ie was it suicide or accidental , and it will remain this way until the inquest when the Coroner makes his/her decision on the basis of the evidence presented.

The 'cause of death' just determines physically what caused the person to die, ie falling from height, multiple trauma from vehicular impact etc. That said, the phrases 'unexplained death' but with 'no suspicious circumstances' in a news story (see Tara Palmer-Tomkinson's death as a relevant and current example), tend to be police shorthand for them thinking drug overdose or something self-inflicted, though they may still be wrong about that. There still needs to be an autopsy to determine physical cause of death and an inquest to determine why the death occurred, but there's no suspicion that anyone else is involved.

In railway terms, if a person is hit on a level crossing of some description, then the cause is easy to define - multiple trauma due to vehicle impact, but the root cause will be less so without investigation. Was the person there intentionally or was it an accident? To compound this, and contrary to popular belief, the number of people who commit suicides and leave notes or an explanation is actually relatively low.
 
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fowler9

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When I had mine I was told by Police on the scene that the guy I hit had attempted suicide by train at least 4 times. The last time the day before. By attempted they meant got to a position to do the deed but didn't actually go through with it. The day before he was seen sitting on a bridge parapet.
I'm guessing while not common a few people may do this for various reasons

Yeah I understand. I am sorry to hear you went through that and I hope you are OK. It must be really hard to deal with. I honestly can't imagine how that must feel.
 
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