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Marriage discussion

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Tetchytyke

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I gave up running errands when I finished a paper round, but I'm sure the crime statistics from broken and deprived homes are readily available.

If they're so readily available you'll have them on the tip of your tongue. The only reference I can find is Iain Duncan Smith in the Daily Mail...

I'm not sure what you mean? Do you mean gay people who intend to produce offspring?

What has the divorce rate for heterosexual people got to do with a discussion about gay people being (or not being) allowed to marry?
 
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WelshBluebird

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I can only repeat that homosexual partnerships are a red herring (sic) to the main problem of stable family relationships. I shouldn't have to prove my right-on credentials to express a view on what has served the nation well until recent decades. I am not anti-homosexual, I am pro permanent and stable families. If people could put aside their rights and fulfil their responsibilities, most of the issue disappears.

I'm simply promoting the idea the beliefs surrounding Christian marriage are still viable. If that paints me as a member of the fun police, or an old square, perhaps people haven't been directly or indirectly effected by its consequences. Most of these discussions aren't about the topic - the social problems are incontrovertible - they're peer pressure and fear of seeming uncool. As I'm not interested in coolness or liberalism I'm happy to call it as I see it.

And yet none of that covers what I was asking.
Since you seem hell bent on blaming single parents for the issues of society, it would be nice for you to actually reply to questions relating to how that situation is often actually the better case (than say a child being raised in an abusive household, or a wife remaining married to her abusive husband or whatever).
 

meridian2

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And yet none of that covers what I was asking.
Since you seem hell bent on blaming single parents for the issues of society, it would be nice for you to actually reply to questions relating to how that situation is often actually the better case (than say a child being raised in an abusive household, or a wife remaining married to her abusive husband or whatever).
I commend the link to fallacious arguments above. Your response fits quite a few, see if you can find any I've missed.
 

meridian2

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What has the divorce rate for heterosexual people got to do with a discussion about gay people being (or not being) allowed to marry?
I've no idea, what's the correct answer? Certainly wasn't my point. That's the problem with straw men, they breed faster than rabbits.
 

Tetchytyke

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I'm simply promoting the idea the beliefs surrounding Christian marriage are still viable.

Which version of Christian marriage?

I've already referenced the Metropolitan Community Church, but the Presbyterians and some denominations of Quakers recognise gay marriage.
 

WelshBluebird

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I commend the link to fallacious arguments above. Your response fits quite a few, see if you can find any I've missed.

I'd hardly say it is a fallacious argument since you specifically said that:
"One of the key problems to the breakdown of society, that leads to petty and serious crime, is the breakup of two parent families".

I've no idea, what's the correct answer? Certainly wasn't my point. That's the problem with straw men, they breed faster than rabbits.

It was exactly your point. To quote - when asked about why gay marriage is a bad thing, you said:
"If it's of any relevance at all, it's as another nail in coffin of the family", and then when pushed on what you meant, you then talked about how many of todays issues are to do with the breakup of two parent families.
 
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meridian2

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not at all :roll: Why would I think that? The last thing people need are crack pot commies running the show!
You can never tell, some people are still manning the barricades after the toxic examples of Russia, China, Cuba, North Vietnam...Ah but that's not proper communism I suppose.

I'm not going to incur the wrath of mod by pursuing the argument.
 

DarloRich

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You can never tell, some people are still manning the barricades after the toxic examples of Russia, China, Cuba, North Vietnam...Ah but that's not proper communism I suppose.

I'm not going to incur the wrath of mod by pursuing the argument.

I live in the real world rather than the theoretical world. In that world communism looks like a sensible idea!
 

radamfi

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There's no need for any kind of marriage to be recognised by the state. People can have whatever kind of ceremony they want, but those who participate in such ceremonies should not have benefits or disbenefits compared to other people.
 

najaB

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People can have whatever kind of ceremony they want, but those who participate in such ceremonies should not have benefits or disbenefits compared to other people.
I don't know if I agree with that - inheritance rights for one are rightly affected by marriage/civil union.
 

meridian2

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I'd hardly say it is a fallacious argument since you specifically said that:
"One of the key problems to the breakdown of society, that leads to petty and serious crime, is the breakup of two parent families".

It was exactly your point. To quote - when asked about why gay marriage is a bad thing, you said:
"If it's of any relevance at all, it's as another nail in coffin of the family", and then when pushed on what you meant, you then talked about how many of todays issues are to do with the breakup of two parent families.
I stand by both those quotes, but I don't see how that equates to "since you seem hell bent on blaming single parents for the issues of society". You've lost any nuance by converting "one of the key problems" (which is born out by the evidence), into an exclusive cause, especially one inferring that I blame the abandoned partner and children.

Clearly there are many problems that influence the break up of families (poverty through lack of work, alcohol and drug problems, mental health caused by both) one of which is a lack of seriousness about the institution of marriage and the ease with which it is dispensed with. To say well you know, some men are violent and abusive is to misrepresent the motives of those who just get cheesed off with the drudgery or fancy something tastier. I read somewhere last week that divorce rates in the US are nearer one in two than one in three, which suggest the screw it tendency is more prevalent than the abuser from whom any family should rightly flee. I'm not suggesting dreadful things don't happen in families, I'm saying there's a better way of conducting society (including marriage) than the one we're currently overseeing.
 

meridian2

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I live in the real world rather than the theoretical world. In that world communism looks like a sensible idea!
I spent some time on the other side of the wall enjoying the social philosophy of Herr Marx. Sensible wouldn't be the way I'd describe it, and fun it certainly wasn't.
 

meridian2

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Which version of Christian marriage?

I've already referenced the Metropolitan Community Church, but the Presbyterians and some denominations of Quakers recognise gay marriage.
Wikipedia may not be your friend, but it's ok for the basics.
 

DarloRich

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I spent some time on the other side of the wall enjoying the social philosophy of Herr Marx. Sensible wouldn't be the way I'd describe it, and fun it certainly wasn't.

that is why it looks sensible in theory. The reality is somewhat different.

I stand by both those quotes, but I don't see how that equates to "since you seem hell bent on blaming single parents for the issues of society". You've lost any nuance by converting "one of the key problems" (which is born out by the evidence), into an exclusive cause, especially one inferring that I blame the abandoned partner and children.

Clearly there are many problems that influence the break up of families (poverty through lack of work, alcohol and drug problems, mental health caused by both) one of which is a lack of seriousness about the institution of marriage and the ease with which it is dispensed with. To say well you know, some men are violent and abusive is to misrepresent the motives of those who just get cheesed off with the drudgery or fancy something tastier. I read somewhere last week that divorce rates in the US are nearer one in two than one in three, which suggest the screw it tendency is more prevalent than the abuser from whom any family should rightly flee. I'm not suggesting dreadful things don't happen in families, I'm saying there's a better way of conducting society (including marriage) than the one we're currently overseeing.

but you are investing in marriage some form of mythical ability to cure the problems of society. It simply cant do that.
 

Johnuk123

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You couldn't find a more unsuitable place to have a discussion about marriage then here.
This forum is packed full of terribly insecure and weird individuals who can't or don't want to make friends, have no social skills and are total loners.
 

DarloRich

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You can write a will.

Of course - but you shouldn't HAVE to write a will to provide for your partner because you happen to be gay. If i marry and want to leave everything to my wife i need not do anything. If i am gay i must draft a will, without access to the same tax planning options as a married couple, in order to provide for my partner.

Look at the intestacy rules.
 
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DarloRich

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You couldn't find a more unsuitable place to have a discussion about marriage then here.
This forum is packed full of terribly insecure and weird individuals who can't or don't want to make friends, have no social skills and are total loners.

I object to that. I have some social skills. ;)
 

meridian2

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but you are investing in marriage some form of mythical ability to cure the problems of society. It simply cant do that.
I'm not and never have. I'm saying social conservatism (and let's cut that term loose from party politics once and for all), of which traditional family marriage is a part, offers a better societal model than the narcissistic, novelty obsessed, inequitable, faux social and monetary liberalism that currently dominates the political discourse.
 

radamfi

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Of course - but you shouldn't HAVE to write a will to provide for your partner because you happen to be gay. If i marry and want to leave everything to my wife i need not do anything. If i am gay i must draft a will, without access to the same tax planning options as a married couple, in order to provide for my partner.

Look at the intestacy rules.

I don't see why a heterosexual partner should get your things by default either. If marriage is not recognised by the state, then everyone who has a specific desire for something to happen after death would have to make a will, gay or straight.
 

Tetchytyke

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This forum is packed full of terribly insecure and weird individuals who can't or don't want to make friends, have no social skills and are total loners.

I take exception to that. I have some social skills, I'm just a misanthrope :lol:
 

meridian2

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A thread on the merits of gay marriage, and you wibble about broken homes.

Still, at least you've proven you're trolling by derailment. Next.
The thread has nothing to do with me, despite my name being on the top. I was making a political point in a political thread. It became derailed because my political position provoked a circlejerk which the moderator, not unreasonably, came down on.

Since then this has become a how often do you beat your wife thread, in which people download whatever bile they can muster on to my pretty mainstream stance. Trolling, it certainly is not.
 

radamfi

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Because that's one of the reasons to enter marriage/civil partnership.

Because the law says so. I say it shouldn't. A will provides for that anyway, and also allows the flexibility for others to inherit, such as children, cats' home or UKIP.
 

EM2

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How about some facts or evidence about your claim that "One of the key problems to the breakdown of society, that leads to petty and serious crime, is the breakup of two parent families"?
In fact, I'll go further then my previous statement and state that of *everyone* that I know who was either themselves a child of a single parent, or is themselves a single parent, none of them or their offspring have, to my knowledge, committed a crime of any kind (with the possible exception of minor motoring offences).
 
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DarloRich

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I don't see why a heterosexual partner should get your things by default either. If marriage is not recognised by the state, then everyone who has a specific desire for something to happen after death would have to make a will, gay or straight.

you miss the point - marriage IS recognised by the state and delivers significant taxation benefits, especially in the field of inheritance tax.

I'm not and never have. I'm saying social conservatism (and let's cut that term loose from party politics once and for all), of which traditional family marriage is a part, offers a better societal model than the narcissistic, novelty obsessed, inequitable, faux social and monetary liberalism that currently dominates the political discourse.

I know what you are saying: That being in a solid family unit is better all round. I don't agree. It simply isnt that conclusive. I think that bigger governing factors are wealth/poverty, housing, opportunity and employment.
 
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