GCR/GCRN Question.

Tomnick · 13 Feb 2009

Phoenix said:
To be honest I would agree some professionalism is needed in these sorts of matters but when it comes to things like medicals I honestly don't think it matters.

I've tried to keep out of this discussion thus far, as one who has long been shouting for higher standards at our end (which is slowly but very surely happening), but I can't let that comment go unnoticed. Medicals are every bit as important as compliance with rules and regs, and far more important (as far as the safety of the line - no. 1 priority - is concerned) than whether the first train runs on time or not at all. A lack of a sound system for ensuring that medicals are up-to-date firstly leaves great potential for, say, a driver to be driving who's not fit to be driving (for example, because he can't see further than a loco-length!). It's not just about whether you can lift a buckeye or not. Secondly, it leaves the railway very much wide open to - at best- some fairly heavy criticism should an incident occur. The buck won't stop there either - those who think that 'playing trains' is appropriate (a general comment - not passing judgment on GCRN or indeed any other outfit) would do well to consider the entirely feasible possibility of a spell at Her Majesty's pleasure.

Tom (GCR Signalman and a few other bits)

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bunnahabhain · 13 Feb 2009

Phoenix said:
Yes indeed you are correct in saying they do more diesel turns than they originally did but I still get slightly Miffed when they advertise a diesel gala and run a steam train I am in no way Anti steam but if I pay to see diesel I'm happier with the knowledge that's it's all diesel regardless of whether there's steam needed for Sunday lunch or not.

Then you're a bit sad if a single return trip that's generally unadvertised during diesel gala weekends offends you enough to make you dislike a line so much. I suppose you're more one of those people that photographs and contributes little?

Phoenix · 13 Feb 2009

Tomnick said:
I've tried to keep out of this discussion thus far, as one who has long been shouting for higher standards at our end (which is slowly but very surely happening), but I can't let that comment go unnoticed. Medicals are every bit as important as compliance with rules and regs, and far more important (as far as the safety of the line - no. 1 priority - is concerned) than whether the first train runs on time or not at all. A lack of a sound system for ensuring that medicals are up-to-date firstly leaves great potential for, say, a driver to be driving who's not fit to be driving (for example, because he can't see further than a loco-length!). It's not just about whether you can lift a buckeye or not. Secondly, it leaves the railway very much wide open to - at best- some fairly heavy criticism should an incident occur. The buck won't stop there either - those who think that 'playing trains' is appropriate (a general comment - not passing judgment on GCRN or indeed any other outfit) would do well to consider the entirely feasible possibility of a spell at Her Majesty's pleasure.

Tom (GCR Signalman and a few other bits)

Well the driver situation goes without saying and all drivers are checked and tested at all railways.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to think that an epileptic could become a driver maybe a second man but not a driver.
And im sorry but the buckeye was an example of a story considering I used to volunteer myself until University stopped me having the time.
So what I mean to say is I indeed understand the severity of the situation all im saying is there are quite a few volunteers who wouldn't pass who for instances could be guards or even Pway.

In a thought unrelated to your post I think this playing trains B.S is pathetic and the people who hold this belief to be true need to seriously evaluate there own position within the railways as they are not very far off from apparently playing trains themselves or in this case playing the "fat controller".

BJMorley · 13 Feb 2009

Jamie said:
Then you're a bit sad if a single return trip that's generally unadvertised during diesel gala weekends offends you enough to make you dislike a line so much. I suppose you're more one of those people that photographs and contributes little?

If you read his post, he is at University so he can't contribute, but I bet if he had the time he would be.

bunnahabhain · 13 Feb 2009

BJMorley said:
If you read his post, he is at University so he can't contribute, but I bet if he had the time he would be.

You are aware there are more ways to contribute other than with time are you not?

Flipper · 13 Feb 2009

Phoenix said:
I honestly love the GCRN I had a great time and would rather see it in GCRN ownership and the playing trains statement.

That says it all really I guess. I have to say that I'm glad that I work with railwaymen, not big children.

Better than guards purposly walking infront your shots like on the GCR.
Sorry but it's getting annoying.

Presumably then taking pictures is your second love, after playing trains ?

BJMorley · 13 Feb 2009

Big bloody children? Well, are you any better? Slagging off us on your first post?
I would never slag off any railway just becuase they might run something differently to another.

Flipper · 13 Feb 2009

With my second post, please allow me to pose a simple question.

Is it:

a) A good thing that people providing a public transport service see it all as a jolly good wheeze, and seem to consider that such things as medicals for safety critical staff are too troublesome to administer as most of their staff would fail them anyway (what an admission to make). Or;

b) A bad thing ?

Just curious.

Oh, and in passing, it seems that the OP is perhaps slightly confused as to the difference between Guards and Porters - surely not a good sign.

Phoenix · 13 Feb 2009

Jamie said:
Then you're a bit sad if a single return trip that's generally unadvertised during diesel gala weekends offends you enough to make you dislike a line so much. I suppose you're more one of those people that photographs and contributes little?

To be honest your not going about this in a decent manner are you?
I clearly stated that I take no sides but if you wish then we shall disscuss.
First all I come to your railway ride on the trains but you wouldn't know that because you know very little about me and are clearly picking the bad points and not the good points about my post.
I am a volunteer at the MRC and enjoy doing it to a great extent but trying to juggle University studies/seeing both of my divorced parents and on top of that seeing my girlfriend I don't have every sunday free to travel 40 miles from Birmingham to Derby.

And please don't go down the freeloading photography avenue as it's pretty pathetic my time and money is good enough if you take the time actually ask me what I did at your railway you will be surprised.

And just to be pedantic I'll list it for you.

1.I bought A rover for your Diesel gala.
2.Decided to have breakfast on this train.
3.Bought some magazines from one of the shops.
4.Had a cup of tea and biscuits.
5.Bought yet more food.

So you obviously have no idea do you.
In future don't assume as it does make this rather unpleasent.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Flipper said:
That says it all really I guess. I have to say that I'm glad that I work with railwaymen, not big children.

As a new member it would be in your best interests to think before you speak as you clearly did not see the part when I said I like both thus making this situation more stupid than it needs to be.

theblackwatch · 14 Feb 2009

Personally I have not problem with the odd 'kettle' being thrown in at diesel events - I've enjoyed several winning steam locos at modern traction events in the past, which have enabled me to get a 'red pen' as well as spending most of the day behind diesel traction. What I dislike is when the steam is used more than any of the diesels. I have been to galas (not at the GC!) where, because of the number of locos present has meant that each diesel only gets one or two trips, yet the obligatory steam loco gets three turns! This really isn't on in my view.

Flipper · 14 Feb 2009

Phoenix said:
And please don't go down the freeloading photography avenue as it's pretty pathetic my time and money is good enough if you take the time actually ask me what I did at your railway you will be surprised.

And just to be pedantic I'll list it for you.

1.I bought A rover for your Diesel gala.
2.Decided to have breakfast on this train.
3.Bought some magazines from one of the shops.
4.Had a cup of tea and biscuits.
5.Bought yet more food.

Wow, I bet that Jamie is really grateful

Look, I know it's not a contest, and that preserved lines are always genuinely grateful for passengers time and money, but maybe you ought to ask Jamie what he did at the same gala. It might help explain why he feels so passionately about the operation.

As a new member it would be in your best interests to think before you speak as you clearly did not see the part when I said I like both thus making this situation more stupid than it needs to be.

Don't come the old sweat with me, the lamp swinging doesn't impress me.

You seem to be saying above that you genuninely believe that there is still a place for the "playing trains" mentality in a preserved railway operation ("I said I like both"). There isn't, those days are long past thankfully, and any line that encourages their staff to think like that today is looking to get themselves shutdown - hopefully *before* they kill somebody.

You're transporting the public here, you can't mess around with that. And perhaps more importantly the "it's all a game" approach is far more likely to kill or injure a member of staff than a passenger.

If you want to play at trains then *please* stick to buying the occasional Rover ticket and flailing out of the window.

Flip

87015 · 14 Feb 2009

theblackwatch said:
Personally I have not problem with the odd 'kettle' being thrown in at diesel events - I've enjoyed several winning steam locos at modern traction events in the past, which have enabled me to get a 'red pen' as well as spending most of the day behind diesel traction. What I dislike is when the steam is used more than any of the diesels. I have been to galas (not at the GC!) where, because of the number of locos present has meant that each diesel only gets one or two trips, yet the obligatory steam loco gets three turns! This really isn't on in my view.

Agreed. Well, apart from that I can't red pen kettles as don't know one from the other!

And I couldn't possibly think of which line you might be describing with the latter part...

Phoenix · 14 Feb 2009

Flipper said:
Wow, I bet that Jamie is really grateful Look, I know it's not a contest, and that preserved lines are always genuinely grateful for passengers time and money, but maybe you ought to ask Jamie what he did at the same gala. It might help explain why he feels so passionately about the operation.

Don't come the old sweat with me, the lamp swinging doesn't impress me.

You seem to be saying above that you genuninely believe that there is still a place for the "playing trains" mentality in a preserved railway operation ("I said I like both"). There isn't, those days are long past thankfully, and any line that encourages their staff to think like that today is looking to get themselves shutdown - hopefully *before* they kill somebody.

You're transporting the public here, you can't mess around with that. And perhaps more importantly the "it's all a game" approach is far more likely to kill or injure a member of staff than a passenger.

If you want to play at trains then *please* stick to buying the occasional Rover ticket and flailing out of the window.

Flip

Well the thing is you say it isn't a contest but it is becoming one because photographers such as myself at the moment are being accused of freeloading which is quite annoying because we love what we do and love the railways so to be branded in such a way is quite annoying.

Also I don't intend to lamp swing but you clearly have not thought this through as I your talking about stuff without looking at the whole situation through and through.

Also yes I may take it slightly lightly the importance of safety but please remember I am only a trainee guard so and have not had much time around the preserved railways workings to realize the severity.

As for the flailing out the window comment it really does show you are quite a novice in the art of discussion as it's a pretty childish thing to say if you want a nice decent discussion please keep the snide comments to a minimum and I mean this with the utmost respect.

Tomnick · 14 Feb 2009

Phoenix said:
Well the driver situation goes without saying and all drivers are checked and tested at all railways.
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to think that an epileptic could become a driver maybe a second man but not a driver.
And im sorry but the buckeye was an example of a story considering I used to volunteer myself until University stopped me having the time.
So what I mean to say is I indeed understand the severity of the situation all im saying is there are quite a few volunteers who wouldn't pass who for instances could be guards or even Pway.

In a thought unrelated to your post I think this playing trains B.S is pathetic and the people who hold this belief to be true need to seriously evaluate there own position within the railways as they are not very far off from apparently playing trains themselves or in this case playing the "fat controller".

To be honest, I'm starting to lose track of where this debate is going! I certainly don't want to get involved in the 'freeloading photographers' argument, other than to pick up on an earlier comment regarding the GC's requirement that linesiders (including staff who wish to go lineside for photography, not in the course of their duties) hold a numbered hi-vis. Is it really a bad idea - worse than a much lower level of control and no procedure to report (specific) photographers putting themselves and the safety of the line in danger?

Back to the medical situation, and the point raised in the post quoted above - I'm glad you accept that drivers are safety-critical and therefore worthy of strict medical controls, but a little concerned that you don't consider secondmen and (especially) guards in the same bracket. Either of those could just as well contribute or cause a SOL incident (SPAD, leaving station with doors wide open, just to name two possibilities of many), and - should it be reportable - I'm sure that there'd be many serious questions to be answered. There's no place for a guard - trainee or otherwise - to be taking safety lightly...you should be well aware of the risk of killing yourself or someone else before going anywhere near a safety-critical role.

I fully agree that the 'playing train' Bravo Sierra is pathetic, but maybe you should ask people hold this belief. Some of the content of this thread could quite easily point you in that direction! I don't think anyone's playing the 'Fat Controller' - we're proud of our professional standards and don't want the reputation of heritage railway tarnished by those who appear to take things less seriously.

Phoenix · 14 Feb 2009

Tomnick said:
To be honest, I'm starting to lose track of where this debate is going! I certainly don't want to get involved in the 'freeloading photographers' argument, other than to pick up on an earlier comment regarding the GC's requirement that linesiders (including staff who wish to go lineside for photography, not in the course of their duties) hold a numbered hi-vis. Is it really a bad idea - worse than a much lower level of control and no procedure to report (specific) photographers putting themselves and the safety of the line in danger?

Back to the medical situation, and the point raised in the post quoted above - I'm glad you accept that drivers are safety-critical and therefore worthy of strict medical controls, but a little concerned that you don't consider secondmen and (especially) guards in the same bracket. Either of those could just as well contribute or cause a SOL incident (SPAD, leaving station with doors wide open, just to name two possibilities of many), and - should it be reportable - I'm sure that there'd be many serious questions to be answered. There's no place for a guard - trainee or otherwise - to be taking safety lightly...you should be well aware of the risk of killing yourself or someone else before going anywhere near a safety-critical role.

I fully agree that the 'playing train' Bravo Sierra is pathetic, but maybe you should ask people hold this belief. Some of the content of this thread could quite easily point you in that direction! I don't think anyone's playing the 'Fat Controller' - we're proud of our professional standards and don't want the reputation of heritage railway tarnished by those who appear to take things less seriously.

Well to be honest I am also losing track and thank you for the well detailed honest reply although we may disagree on some point it's cool to see someone with a good way of putting their points across.

So that will be the end from me.

Muppet56097 · 15 Feb 2009

I think this debate has become completely divorced from reality.

At the GCRN all operational staff have to provide documented evidence of medical fitness. That's it. End of story. No medical = no work permit for safety critical duties. Whatever the ill informed may believe to be the case, everyone involved in safety critical operational duties must have a valid medical.

How long a particular medical lasts depends on the age of the person concerned. I have just had mine renewed. It was carried out by a BUPA doctor to Network Rail standards. Indeed, she carries out the same medical for various TOCs. I am in my 30s, and at my age I need a new medical every 5 years, but the older you get the more frequent the medicals become.

Can we please just put to bed the rather harmful suggestion that there is anything lax about medical standards at the GCRN. It is simply not the case, and I am surprised people have been prepared to debate something that was allegedly "heard in the pub" (see many posts ago - that is where this started).

This is the worst sort of gossiping on the basis of half truths, and should not be allowed to become "fact" by repetition.

Let's end it now. Assessed standards of competence at the GCRN are rigorous and completely in order. That includes medical fitness.

I don't think it would be helpful for me to refer everyone to the RAIB investigation into a collision at the GCR at Loughborough would it? Fireman's eyesight, and failure to wear glasses the subject of specific comment. People in glass houses would be well advised to keep very, very quiet.

Phoenix · 15 Feb 2009

Muppet56097 said:
I don't think it would be helpful for me to refer everyone to the RAIB investigation into a collision at the GCR at Loughborough would it? Fireman's eyesight, and failure to wear glasses the subject of specific comment. People in glass houses would be well advised to keep very, very quiet.

Fair point overall..........But the RAIB threat is fueling the fire there and let's be honest all of us are standing in glass houses at all times so rather than telling everyone to keep quiet I suggest that people in glass houses should just not throw stones (As the saying goes)

But anywho as I said before this thread has gone far away from it's original purpose so I suggest no one say's anything.

Tomnick · 15 Feb 2009

Muppet56097 said:
I don't think it would be helpful for me to refer everyone to the RAIB investigation into a collision at the GCR at Loughborough would it? Fireman's eyesight, and failure to wear glasses the subject of specific comment. People in glass houses would be well advised to keep very, very quiet.

Funnily enough I very nearly referred to that very investigation myself, as a shining example of the importance of keeping accurate medical records. Yes, there clearly were failings at the GCR on that occasion, and yes, lessons have been learned and those failings put right in dramatic fashion! The loco department has been completely transformed under the new management structure down there - is it really relevant to drag up an event from three years ago for comparison?

Just to clarify my position on this, you'll notice that none of my posts thus far have referred to anything 'heard down the pub'. Indeed, I've got no personal axe to grind with the GCR(N), and have tried to avoid specifically referring to it - my comments and concerns have been based entirely on the comments made by other members in this thread! That alone, to me, paints its own picture of the attitude towards safety. That's not to say that the picture is accurate, and it's good to see that someone's got sufficient confidence in the operation to shout that it's not a good picture after all!

For the record, I don't know a great deal about the GCR(N) operation - but it is definitely on my list of things to 'do'. Then I'll see for myself whether this debate has been meaningless or not! See you all soon...

CRank DAt · 26 Mar 2009

i think the idea of "playing trains" has been misunderstood by jaime ect.
GCRN tend to run trains that are neccesary and economical to what GCRN needs and has the current market for.
whereas GCR S appear to have this strict policy of they must run large locomotives and have this false mainline image which cost's a fortune to run, steaming fees, maintenance coal and water upkeep of track, bridges, coaching stock, extra S+T that is always being installed. which is usually unaccounted for.
this pretense image, although maybe fun for the individuals and the ones holding the cameras never really pays for itself, in this area anyway.
double track might be great to "Play" at running a mainline railway. Wow.
but realistically this isnt the most cost worthy option.
i think loughborough has a serious image and culture problem.
jaime, when you have actually tried working at another line and seen something different or above what the GCR S puts on then im sure you will have a better perspective of things as opposed to being always correct.

bunnahabhain · 26 Mar 2009

CRank DAt said:
i think the idea of "playing trains" has been misunderstood by jaime ect.
GCRN tend to run trains that are neccesary and economical to what GCRN needs and has the current market for.
whereas GCR S appear to have this strict policy of they must run large locomotives and have this false mainline image which cost's a fortune to run, steaming fees, maintenance coal and water upkeep of track, bridges, coaching stock, extra S+T that is always being installed. which is usually unaccounted for.
this pretense image, although maybe fun for the individuals and the ones holding the cameras never really pays for itself, in this area anyway.
double track might be great to "Play" at running a mainline railway. Wow.
but realistically this isnt the most cost worthy option.
i think loughborough has a serious image and culture problem.
jaime, when you have actually tried working at another line and seen something different or above what the GCR S puts on then im sure you will have a better perspective of things as opposed to being always correct.

I might start taking you seriously if you can take the time to learn how to spell correctly. I wasn't aware that the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre had double track either.

Tomnick · 26 Mar 2009

Wow, what a response! Well I'm not Jamie, but I'd like to respond anyway, as I suppose I come under the umbrella of "jaime ect". I have indeed 'tried' working at another line - I first passed out as a signalman on the North Norfolk Railway (unfortunately I've had to let my ticket lapse, as I can't commit the time required to get there at the moment!), which was a very good recreation of a seaside branch line...as of course it used to be.

On the GC, the aim always has been to recreate a mainline. The large locos and the double track is, to me, an essential part of recreating that - like it or not, it's a big draw for visitors. Where else can you run 4 or 5 departures an hour? I had 6 arrivals at Loughborough between 1500 and 1600 last Sunday. Such an intensive service has got to be an attraction in itself.

I appreciate that some people might go to a railway purely for 'mileage', and don't care what they see or pass along the way. For me - and I suspect many others, including the all important 'normals' - I go there for the whole experience, and that includes an intensive and interesting service, plenty of shunting, goods trains (how much money do they make??) and (above all!) proper signalling.

Incidentally, I'd be interested to know how you can justify claiming that our 'extra' S&T work is "usually unaccounted for"? Although the 'normal' timetables generally don't require Quorn to be switched in, I've lost count of the number of times it has avoided a delay. Swithland, similarly, will break up the longest AB section (and also allow one to be accepted from Quorn behind one waiting for the single line at Rothley - a big bottleneck), allowing us to run even more traffic...making it even more of an attraction.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Tom (GCR)

AlexS · 26 Mar 2009

And anyone who thinks the GCR S&T department is an unaccounted for money pit doesn't have a clue what they're talking about.

Through providing services to other railways and trading and selling equipment amassed over years of operation, the GCR S&T makes a net profit contribution to the railway each year.

CRank DAt · 26 Mar 2009

a bit of a typo there.

i ment certain parts of the infastucture are not accouted for when it comes to wear and maintenance costs. this wasnt directed at S+T it just happed to be at the end of the list.

bunnahabhain · 26 Mar 2009

CRank DAt said:
a bit of a typo there.

i ment certain parts of the infastucture are not accouted for when it comes to wear and maintenance costs. this wasnt directed at S+T it just happed to be at the end of the list.

What isn't accounted for then?

AlexS · 27 Mar 2009

CRank DAt said:
a bit of a typo there.

i ment certain parts of the infastucture are not accouted for when it comes to wear and maintenance costs. this wasnt directed at S+T it just happed to be at the end of the list.

The GCR accounts for getting on for 13 miles give or take of main running line and numerous sidings. Our inspectors and managers tend to be railway professionals and well and truly know what they're about.

CRank DAt · 28 Mar 2009

i just dont think whats invested into the place and all this constant expansion gets an adequate return on it. apart from the on train catering.
and if you look at the majority of the coaching stock it is in various states of neglect and disrepair. so this is one that has been overlooked in recent years. you can't expect to keep running all this extra milage on these gala's and just assume there will always be stock availble. painting doesnt keep the wheels going round.
also installing extra S+T everywhere. you still have to maintain it all for years to come. so increasing the amount of it just increases the expense of looking after it. and having more signals might mean you can run more trains but does that really mean more passengers. Galas are an exception though.
kids and the parents just want a train ride. their not interested in double track, signalling, Tornado ect.

Tomnick · 28 Mar 2009

CRank DAt said:
i just dont think whats invested into the place and all this constant expansion gets an adequate return on it. apart from the on train catering.
and if you look at the majority of the coaching stock it is in various states of neglect and disrepair. so this is one that has been overlooked in recent years. you can't expect to keep running all this extra milage on these gala's and just assume there will always be stock availble. painting doesnt keep the wheels going round.

Maybe a valid concern - I don't know. Trust me though, if the wheels aren't going round, I'll be throwing some signals back rather rapidly!

also installing extra S+T everywhere. you still have to maintain it all for years to come. so increasing the amount of it just increases the expense of looking after it. and having more signals might mean you can run more trains but does that really mean more passengers. Galas are an exception though.

Galas may be an exception to the rule, but they're a significant source of revenue. I'm sure the additional revenue from just one gala would cover the expense of maintaining the intermediate box at Quorn - we'd need Loughborough and Rothley for the 'normal' operation anyway. It's certainly not a case of randomly installing 'S&T everywhere' - Quorn had a clear purpose (and has reduced the previous 20+ minute headway to somewhere around 12) and so will Swithland (allowing proper access to the extensive sidings - an attraction in itself - and reducing headway overall to about 10 minutes - 5tph anyone?)

As has already been suggested though, the S&T department doesn't 'cost' the railway - quite the opposite, in fact.

kids and the parents just want a train ride. their not interested in double track, signalling, Tornado ect.

Wrong, so very wrong. If the railway had £1 for every ('normal') family that turned up at the box door wanting to have a look inside and learn how it works, then we'd have crossed the Gap already! As I said, it's all part of the experience for people.

That includes driver experience customers too (another very significant source of revenue) - I'm sure they're influenced by the double track and 'proper' signalling.

CRank DAt · 1 Apr 2009

ok,
You just continue playing trains.

Clive Hanleys photo's were great.

bunnahabhain · 1 Apr 2009

CRank DAt said:
ok,
You just continue playing trains.
Clive Hanleys photo's were great.

I'm happy we were able to debunk your entire argument. If you have any more questions about the GCR I'm sure myself, Tomnick, Flipper and Alex will be more than happy to fill you in on stuff.

CRank DAt · 7 Apr 2009

awww
"We" didnt debunk anything,
i just wrote keep playing trains.

i know lets invent something, lets put a 37 event on. in the week. lol

GCR/GCRN Question.

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