Smoking ban, the impact 10 years on.

I don't think there is a specific bylaw banning vaping but most TOCs have banned it none the less.

Regarding smoking on open platforms I think it was the Tyne and Wear Metro that banned it first when the network opened in 1980 and smoking was banned across the whole network. At the time however this level of ban was almost unheard of.

With the London Underground smoking was banned on trains in 1984 and in underground stations the same year after the Oxford Circus fire. It was not enforced properly however which lead to the Kings Cross fire of 1988 after that it was strictly enforced. I think smoking on above ground station of the tube in 2006.

The last TOC to ban smoking was GNER in 2005.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4192862.stm

infobleep said:

I believe Fishguard station is one such place where you can still smoke on the platforms. That sends out a nice uniform message, not. Still how many people use Fishguard who smoke and are aware they can smoke there?

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Yes its not a Network Rail station, I`ve actually been a few
times in the early hours and yes you do find the odd person smoking on the platforms, there are no "no smoking" signs and loud speakers telling you it is illegal to smoke on railway stations, or you vill be shot!

Vaping should come under the same rules as smoking.

Not because it is as bad as smoking (at least in health terms), but because it can stink the place out of done for a prolonged period of time. It would be akin to someone spraying deodorant, perfume or aftershave every few puffs. I'm am enclosed space, especially like a train carriage that's going to annoy a lot of people very quickly.

Also, although the addictive elements are tiny in each puff in a coach with a few people putting away a few puffs every minute for five minutes the overall levels could start to become a problem some people (such as those who have managed to totally quit smoking/vaping).

(Due the record spraying deodorant, perfume or aftershave on trains and at stations should also be banned, not that many do it).

The Ham said:

Vaping should come under the same rules as smoking.

Not because it is as bad as smoking (at least in health terms), but because it can stink the place out of done for a prolonged period of time. It would be akin to someone spraying deodorant, perfume or aftershave every few puffs. I'm am enclosed space, especially like a train carriage that's going to annoy a lot of people very quickly.

Also, although the addictive elements are tiny in each puff in a coach with a few people putting away a few puffs every minute for five minutes the overall levels could start to become a problem some people (such as those who have managed to totally quit smoking/vaping).

(Due the record spraying deodorant, perfume or aftershave on trains and at stations should also be banned, not that many do it).

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As far as I'm aware, on buses there's no distinction between vaping and 'smoking' - their ban does not state 'No nicotine', it states 'No smoking'.

Vaping is still 'smoking'.

What is bad about smokers is the way they cheat. They stand one metre outside of a station entrance or door, so that you have to hold your breath while passing them. Then they enter the carriage and stink the place out with their still-smoky breath and clothing. I don't think smokers have any idea just how unpleasant their presence is to the senses. I would like to see a law to ban smoking within 20 yards of publicly-used premises. I would like to see all pubs non-smoking including outside

It's the same outside offices and they create litter too, unless the firm has provided a receptacle, and that presence of one just encourages them to smoke there rather than 20 yards down the street.

Robertj21a said:

As far as I'm aware, on buses there's no distinction between vaping and 'smoking' - their ban does not state 'No nicotine', it states 'No smoking'.

Vaping is still 'smoking'.

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Vaping is not "smoking" because no smoke is produced.

The Ham said:

Vaping should come under the same rules as smoking.

Not because it is as bad as smoking (at least in health terms)

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I do agree with your view that it should be seen the same as smoking in terms of where it is permitted and where not (simply because both habits are equally antisocial in terms of their effects on the comfort of others), but it is not presently understood to be anywhere near as unhealthy as smoking, hence its being promoted as a sensible alternative to cigarettes for those who find quitting fully too difficult.

Speaking as an asthma-sufferer who is susceptible to smoke.

The law should have been written to encompass a ban on smoking in such positions that allow smoke to blow or drift into non-smoking areas. Stations are generally open-air and the crowd of 10-20 commuters having a quick fag just outside the station entrance at my local stop often means the main waiting area on the platforms is full of their drifting fug. Surely a concentrated amount of second hand smoke regularly breathed is more harmful than the well-spread low level of smoke that existed before?

Wilts Wanderer said:

Speaking as an asthma-sufferer who is susceptible to smoke.

The law should have been written to encompass a ban on smoking in such positions that allow smoke to blow or drift into non-smoking areas. Stations are generally open-air and the crowd of 10-20 commuters having a quick fag just outside the station entrance at my local stop often means the main waiting area on the platforms is full of their drifting fug. Surely a concentrated amount of second hand smoke regularly breathed is more harmful than the well-spread low level of smoke that existed before?

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I`m sorry to hear about your asthma, a terrible illness, I`m curious though, how are you effected by diesel fumes at railway stations or steam specials?

thenorthern said:

I don't think there is a specific bylaw banning vaping but most TOCs have banned it none the less.

Regarding smoking on open platforms I think it was the Tyne and Wear Metro that banned it first when the network opened in 1980 and smoking was banned across the whole network. At the time however this level of ban was almost unheard of.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4192862.stm

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I`m surprised the Tyne and Wear haven't banned passengers, they appear to have banned everything else :roll:

I have seen plenty of people smoking on the platforms at Chorley,even though there are signs, this has been going on for years.

As for smoking a few yards from entrances to stations or pubs,i would have imagined this is a public footpath and nothing can be done about it.

I am a reformed smoker and only vape now. Not on stations though of course.

Robertj21a said:

As far as I'm aware, on buses there's no distinction between vaping and 'smoking' - their ban does not state 'No nicotine', it states 'No smoking'.

Vaping is still 'smoking'.

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So presumably chewing tobacco is allowed (although lack of spittoon provision may cause problems).

Bletchleyite said:

Vaping is not "smoking" because no smoke is produced.

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Vaping is not permitted on UK buses:-

https://www.ok-ecig.com/can-cant-vape-uk

WHERE CAN YOU VAPE – UPDATED: FEBRUARY 2017
Whilst in the majority of outdoor public places it is still OK to vape, many companies and methods of transport have banned vaping on their premises so we have compiled a list of exactly where to avoid vaping so you can enjoy your e-cigarette without getting into trouble!


WHERE CAN I VAPE?
TRAINS
Vaping is prohibited on all train networks, including the London Underground. Using e-cigarettes and vaping at train stations is also prohibited.

AIRPORTS AND PLANES
As with regular cigarettes, using e-cigarettes is banned on flights and can also set off alarms in the toilets so don’t risk it or you could get in serious trouble!

Every airport in the UK has also banned the use of e-cigarettes except for within their designated outdoor smoking areas. London Heathrow used to allow vaping in a designated lounge but we asked them if that was still the case and got the reply ‘we do not allow the use of e-cigarettes in our premises’, so it looks like Heathrow’s vaping lounge is no more.

With laws relating to e-cigarettes varying from country to country, it is always best to stay on the safe side and check whether it is legal to vape in the country you’re heading to before you even get to the airport as some people have had their e-cigarettes taken off them when going through security at their destination. We’ve compiled a list of some of the countries where we know that vaping and/or carrying e-cigarettes is restricted – scroll to the bottom of the page to find out more.

BUSES AND COACHES
We couldn’t find any bus or coach companies that allow vaping on board their vehicles. We wouldn’t be tempted to risk it either, you don’t want to be responsible for a situation like this E-Cig on Megabus causes police search and M6 closure

TAXIS
This is entirely down to the taxi driver and/or their company policies, so always ask first and respect their wishes/policies if they ask you not to.

SPORTS STADIUMS & MUSIC VENUES
Most sports stadiums have banned vaping in their stands/grounds. It’s best to assume that if you can’t smoke, you can’t vape. Wembley stadium does not permit the use of e-cigarettes anywhere in the grounds and you can expect the same to be said for other major UK stadiums and concert venues. The NEC in Birmingham also says that vaping is not permitted inside their buildings, although they do permit it twice a year when the fantastic Vaper Expo UK is held there.

You may find that smaller music venues or local sports clubs have a more relaxed attitude to vaping so there’s no harm in asking the venue owner or a member of staff if you can use your e-cigarette inside.

HOSPITALS
Depending on where in the UK you are, the policy on vaping in hospitals can vary enormously. Hospitals in Scotland for instance have banned e-cigarettes across hospital grounds, not just in the hospitals themselves, with the exception of the NHS Lothian Trust. Though strictly speaking, there is no blanket ban on vaping in England and Wales, many hospitals do enforce a vaping ban.

RESTAURANTS
Currently, unlike with smoking, there is no blanket ban on vaping in pubs and restaurants. Many pubs will probably let you use an e-cigarette, though it is always best to check first. A number of chain restaurants and cafes, however, ban vaping across all their branches including KFC, Starbucks and Caffe Nero.

HOTELS
The vaping policy in hotels does tend to vary. Some are strict about prohibiting it and others may allow you to vape in your room. We would always recommend checking however as some hotels have very sensitive smoke alarms and no one wants to be the person who has every guest in the hotel stood outside in their pyjamas at 2am because you decided to have a late night vape (not that we’re speaking from experience…)

CRUISE SHIPS/FERRIES
The general consensus is that you can only vape in designated smoking areas. A lot of cruise companies have banned smoking on cabin balconies and it is likely that vaping may also be prohibited, so check with your cruise provider before you do. With regards to using them in your cabins, the same would apply as with hotels so it’s probably best not to vape when inside.

So the gist of it is, you can’t really vape in any public indoor buildings these days, so always assume that you can’t and ask any relevant authorities before doing so.

Smoking and Vaping are different

Smoking is a practice in which a substance is burned and the resulting smoke breathed in to be tasted and absorbed into the bloodstream.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking

Electronic Cigaretts

An electronic cigarette or e-cigarette is a handheld electronic device that creates an aerosol by heating a liquid. The user then inhales the aerosol. Using e-cigarettes is sometimes called vaping. The liquid in the e-cigarette, called e-liquid, is usually made of nicotine, propylene glycol, glycerine, and flavorings. Not all e-liquids contain nicotine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cigarette

shredder1 said:

I`m sorry to hear about your asthma, a terrible illness, I`m curious though, how are you effected by diesel fumes at railway stations or steam specials?

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It's not a serious case, I just carry / use a pair of inhalers and my life is totally normal.

Good question tho - diesel fumes have little or no effect, it's more of a smell really! Steam is water so not a problem either, although I find sulphurous smoke can make me rather wheezy. If I told you that earlier in life I was a qualified member of footplate crew on a well-known preserved railway, this indicates how little trouble it caused. Althouch saying that I hated emptying smoke boxes without the blower fully open (I'd rather be deaf than asphyxiated!) and managed to avoid ever having to go inside a firebox, not a pleasant experience if the engine is even slightly warm.

I think the problem with tobacco smoke is how concentrated and dirty it is when I accidentally breathe it in. Strange that coal and woodsmoke doesn't cause me much of a problem although perhaps that's why footplatemen don't die of lung cancer in their droves but tobacco smokers sadly do!

Wilts Wanderer said:

It's not a serious case, I just carry / use a pair of inhalers and my life is totally normal.

Good question tho - diesel fumes have little or no effect, it's more of a smell really! Steam is water so not a problem either, although I find sulphurous smoke can make me rather wheezy. If I told you that earlier in life I was a qualified member of footplate crew on a well-known preserved railway, this indicates how little trouble it caused. Although saying that I hated emptying smoke boxes without the blower fully open (I'd rather be deaf than asphyxiated!) and managed to avoid ever having to go inside a firebox, not a pleasant experience if the engine is even slightly warm.

I think the problem with tobacco smoke is how concentrated and dirty it is when I accidentally breathe it in. Strange that coal and woodsmoke doesn't cause me much of a problem although perhaps that's why footplatemen don't die of lung cancer in their droves but tobacco smokers sadly do!

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Yes indeed, my mother was a suffer from asthma, quite badly at times and she appeared to be affected by many air transmitted pollutants back in the days of heavy industry and ignorance, these days vehicle fuels are a lot cleaner, but cigarettes contain many, basically poisons. I think we all smoked in the 50`s and 60`s and it was socially more accepted in those unenlightened years, these days however we are more aware of the dangers. I stopped over 30 years ago thank goodness, it does however surprise me to see the younger generation still smoking, in this more enlightened age.

jcollins said:

Worth remembering coaches, buses, planes and ferries are all smoke free so a smoker is not going to choose one of those over the railways because of the railways being smoke free.

I briefly visited Kotor in Montenegro the other week and was informed there were public toilets on the first floor of a (very modern) shopping centre so I went in the shopping centre for the sole purpose of using the toilets and walked past the food outlets on the way and it was interesting to note not only don't they have any form of smoking ban but it also seemed like non-smokers are the minority.

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Noticed that in Serbia too , can smoke freely on trains when i was there ,might of changed .

Wasnt the caley sleeper the last place to smoke on a train , before that GNER ! Who was before GNER ?

shredder1 said:

Smoking and Vaping are different

Smoking is a practice in which a substance is burned and the resulting smoke breathed in to be tasted and absorbed into the bloodstream.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoking

Electronic Cigaretts

An electronic cigarette or e-cigarette is a handheld electronic device that creates an aerosol by heating a liquid. The user then inhales the aerosol. Using e-cigarettes is sometimes called vaping. The liquid in the e-cigarette, called e-liquid, is usually made of nicotine, propylene glycol, glycerine, and flavorings. Not all e-liquids contain nicotine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_cigarette

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I'm sure everyone will agree that vaping is quite different to smoking, but for the purpose of this debate, 'No Smoking' signs appear to automatically include 'No Vaping' too.

route101 said:

Noticed that in Serbia too , can smoke freely on trains when i was there ,might of changed .

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I didnt actually notice it on the trains when we did Serbia last year, nor in Montenegro, but we certainly saw smokers everywhere else.

route101 said:

Wasnt the caley sleeper the last place to smoke on a train , before that GNER ! Who was before GNER ?

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An outfit called British Rail

Robertj21a said:

I'm sure everyone will agree that vaping is quite different to smoking, but for the purpose of this debate, 'No Smoking' signs appear to automatically include 'No Vaping' too.

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Not absolutely everywhere. There are certainly pubs that permit vaping but display the legally required no-smoking signs.

Bletchleyite said:

Not absolutely everywhere. There are certainly pubs that permit vaping but display the legally required no-smoking signs.

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But my comments earlier were related to buses, not pubs.

Regarding vaping there are no specific laws on banning them them from being used in public building but most places treat vaping the same as tobacco smoking and just have an outright ban. I know for example you can't walk round Tesco vaping.

Although the complete ban came into place in 2007 before that its important to remember from the 1980s until then it was for most places except pubs by default that you expected that you couldn't smoke unless told otherwise. I know BHS Cafe, Wimpy and a couple of other places had a smoking area right up until July 1st 2007.

I know GNER when they brought in the Project Mallard one of the selling points they had over Virgin Trains was that they allowed passengers to smoke. Given the looming ban in Scotland and as a response to passenger feedback GNER banned smoking in 2005.

route101 said:

Wasnt the caley sleeper the last place to smoke on a train , before that GNER ! Who was before GNER ?

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South West Trains on longer distance stock (eg slam door stock, 159s and 442s) were the last operator other than GNER to allow smoking, right up to 2004. Other parts of the railway had started to ban it from the early 1990s - eg the NSE Turbo fleet was 100% non-smoking from its introduction in the early 1990s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/3737527.stm

In contrast, smoking on the South Central division had been banned from 1 January 1993 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...nnot-rule-on-railway-smoking-ban-1328340.html

A someone who has grown up with smokers in the household (although I would never touch them myself), the smell of cigarette smoke doesn't really bother me, but some of the aromas put out by the electronic devices I do find putrid!

JonathanH said:

South West Trains on longer distance stock (eg slam door stock, 159s and 442s) were the last operator other than GNER to allow smoking, right up to 2004. Other parts of the railway had started to ban it from the early 1990s - eg the NSE Turbo fleet was 100% non-smoking from its introduction in the early 1990s.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/3737527.stm

In contrast, smoking on the South Central division had been banned from 1 January 1993 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...nnot-rule-on-railway-smoking-ban-1328340.html

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I think South West Trains was the last other than GNER and the Caledonian Sleeper.

With other operators I think it was First Great Western (2000), Virgin Trains (2001), Midland Mainline (2003), Scotrail (1995 but local Strathclyde 1989), Reginoal Railways and Network South East (1990-1993), Northern Ireland Railways (1997), Wales and West (1998), Eurostar (2001).

I'm not sure about buses but on Faresaver the other week a bunch of chavs were vaping at the back until the driver booted the lot off in the middle of nowhere

Bletchleyite said:

I do agree with your view that it should be seen the same as smoking in terms of where it is permitted and where not (simply because both habits are equally antisocial in terms of their effects on the comfort of others), but it is not presently understood to be anywhere near as unhealthy as smoking, hence its being promoted as a sensible alternative to cigarettes for those who find quitting fully too difficult.

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I want suggesting that it was bad in health terms (or at least currently understood to be). I may not have been clear in my wording but what I was saying was that:

Although vaping isn't as bad for your health as smoking (there are discussions about whether people who Vape are more prone to colds and other minor illnesses) as well as clearly help a lot of people from smoking cigarettes (with the benefits that can bring) and in other ways it can be seen as less bad than smoking...

LiftFan said:

I'm not sure about buses but on Faresaver the other week a bunch of chavs were vaping at the back until the driver booted the lot off in the middle of nowhere

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More fool them. Either check or only risk it when the risk associated with being kicked off the bus is minor.

Not that they should be doing it, just they didn't think through what would happen if they were caught (personally I think that is funny and my evil sides wishes that it was the last bus of the day!).