Should the Forum offer help to people who have evaded their fares?

Deepgreen · 8 Jun 2017

Mod Note: Split from this thread.

At the risk of appearing callous, I've said before that I don't think this forum should offer any advice or assistance to those who are, by their own admission or other evidence, fare evaders, and reserve our efforts for genuine errors or confusion.

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najaB · 8 Jun 2017

Deepgreen said:
At the risk of appearing callous, I've said before that I don't think this forum should offer any advice or assistance to those who are, by their own admission or other evidence, fare evaders, and reserve our efforts for genuine errors or confusion.

I've got time for people who recognise and admit that they have done wrong. I don't have time for those who try to put the blame somewhere else.

Tetchytyke · 8 Jun 2017

Deepgreen said:
I don't think this forum should offer any advice or assistance to those who are, by their own admission...fare evaders

I disagree, because it takes guts to own up to something and take responsibility for it. If someone's able to admit something like that, then I see no issue with helping them mitigate the situation.

I have much more of a problem with people who persist in blaming everyone and anyone else for their predicament, rather than taking ownership of their own error of judgment.

sheff1 · 8 Jun 2017

Deepgreen said:
At the risk of appearing callous, I've said before that I don't think this forum should offer any advice or assistance to those who are, by their own admission or other evidence, fare evaders, and reserve our efforts for genuine errors or confusion.

And as was said before if you, or anyone else, does not wish to help any individual poster then just keep clear of that thread. Everyone who provides advice on here does so voluntarily as often or as infrequently as they wish.

The only way providing advice in such cases would be inappropriate is if the moderators/administrators change their policy which currently reads:

The purpose of the Disputes and Prosecutions forum is to provide advice for anyone who has encountered difficulties during or after their rail journey.

Regardless of whether the person in question admits their guilt, or believes that they are completely innocent, everyone who seeks help is entitled to receive advice......

Greenback · 8 Jun 2017

sheff1 said:
And as was said before if you, or anyone else, does not wish to help any individual poster then just keep clear of that thread. Everyone who provides advice on here does so voluntarily as often or as infrequently as they wish.

That just about sums up my view. It should be left to individuals to decide for themselves. I don't think that the forum should decide who is worthy of getitng help and advice and who isn't. Some cases are far less clear cut than others, and in my view it has to be up to us to decide for oruelves whether we want to contribute or not to each thread.

Harlesden · 8 Jun 2017

Blood boils on reading posts from people arriving at their destination with no ticket and deliberately giving an incorrect starting point when challenged, then coming on here talking about their "mistake". A mistake is something unintentional. Giving false information to an authorized official in this context is attempted fraud in my book.
No sympathy with either fare avoiders or fare evaders.

yorkie · 8 Jun 2017

Deepgreen said:
At the risk of appearing callous, I've said before that I don't think this forum should offer any advice or assistance to those who are, by their own admission or other evidence, fare evaders, and reserve our efforts for genuine errors or confusion.

We are not going to ban people from receiving assistance in such cases. It is in the interests of the train companies that settlements are reached. The courts are busy enough with other cases as it is.

fisher72 said:
Blood boils on reading posts from people arriving at their destination with no ticket and deliberately giving an incorrect starting point when challenged, then coming on here talking about their "mistake". A mistake is something unintentional. Giving false information to an authorized official in this context is attempted fraud in my book.
No sympathy with either fare avoiders or fare evaders.

If you don't like reading such threads, don't click on them.

TheEdge · 8 Jun 2017

It does seem there are a lot of people who come to the forums having made "a stupid mistake"

I however get the feeling a lot of people have only made a stupid mistake because they were caught making that mistake, and that the mistake may not have been as much of a mistake as the "I'm so sorry" opening post tries to make out. I wonder how many times these people have made that same "stupid mistake" but were not so embarrassed when it saved them a few quid.

Like its quite amazing how many people make the same "stupid mistake" of arriving late at a station, walking past a ticket machine or office, boarding a train to buy of the guard, the guard never came through, getting to a barriered station than forgetting where they got on and picking a station much closer than their true origin. That mistake is normally because they were stressed, hungry or confused due to the rude, aggressive or abrupt RPI and also they are not sleeping because they are moving the US/becoming a doctor or lawyer.

I'm fairly confident I could find dozens of threads with most if not all of those components to their opening post. Funny that...

Blindtraveler · 8 Jun 2017

I contribute very little to the disputes section although have had help myself in the past and will give it in return if I feel I have something to offer. Like others I do get rather frustrated when foalk walk streight past working machines and open booking offices and then seam surprised and angry when a big burley security thug who just happens to be playing RPI today grabs them and starts the process, even more so as some of us have to scrimp, save and borrow to make our railway journeys sometimes.

Their is understandably a feeling amongst some that they woant get caught as its not unknown to go for miles without any form check and sometimes Iv wondered why I bothered buying a ticket but its always nice to know I have it there tucked away safely ready for use.

The flip side of this that there are cases where someone has made a genuine mistake or there is a perfectly reasonable reason why they are ticketless and they get a rough deal and its a pleasure to help such individuals as after all we are all on here coz we like railways or some other transport and want others to share our love and enjoyment of it and to use it safely, securly and in a way that helps them and keeps them free from hassle.

Forum policy just now is fine IMO.

Tetchytyke · 8 Jun 2017

TheEdge said:
It does seem there are a lot of people who come to the forums having made "a stupid mistake".

Indeed in many cases the biggest mistake they made was getting caught.

But caught they were. I have no issue with helping people mitigate their situation, because that is all it is at that stage: mitigation. The advice in most of these cases is "be nice, be apologetic, expect to cough up". What is so bad about that? It's not like we're offering magic bullets to get them off.

And, let's face it, the real crooks will have vaulted the barriers and run off down the road whilst we've been wibbling about this.

Tim R-T-C · 8 Jun 2017

Well the forum never gives people the "loophole" they are looking for, because there generally are not any.

Often the advice is to admit the fault, offer a settlement or if taken to court and planning to challenge, to take a lawyer.

Like being the counsel for someone accused of a crime, the fine folk of this forum are not trying to "get people off", but to ensure that they know what to expect and how not to mess up and get in more trouble.

I hope that those people who have made "silly mistakes" (probably on many occasions, but this is the first time they got pulled up on it) will take heed of the sensible advice given here and understand that they are committing what could lead to career threatening prosecution.

Harlesden · 8 Jun 2017

yorkie said:
If you don't like reading such threads, don't click on them.

Unexpected hostility. Not always obvious what a thread is about until you click on it. The first post asked what people thought and I was offering an opinion. No need for the sharp tone. Jeez.

fowler9 · 8 Jun 2017

I personally think that if it makes even a few people who ask for advice realise that it is actually not that different from shop lifting or what have you then it is a good thing. Plus the advice I have seen on here has pretty much always been to own up, apologise and cough up unless there has been an obvious reason why someone has perhaps made an innocent mistake or had steps against them taken that shouldn't have been.

najaB · 8 Jun 2017

fisher72 said:
Unexpected hostility. Not always obvious what a thread is about until you click on it.

To be fair, you're the one who spoke of blood boiling. If it bothers you that much then perhaps avoiding the sub-forum entirely isn't such a bad suggestion for the sake of your peace of mind.

sheff1 · 8 Jun 2017

fisher72 said:
Unexpected hostility. Not always obvious what a thread is about until you click on it. The first post asked what people thought and I was offering an opinion. No need for the sharp tone. Jeez.

You said you had no sympathy for fare avoiders (as well as evaders). As a raison d'être of this section of forum is to help people avoid paying the often shamefully high fares requested for some journeys (by suggesting splits, loopholes etc), it is hardly surprising that you received a less than warm response.

cjmillsnun · 8 Jun 2017

najaB said:
I've got time for people who recognise and admit that they have done wrong. I don't have time for those who try to put the blame somewhere else.

I would amend this to:- I have time for people who recognise and admit they did wrong and show remorse. I don't have time for those that show no remorse or try to put the blame elsewhere.

I'll happily advise those I have time for to try and get the best result for them (and in most cases the TOC). For the others TBH I am not even going to reply anymore but lurk with popcorn.

najaB · 8 Jun 2017

cjmillsnun said:
I would amend this to:- I have time for people who recognise and admit they did wrong and show remorse. I don't have time for those that show no remorse or try to put the blame elsewhere.

Indeed. A level of remorse - which isn't the same thing as just being worried about the impact on their own lives - will get people a lot more sympathy.

fowler9 · 8 Jun 2017

najaB said:
Indeed. A level of remorse - which isn't the same thing as just being worried about the impact on their own lives - will get people a lot more sympathy.

Surely a level of remorse includes the realisation of the impact it will have on your life. You would struggle to prove that Saul on the road to Damascus didn't suddenly just worry out of self interest.

dakta · 8 Jun 2017

najaB said:
To be fair, you're the one who spoke of blood boiling. If it bothers you that much then perhaps avoiding the sub-forum entirely isn't such a bad suggestion for the sake of your peace of mind.

I quite enjoy reading this section, though examples do make my blood boil. It doesn't detract from the experience, I also like reading the local rag and court archives and that's no different. I'd quite happily say some things on here boil my blood but for me at least its just a reaction to a story you read, to suggest not to read the forum on the basis of it is probably taking it a bit too seriously

I don't get involved as I don't really have much to say but it is an interesting read whatever temperature the blood is, or what scorn or sympathy you might find yourself feeling in a particular instance.

Every now and then there's a story of someone who genuinely hasn't tried to play the system and in those times its nice to see people offering useful help

najaB · 9 Jun 2017

fowler9 said:
Surely a level of remorse includes the realisation of the impact it will have on your life. You would struggle to prove that Saul on the road to Damascus didn't suddenly just worry out of self interest.

The key word was 'just'. Sometimes you see people who aren't remorseful, they have the attitude of having done nothing wrong and are only worried about the impact it will have on their lives with no sign of any guilt about their actions.

JN114 · 9 Jun 2017

Personally speaking; I'm in the camp that finds it morally questionable to be assisting people who have sometimes gone out of their way to avoid paying and then come grovelling on here for advice on how to mitigate any punishment.

My other gripe is the inane waffle that always accompanies each thread - the obligatory pedant advising the poster that only courts can impose fines; or pages of minutiae over specific details of the incident when in practice the advice isn't any different whether it's a RORA offence or Byelaw offence. I think the community could do well out of a Keep it Simple Approach - sometimes it reaches 4 or 5 pages of bickering over some insignificant details - 4 or 5 pages that a user, not necessarily familiar with Railway ticketing etc has to wade through decipher and respond to.

All that said it does on occasion make for entertaining reading, so whatever my hang ups and distastes Ill still read and contribute where I feel necessary.

Clip · 9 Jun 2017

Tim R-T-C said:
Well the forum never gives people the "loophole" they are looking for, because there generally are not any.

.

Not quite true. There are a plethora of threads where certain posters do indeed try to inject doubt and uncertainty into the thread and many with 'What if' scenarios which dont help at all but yet they carry on doing so trying to create an 'out' for the poster.

Thats what Deepgreen was getting at I think and I agree

Puffing Devil · 9 Jun 2017

JN114 said:
My other gripe is the inane waffle that always accompanies each thread - the obligatory pedant advising the poster that only courts can impose fines; or pages of minutiae over specific details of the incident when in practice the advice isn't any different whether it's a RORA offence or Byelaw offence. I think the community could do well out of a Keep it Simple Approach - sometimes it reaches 4 or 5 pages of bickering over some insignificant details - 4 or 5 pages that a user, not necessarily familiar with Railway ticketing etc has to wade through decipher and respond to.

This. All. Day. Long.

najaB · 9 Jun 2017

JN114 said:
...the obligatory pedant advising the poster that only courts can impose fines...

It may seem pedantic, but it is an important distinction: settlements can be negotiated, fines cannot.

Greenback · 9 Jun 2017

fisher72 said:
Unexpected hostility. Not always obvious what a thread is about until you click on it. The first post asked what people thought and I was offering an opinion. No need for the sharp tone. Jeez.

I don't see a sharp tone. I do agree that you can't always tell what will be ina thread from the title. My advice is if you come across somethign that makes your blood boil, walk away from the thread at that point in time.

fowler9 said:
I personally think that if it makes even a few people who ask for advice realise that it is actually not that different from shop lifting or what have you then it is a good thing. Plus the advice I have seen on here has pretty much always been to own up, apologise and cough up unless there has been an obvious reason why someone has perhaps made an innocent mistake or had steps against them taken that shouldn't have been.

Agreed. One of the beenfits of coming here for help is that it usually reinforces how serious fare evasion can be when someone is caught. For the hard core, serial evaders, nothing is ever going to change them, but when someone htinks that not buying a ticket is a trivial matter, and they will be able to talk their way out of it, it can be a sobering experience for them to come here and realise that the reaily is a bit different.

najaB said:
The key word was 'just'. Sometimes you see people who aren't remorseful, they have the attitude of having done nothing wrong and are only worried about the impact it will have on their lives with no sign of any guilt about their actions.

This is why I'm relatively happy with the fact that a criminal record can enter the equation. I know that some are against it, but as far as I'm concenred it's that which works as a deterrent. As I mentioned, one of the positives here is that people can quickly realise that things are more serious than they previously thought. Even if they don't get convicte dof anything, ensuring that even one or two people don't do the same thing ever again because of the potential effect it will have on their lives or careers, must surely be a good thing.

Greenback · 9 Jun 2017

Clip said:
Not quite true. There are a plethora of threads where certain posters do indeed try to inject doubt and uncertainty into the thread and many with 'What if' scenarios which dont help at all but yet they carry on doing so trying to create an 'out' for the poster.

Thats what Deepgreen was getting at I think and I agree

There's merit in this comment. Some threads that I;ve read have resulted in, frnakly, some pretty desperate attempts to try and find a way to argue that the legislation does not or should not apply to the incident that took place.

The best place to put such arguments to bed is in the thread, as I'm no fan of censorship, but it does get a bit tedious at times to see the same old twists, analogies and arguments being used when they don' seem relevant or applicable.

yorkie · 9 Jun 2017

najaB said:
It may seem pedantic, but it is an important distinction: settlements can be negotiated, fines cannot.

I'm not sure if JN114 is criticising posts like this post or this post for explaining the distinction; if so then I will strongly disagree, as such posts clarify misunderstandings and offer practical advice that is useful, most importantly to the passenger and the rail industry (it is a waste of resources for both parties otherwise!) and anyone who either searches for threads using a search engine or happens to see the title on here, thinks it may be interesting and clicks on it to read more.

However if not, and the criticism is that it's unhelpful to make a basic post simply stating "only courts can impose fines" without any useful explanation, then I would agree with that, as it's not particularly helpful.

Helping someone does not mean giving them false hope that they have a case to appeal or contest if clearly they do not have a case.

If anyone finds the D&P section frustrating to read, I can understand that. Please do get in touch; we can hide it from your account, so that you can continue enjoying the rest of the site.

cuccir · 9 Jun 2017

As someone who often offers advice, I'd add a few more points:

*If you've no experience in dealing with legal matters, it can be very confusing as to what happens next. Our legal system is fairer for everyone if people involved in it understand it. If we can offer a little help in negotiating that, then it's a good thing

* We do get several cases a year where TOCs are breaking the law, or prosecuting people incorrectly. Advising those who are guilty is a necessary by-product of helping support people in cases where a large multinational company is harassing an innocent individual

*As noted, if we ease people's routes to out of court settlements, that saves tax-payers' money in the courts, helps TOCs better recoup their costs, and gives miscreants another chance.

I don't think we should be looking to do things to try and let people find loopholes. If someone is clearly guilty, we should leave our advice to a simple statement of facts as to how to respond to correspondence, but not go beyond this.

SS4 · 9 Jun 2017

Isn't the best way to tell if someone is simply looking for a get out of jail free card simply to check how many posts they have in the thread? From my limited experience these are the ones where the OP simply doesn't bother coming back after not hearing what they wanted to hear.

yorkie said:
If anyone finds the D&P section frustrating to read, I can understand that. Please do get in touch; we can hide it from your account, so that you can continue enjoying the rest of the site.

Does that also hide posts in that forum from the new posts page?

185 · 9 Jun 2017

I make the assumption this thread refers specifically to those who either i) fare dodge and admit their guilt and ii) fare dodge and live in denial. Repetitive as it is, we do generally offer them advice which is, admit their guilt and offer to settle.

That said, there are always occasions where perhaps the operator may be at fault - booking offices shut, TVMs taking card only or just straightforward errors.

In my opinion, we should consider all who come to this section of the thread in the interest of fairness towards those who may have a perfectly valid and honest reason for being unable to show a ticket when stopped, errors which do happen at all almost operators.

Should the Forum offer help to people who have evaded their fares?

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