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New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR
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They are running faster services from 7am from Guildford towards Portsmouth. Currently fast services don't start until 8.04. They obviously feel there is a market for it to start earlier.
Not checked evening yet to see if any fast services running from Portsmouth.
HarleyDavidson
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That's only to placate the local college & well known public school at Godalming.
Searle
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That's because hardly any people do travel from Guildford to Woking in the morning. Whilst there are 12 coach trains, rammed to Waterloo, possibly 10 or 20 tops get off at Woking.
HarleyDavidson
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You really don't know what you're talking about do you. Absolute twaddle I'm afraid.
Searle
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Absolute twaddle??? 
The fact remains that the amount of people travelling to Waterloo is far far higher than the amount going anywhere else, and this is reflected in the fact that Woking gets less favourable paths
The fact remains that the amount of people travelling to Waterloo is far far higher than the amount going anywhere else, and this is reflected in the fact that Woking gets less favourable paths
It seems to me that these timetables are just about people who want to go to London Waterloo. If your train happens to stops somewhere other than Waterloo that's a lucky bonus for you. If you wish to change trains on route, you can do so but don't expect us to provide a service that helps you.
Yiu will just have to put up with being a loser, as all the winners head off to Waterloo.
Obviously this doesn't apply to lines and services which don't go to Waterloo.
It would be useful to know the empty coaching stock movements, to see if anything else might be possible.
Currently there is a 19.23 Waterloo fast to Surbtion which carries on to Hampton Court. It use to run ECS to Hampton Court. It seems in the new timetable as if it terminates at Surbiton.
Personally I think it might be nice if it could run to Woking but they only seem to want to run fast or semi fast trains to Woking off peak.
If they don't see the need for them in the peak, why the need for four of them off peak?
Currently there is a 19.23 Waterloo fast to Surbtion which carries on to Hampton Court. It use to run ECS to Hampton Court. It seems in the new timetable as if it terminates at Surbiton.
Personally I think it might be nice if it could run to Woking but they only seem to want to run fast or semi fast trains to Woking off peak.
If they don't see the need for them in the peak, why the need for four of them off peak?
Yes, basically.
Would it? I have suggested time and again empty stock that could run in passenger service (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60517/2017/10/08/advanced this is a particularly significant example). There is usually a reason not to.
Certainly agree with everything you raise but just to note that you should never pay £24.60 to get from Woking to Waterloo as there are "better" options for returns in both peak and off peak which obviously I won't be mentioning in this open forum (particularly when travelling off peak).
Whilst that is certainly true going against the main London flows (i.e. towards Guildford in the morning and towards Woking in the evening) the evidence isn't quite so strong for the opposite direction.
As an example, you just need to see how busy platform 5 at Woking is in the morning, yet in the evening it is noticeably quieter (although still a fair few people, but not nearly as busy as the morning).
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
Is it not the case that - except on Sundays and some early morning and late evening trains on other days - just about everything starts from below Epsom anyway?
I can only think of two or three morning peak extras that start at Epsom at the moment and having tried using them from Epsom on occasion I suspect the reason they get so full is that a lot of people at Epsom hold back to board them rather than use the semi fast ( which i accept is no use to you at Stoneleigh! ) simply because they start at Epsom.
Don't forget we are supposed to be getting an increase from 8 to 10 cars in the December timetable, which should make a difference - at least at the country end of the trains...
fairysdad
Member
I've just had a quick look, and, from Ewell West (my station) the 0621, 0725, 0755, and 0825 services all start at Epsom. So, although it is, as you say, only two or three peaks, it is actually half the service (from a Ewell commuter anyway!) that are Epsom starters during the morning peak. I used to catch the 0807 service when working a 9-5 shift, until I realised that if I woke myself up a bit earlier I could catch the 0755 and be more likely to get a seat! (That said, I usually aim for the country end of the station where it's usually quieter regardless of which train I catch.)
Outside of the peak times, it's usually much quieter on that line so trains starting from beyond Epsom aren't as packed as they are in the peak (I guess that's why it is the peak!). But to have *no* trains starting at Epsom during peak will be a bit annoying.
(What would be nice would be some semi-fast Epsom-bound services that go non-stop between Waterloo and Wimbledon, then all stops to Epsom!)
randompixel
Member
The proposed timetables need much better explanation if they want the public to comment on them. I know people confused and angry thinking they're planning to cut the number of trains in morning peak from Brookwood down to 2 an hour with everything else terminating at Woking (due to the spreadsheet having the e's and f's and multiple columns) starting in December this year. I think they'll get a lot of feedback on the timetable that'll be useless because people don't understand the spreadsheet.
This surely can't be the case and I've made my best explanation, but there is no way of pointing to evidence to the contrary outside of capacity and "it'd be stupid for them to do" based-assumptions. (In fact I think it looks like _more_ trains will stop at Brookwood -> Waterloo between 6 and 8 in the morning? 0611, 0616, 0641, 0646, 0650, 0703, 0711, 0716, 0720, 0733, 0741, 0746, 0750)
This surely can't be the case and I've made my best explanation, but there is no way of pointing to evidence to the contrary outside of capacity and "it'd be stupid for them to do" based-assumptions. (In fact I think it looks like _more_ trains will stop at Brookwood -> Waterloo between 6 and 8 in the morning? 0611, 0616, 0641, 0646, 0650, 0703, 0711, 0716, 0720, 0733, 0741, 0746, 0750)
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As a related aside (and with the caveat of speaking as someone with only occasional visits to the area) I was wondering whether SWR could run the Dorking trains fast, not north of Wimbledon (CJ and perhaps Vauxhall are too important so retain those stops) then fast Wimbledon to Epsom, then Leatherhead and Dorking only (one per hour) or all stations to Dorking (the other). Dorking does seem to have a disproportionately slow service to London for its size.. the Victoria trains are limited stop but the route from Epsom to Victoria via Sutton seems to be slower than Waterloo to Wimbledon - suggesting the Waterloo route ought to be the 'prime' one.
Not sure if any timetable would permit such paths for fast trains though. Seems to be a general problem with towns around 25 miles or so out of London in the SWR area that paths constrain them to stop almost everywhere; Windsor's another one, I guess a limited stop all to Staines then Feltham/Twickenham/Richmond/Clapham pattern like the Readings can't be accommodated.
Feathers44
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But you then have the problem of halving the train service for those of us living between Wimbledon and Epsom which is a fully built up residential area.
I think these options become more viable once/if Crossrail 2 ever happens although there will then be more trains between Epsom and Wimbledon to weave between.
I think these options become more viable once/if Crossrail 2 ever happens although there will then be more trains between Epsom and Wimbledon to weave between.
Fair point! I think the key to my concern is that for a passenger at Stoneleigh, if I've interpreted the proposed timetable correctly, there will be four trains per hour in the morning peak which all go through either:
Dorking, Box Hill, Leatherhead, Ashtead, Epsom and Ewell West; or
Guildford, London Road, Clandon, Horsley, Effingham, Bookham, Leatherhead, Ashtead, Epsom and Ewell West
...before getting to Stoneleigh. I wouldn't much fancy my chances of fighting my way onto any of those, even with ten coaches (though I myself live in Epsom so hopefully less of a problem for me). Obviously being unable to board a train is normal for people living closer to London, but those people get a higher frequency of service so will shuffle more quickly to the front of the queue.
I cheerfully accept that it's entirely possible that I'm wrong and overly pessimistic, but if I lived in Stoneleigh I'd be wondering how far in the wrong direction I might have to travel to reliably board.
HarleyDavidson
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I don't know why they bother with the semi fast, when the following trains regularly get altered to run fast from Raynes Park to Waterloo and over take the semi fast. 
What I was more thinking of was increasing the service so that no station lost any trains, but the 'slows' only went as far as Epsom while the Dorkings went through fast, or at least limited-stop. A pattern like (say) 00 (fast), 03, 18, 30 (fast), 33, 48 out of Wimbledon. Don't know if this would actually work in practice though.
There aren't really any spare paths out of Waterloo though. The Epsom Line does get 6tph in the peak but if you were to run them Off Peak too you would be running trains on the Slow Lines pretty much to its maximum capacity all day, which is asking for trouble. Delays would very quickly build up, as they currently do in the peak.
HarleyDavidson
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Yup. A peak timetable that doesn't work. It needs thinning out a bit for it to perform well/reliably.
TBQH the current timetable is just as much a mess, as the proposed ones.
TBQH the current timetable is just as much a mess, as the proposed ones.
Peter Mugridge
Veteran Member
When Crossrail 2 gets built - assuming it does - there will be 6tph from Epsom towards Wimbledon, two of which will be to Waterloo from below Epsom and probably running fast from Epsom to Wimbledon and the other four all stations into Crossrail 2. That is only possible then because, as TEW points out, there is no room between Wimbledon and Waterloo to run this frequency at present.
Goldfish62
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When/if it gets built. TfL are proposing delaying completion until 2044. Probably therefore not in my lifetime.
Goldfish62
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More timetable observations:
Chertsey to Isleworth: current - 38 min, O changes; proposed - 68 min, 3 changes
Isleworth to Chertsey: current - 31 min, 0 changes; proposed - 46 min, 3 changes
Chertsey to Isleworth: current - 38 min, O changes; proposed - 68 min, 3 changes
Isleworth to Chertsey: current - 31 min, 0 changes; proposed - 46 min, 3 changes
London - Winchester goes from:
05 ~1h
09 ~1h09
20 ~1h05 changing at Basingstoke
35 ~1h
39 ~1h09
(50 ~1h05 changing at Basingstoke, every 2 hours)
to:
12 ~1h
33 ~1h15
42 ~1h
Admittedly they say the 12 and 42 will be 10 cars all day. But that's a substantial reduction in frequency and choice - I realise that it's important to have trains fully formed going into Waterloo, but 5.5 to3 2 tph is surely a tad extreme?
05 ~1h
09 ~1h09
20 ~1h05 changing at Basingstoke
35 ~1h
39 ~1h09
(50 ~1h05 changing at Basingstoke, every 2 hours)
to:
12 ~1h
42 ~1h
Admittedly they say the 12 and 42 will be 10 cars all day. But that's a substantial reduction in frequency and choice - I realise that it's important to have trains fully formed going into Waterloo, but 5.5 to
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You've missed the xx03 departure in the new timetable, which also takes ~1h15, so it's still 4tph direct. (The "e" and "f" symbols should be read as "continued in a later column" and "continued from an earlier column" respectively.) There may have to be consequential amendments to the XC paths that might well mean the connection off the xx25 to Exeter is maintained as well.
The more important change as far as Winchester is concerned, I think, is that the xx03 and xx33 departures are overtaken (between Woking and Basingstoke) by the xx12 and xx42 departures respectively. So passengers for, e.g., Fareham will now be directed by journey planners to take the xx12 to Basingstoke/Winchester and change onto the xx03 departure, making the xx12 and xx42 even busier.
To be fair they do seem to have managed to time the xx42 departure consistently run to Winchester in 55 mins (just the one stop at Woking), which is definitely a slight speed improvement.
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