TfL Bus Maps

DynamicSpirit · 10 Oct 2017

Does anyone know if London bus route maps are still available online anywhere? I'm not interested in the spider maps - I want maps that show geographically where the buses go.

TfL used to provide - if I recall correctly 5 different geographical maps, respectively covering NE London, NW London, SE London, SW London, and central London - both in print form, and online. Those are really what I'm looking for, but now as far as I can see, the TfL bus maps page only links to the spider maps.

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Polarbear · 10 Oct 2017

I'd also be interested to know if these are available? I certainly couldn't find them when I had a trip around the outer reaches of the area a few weeks back.

alex397 · 10 Oct 2017

TfL have now stopped producing them (earlier this year I believe), so they will no longer be available to pick up anywhere. They were still available online until recently, but a quick look now shows they are no longer there (they hadn't been updated for ages anyway). Just individual spider maps.

Hard to believe one of the world's richest cities can't produce public transport maps anymore. I find information easier to find when travelling to places like Hamburg or Berlin, and places in Eastern Europe.

I like to see the network of bus routes from a geographical perspective, not having to look at loads of different timetables and maps to work out where i'm going. TfL journey planner is good, but it can sometimes be difficult to get enough reception when out and about to look on a smartphone. Also, I find using my smartphone difficult and more hassle compared to just looking at a paper map.

I can understand that less people are possibly using the maps, because of the internet, but what about people who don't use the internet? Or people who would rather not look at the small screen of their phone?

Busaholic · 10 Oct 2017

Someone by the name of Mike Harris produces an all-London bus map in the style of London Transport's through the ages: after a hiatus, he has recently produced an up-to-date one dated July 2017. There is a separate one for night bus routes,too. I believe they cost £2 and £4 respectively plus postage. I don't have a website address, but I'm sure someone can provide it.

essexjohn · 10 Oct 2017

Mike Harris bus maps http://busmap.co.uk/

Statto · 10 Oct 2017

Yep the Mike Harris Greater London Bus Map, half the price for a digital download version of the paper map, other than online, only available from either Ian Allan's London bookshop or London Transport Museum, Covent Garden.

Andyh82 · 10 Oct 2017

Most other areas that have dropped paper maps still maintain them online, often updated at a much greater frequency than in the past.

You'd think London of all places would at least be able to do that, in fact you'd expect them to still be able to produce printed maps.

Statto · 10 Oct 2017

Andyh82 said:
Most other areas that have dropped paper maps still maintain them online, often updated at a much greater frequency than in the past.

You'd think London of all places would at least be able to do that, in fact you'd expect them to still be able to produce printed maps.

Indeed TGFM seem to have stopped publishing paper maps, however they still publish maps online.

Antman · 10 Oct 2017

I've got the Mike Harris ones and they are very good, much better than the rubbish TfL produce. They are available from the Ian Allen bookshop at Waterloo.

Statto · 10 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
I've got the Mike Harris ones and they are very good, much better than the rubbish TfL produce. They are available from the Ian Allen bookshop at Waterloo.

Agreed, i've brought the download version & they're brilliant, they have School non TFL & Greenline routes

Polarbear · 10 Oct 2017

Thanks all for the information & links - map now ordered!

DynamicSpirit · 10 Oct 2017

alex397 said:
TfL have now stopped producing them (earlier this year I believe), so they will no longer be available to pick up anywhere. They were still available online until recently, but a quick look now shows they are no longer there (they hadn't been updated for ages anyway). Just individual spider maps.

Hard to believe one of the world's richest cities can't produce public transport maps anymore. I find information easier to find when travelling to places like Hamburg or Berlin, and places in Eastern Europe.

I like to see the network of bus routes from a geographical perspective, not having to look at loads of different timetables and maps to work out where i'm going. TfL journey planner is good, but it can sometimes be difficult to get enough reception when out and about to look on a smartphone. Also, I find using my smartphone difficult and more hassle compared to just looking at a paper map.

I can understand that less people are possibly using the maps, because of the internet, but what about people who don't use the internet? Or people who would rather not look at the small screen of their phone?

Whaat? What on Earth are TfL thinking of, not doing them? Yes you are absolutely right that those maps are useful for some people.

In my case, the reason I was looking for a geographical map is that I'm trying to figure out the options for a friend getting from Wood Green to an accessible station on the North London line heading towards Stratford (underground to Highbury and Islington is not an option because there are too many stairs if changing to the Overground there). That's the kind of planning that you just can't reasonably do either with a spider map, or with the online journey planner (which requires that you know your destination). You really need to be able to look at a 'real' map to see where the buses go. If there's no map available to plan that, that could well end up being one customer TfL loses to a taxi or something

I'm completely flabbergasted by TfL's decision there. To think you can run a complex bus network without providing maps of it???

Busaholic said:
Someone by the name of Mike Harris produces an all-London bus map in the style of London Transport's through the ages: after a hiatus, he has recently produced an up-to-date one dated July 2017. There is a separate one for night bus routes,too. I believe they cost £2 and £4 respectively plus postage. I don't have a website address, but I'm sure someone can provide it.

Thanks! Yes, I remember those. I have one that I bought at Euston station about 7 or 8 years ago. Excellent idea (although I suspect the purpose of those maps is perhaps more sentimental in nature, and personally I found the more recent TfL ones easier to read because of their larger scales). I guess buying a more up-to-date one of Mike's maps is what I'll have to do.

Busaholic · 10 Oct 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
Whaat? What on Earth are TfL thinking of, not doing them? Yes you are absolutely right that those maps are useful for some people.

In my case, the reason I was looking for a geographical map is that I'm trying to figure out the options for a friend getting from Wood Green to an accessible station on the North London line heading towards Stratford (underground to Highbury and Islington is not an option because there are too many stairs if changing to the Overground there). That's the kind of planning that you just can't reasonably do either with a spider map, or with the online journey planner (which requires that you know your destination). You really need to be able to look at a 'real' map to see where the buses go. If there's no map available to plan that, that could well end up being one customer TfL loses to a taxi or something

I'm completely flabbergasted by TfL's decision there. To think you can run a complex bus network without providing maps of it???

Thanks! Yes, I remember those. I have one that I bought at Euston station about 7 or 8 years ago. Excellent idea (although I suspect the purpose of those maps is perhaps more sentimental in nature, and personally I found the more recent TfL ones easier to read because of their larger scales). I guess buying a more up-to-date one of Mike's maps is what I'll have to do.

A lot of TfL's decisions on the bus side recently are causing consternation. I suspect Leon Daniels retiring within the next few weeks as Head of Surface Transport will only exacerbate the situation. The Transport Commissioner appears to lack any understanding of the problems facing buses and (more importantly) their passengers and, as has been stated on this forum in the recent past, there seems to be no strong advocate for the bus within the London Assembly members: Sadiq Khan seems to consider ' job done' with the overrated Hopper fare and freezing bus fares and buses are to be left to wither on the vine.

IanD · 10 Oct 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
Does anyone know if London bus route maps are still available online anywhere? I'm not interested in the spider maps - I want maps that show geographically where the buses go.

TfL used to provide - if I recall correctly 5 different geographical maps, respectively covering NE London, NW London, SE London, SW London, and central London - both in print form, and online. Those are really what I'm looking for, but now as far as I can see, the TfL bus maps page only links to the spider maps.

I noticed the London ones hadn't been updated for a while and then they disappeared from the site. Fortunately, I'd downloaded the latest versions.

DynamicSpirit · 11 Oct 2017

IanD - you're a hero!

Thanks for the maps. Downloaded them - they'll see good use (at least until TfL changes the bus routes).

IanD · 11 Oct 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
IanD - you're a hero!

Thanks for the maps. Downloaded them - they'll see good use (at least until TfL changes the bus routes).

Cheers, no problem. As I say, some of the routes have already changed so they are a bit out of date.

plcd1 · 11 Oct 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
Whaat? What on Earth are TfL thinking of, not doing them? Yes you are absolutely right that those maps are useful for some people.

In my case, the reason I was looking for a geographical map is that I'm trying to figure out the options for a friend getting from Wood Green to an accessible station on the North London line heading towards Stratford (underground to Highbury and Islington is not an option because there are too many stairs if changing to the Overground there). That's the kind of planning that you just can't reasonably do either with a spider map, or with the online journey planner (which requires that you know your destination). You really need to be able to look at a 'real' map to see where the buses go. If there's no map available to plan that, that could well end up being one customer TfL loses to a taxi or something

I'm completely flabbergasted by TfL's decision there. To think you can run a complex bus network without providing maps of it???

The decision on bus maps is down to cost. The contract with FWT was cancelled a few months ago and it seems printing anything is now deemed too expensive unless it is directly promoting something "whizzy". As an example of this stupidity a paper copy of the a "local bus guide" dropped through my letter box. The only problem is that the guide is for Barkingside featuring the "branded" routes that TfL are trialling. I live in a completely different borough and only one of the branded routes runs in my area. In no way does the guide represent what is my local bus network. How TfL can throw money away posting these guides to homes many miles away is beyond me. I suspect a lot of people will be completely non-plussed as to why a Barkingside guide has been delivered to them when they live miles away. One wonders how much money has been wasted on this that could have been used to keep quadrant bus maps alive even if only online.

I downloaded copies of the maps months ago anticipating their removal online. TfL denied in an answer to a Mayor's Question that the maps were to be withdrawn / ceasing production. Unfortunately this answer appears to have been a lie. They said "getting around" guides were some sort of replacement but no one has yet seen one of these guides and they appear to only have been produced for a few limited areas.

In short it's a great big mess and really should not have been allowed to happen.

plcd1 · 11 Oct 2017

Busaholic said:
A lot of TfL's decisions on the bus side recently are causing consternation. I suspect Leon Daniels retiring within the next few weeks as Head of Surface Transport will only exacerbate the situation. The Transport Commissioner appears to lack any understanding of the problems facing buses and (more importantly) their passengers and, as has been stated on this forum in the recent past, there seems to be no strong advocate for the bus within the London Assembly members: Sadiq Khan seems to consider ' job done' with the overrated Hopper fare and freezing bus fares and buses are to be left to wither on the vine.

Don't be surprised if you see the creation of a "Walking and Cycling" Directorate once Leon has gone. Many politicians have been pushing this for ages and Val Shawcross was certainly sympathetic when an Assembly Member. If the new directorate emerges expect buses to be pushed even further down the agenda than they already are. In terms of senior management understanding of buses I watched a recent Assembly webcast where TfL were dragged in to account for their budget. One senior TfL person stated that there had been £61m of bus contract savings this year and when challenged as to whether this had affected passengers through reduced services he said there had been no cuts. This is a blatant lie given routes have been cut, reorganised and frequencies cut across London week after week with many more reductions to come. There is also a corporate policy to axe 6m kms from the bus network this year to save £25m. Not sure how he was unaware of all this as a TfL Director.

Mojo · 11 Oct 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
In my case, the reason I was looking for a geographical map is that I'm trying to figure out the options for a friend getting from Wood Green to an accessible station on the North London line heading towards Stratford (underground to Highbury and Islington is not an option because there are too many stairs if changing to the Overground there). That's the kind of planning that you just can't reasonably do either with a spider map, or with the online journey planner (which requires that you know your destination). You really need to be able to look at a 'real' map to see where the buses go. If there's no map available to plan that, that could well end up being one customer TfL loses to a taxi or something

Surely being able to do this is exactly what the Spider Maps are best at? You go to the appropriate map (http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/wood-green-190816.pdf) and then trace the routes from your origin to the appropriate location. I found the old road plans very complicated as there was nothing to distinguish routes amongst themselves other than the numbers.

IanD · 11 Oct 2017

Mojo said:
Surely being able to do this is exactly what the Spider Maps are best at? You go to the appropriate map (http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/wood-green-190816.pdf) and then trace the routes from your origin to the appropriate location. I found the old road plans very complicated as there was nothing to distinguish routes amongst themselves other than the numbers.

I do like the spider maps but it is much easier to use one big map to plan a linked journey rather than a series of spider maps. Spider maps don't give any real idea of the route taken and where the spider's legs may intersect with other routes not originating in the hub of the map.

The journey planner is not always very good for planning multi-leg journeys by bus either. It seems the journey planner has not been programmed to recognise some interchanges which are easily found by looking at a proper map.
Eg I want to get from St Andrews Road in Walthamstow to Clapton, I would walk to Blackhorse Lane then get the 158 to Lea Bridge Road and then the 48/55/56 but the journey planner always seems to suggest walking to Higham Hill Road then getting the W15 to Leyton Green then the 48/55/56 - a longer journey and more prone to delays due to having to go in and out of Walthamstow Bus Station. Similarly, to get to Barnet, the suggestion is the W15 to Walthamstow Bus station then the 34 to Barnet Church whereas it is quicker to get the 158 to Crooked Billet and then the 34 from there.

Busaholic · 11 Oct 2017

plcd1 said:
Don't be surprised if you see the creation of a "Walking and Cycling" Directorate once Leon has gone. Many politicians have been pushing this for ages and Val Shawcross was certainly sympathetic when an Assembly Member. If the new directorate emerges expect buses to be pushed even further down the agenda than they already are. In terms of senior management understanding of buses I watched a recent Assembly webcast where TfL were dragged in to account for their budget. One senior TfL person stated that there had been £61m of bus contract savings this year and when challenged as to whether this had affected passengers through reduced services he said there had been no cuts. This is a blatant lie given routes have been cut, reorganised and frequencies cut across London week after week with many more reductions to come. There is also a corporate policy to axe 6m kms from the bus network this year to save £25m. Not sure how he was unaware of all this as a TfL Director.

I only wish I was (a) younger (b) in better health, (c) still living in London and (d) able to understand/cope with all aspects of modern technology because, if all those criteria were satisfied and, with the proviso of having the time necessary, I'd be campaigning relentlessly for buses and their passengers in London. It is a tragedy for the capital that no-one at the top seems to care: even Boris, for all his wrong-headedness, at least had opinions about London buses, not all negative, so had given them some thought.

Having been a reader of Buses magazine and its predecessor Buses Illustrated since 1958, I've just submitted my first ever letter to them on the subject and hope they'll publish it and (perhaps) ignite a debate, though I fear it may be too late.

DynamicSpirit · 12 Oct 2017

Mojo said:
Surely being able to do this is exactly what the Spider Maps are best at? You go to the appropriate map (http://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/wood-green-190816.pdf) and then trace the routes from your origin to the appropriate location. I found the old road plans very complicated as there was nothing to distinguish routes amongst themselves other than the numbers.

Not really. Spider maps show all the direct routes from a particular small area. But because they are non-geographical, you basically have to know the name of the stop you want to be able to see if you can get to it from a spider map. Also, because connections are not shown, you can't tell from them whether there's a good way to get to your destination by changing buses.

In my case, my destination was 'any bus stop that's within reasonable walking distance of any of any station east of - say - Camden Road - along the North London line'. Without knowing the names of every single stop that meets that requirement, there's no way I can tell from a spider map how best to make that journey - or even whether the journey can reasonably be done. But with a geographical map, it wouldn't be too hard to see that.

I do take your point about reading numbers along the roads on the old-style road plans being hard. I suspect the ideal would be something that shows routes as coloured lines - spider-map-style, but geographically, and superimposed on an actual road map.

DynamicSpirit · 12 Oct 2017

plcd1 said:
Don't be surprised if you see the creation of a "Walking and Cycling" Directorate once Leon has gone. Many politicians have been pushing this for ages and Val Shawcross was certainly sympathetic when an Assembly Member. If the new directorate emerges expect buses to be pushed even further down the agenda than they already are. In terms of senior management understanding of buses I watched a recent Assembly webcast where TfL were dragged in to account for their budget. One senior TfL person stated that there had been £61m of bus contract savings this year and when challenged as to whether this had affected passengers through reduced services he said there had been no cuts. This is a blatant lie given routes have been cut, reorganised and frequencies cut across London week after week with many more reductions to come. There is also a corporate policy to axe 6m kms from the bus network this year to save £25m. Not sure how he was unaware of all this as a TfL Director.

Do you have some links to back up those assertions? If they are correct, then that sounds like something that I'd be strongly inclined to contact my GLA representatives about, as it does sound a fairly bad state of affairs. But would want to be sure of my facts before I do contact them.

Statto · 13 Oct 2017

Was in London a couple of days ago, so paid a visit to Ian Allan bookshop & got a couple of paper copies of the Mike Harris version, & my impressions are whilst they're good, they are a bit on the small side, you need a magnifying glass to read the print.

Also noted, the info desk at Liverpool Street Bus Station[the one opposite the bus stands]still had paper copies of the TFL maps

Busaholic · 13 Oct 2017

Statto said:
Was in London a couple of days ago, so paid a visit to Ian Allan bookshop & got a couple of paper copies of the Mike Harris version, & my impressions are whilst they're good, they are a bit on the small side, you need a magnifying glass to read the print.

Also noted, the info desk at Liverpool Street Bus Station[the one opposite the bus stands]still had paper copies of the TFL maps

The L.T. bus maps that Mike Harris apes had also got a bit on the small side when routes started to get shorter, far more roads got bus coverage, etc from the late 1960s onwards. They more recently complemented TfL's own efforts, but I agree they are not ideal on their own, but power to his elbow as last man standing.

As regards Liverpool Street Bus Stn, they'll be giving out maps showing, amongst other things, the 23 starting from there while, in reality, it got cut back to Aldwych last month! Loads of other Central London routes will have information even more out of date, so I hope they are giving warnings out too.

alex397 · 18 Oct 2017

In a similar way to TfL, Kent County Council also stopped producing paper bus maps (although there was nothing official about them stopping it), but kept a county-wide map, and local area maps, all online. They were updated during September 2017.

Surprise surprise, they have now been removed from the website. They now direct you to use Traveline, which is not suitable for everyone.

The bus maps are obviously useful for enthusiasts, but I also used them to plan walks around the countryside, and also to see if I could catch a bus to somewhere I needed to go. It was far quicker than looking up Traveline maps (which are good now as they use OpenStreetMap data), and comparing individual routes. What a shame. No doubt they have "no money" to maintain them, and they will use the good old internet excuse.

radamfi · 19 Oct 2017

The quadrant maps were still available at London Bridge bus station yesterday evening.

In reality, the bus maps were mostly out of date because changes occur regularly without the maps being updated. In the Netherlands, for example, they mostly change the timetables once a year, the same time as the annual rail timetable change, and a new map comes out to coincide.

DynamicSpirit · 19 Oct 2017

Maps going out of date is of course a real problem with paper maps, but really shouldn't be an issue with online maps, which don't need reprinting.

I can see the attraction from the POV of simplicity of changing timetables once a year, though I'm not sure if that would be workable in a place like London where lots of things that merit changing bus routes - including changes to road layouts as well as new buildings etc. coming into use - happen throughout the year.

radamfi · 19 Oct 2017

DynamicSpirit said:
I can see the attraction from the POV of simplicity of changing timetables once a year, though I'm not sure if that would be workable in a place like London where lots of things that merit changing bus routes - including changes to road layouts as well as new buildings etc. coming into use - happen throughout the year.

If developments are known in advance, the December timetable can show times and routes before and after the opening.

Be3G · 19 Oct 2017

This is very very disappointing. I used the online quadrant maps a lot for all sorts of different purposes: finding useful connection points, planning journeys when I didn't trust TfL's planner, working out which routes would be the most convenient method of getting to large open spaces, that kind of thing. I knew that the paper versions were being discontinued, but it's crazy that even Hertfordshire which has suffered lots of bus cutbacks in recent times can still support the provision of detailed online mapping.

I wonder if there's some other kind of online mapping service that could be used or tweaked to provide a similar facility? I think once I saw some kind of London bus route map superimposed over OpenStreetMap data though I didn't save a link unfortunately. And of course TfL do provide a lot of open data which someone could probably use for a similar purpose, although I don't know if it's detailed enough to actually include roads (and sections thereof) traversed, or if it only goes as granular as stops (which is no good for hail & ride sections which haven't been given the full iBus treatment).

Aaaand don't get me started on these new spider maps that're more useless than the old ones for local route planning, because the central detailed mapped area is much smaller than the old ones.

(I'll echo the thanks to IanD too for uploading the final TfL quadrant maps!)

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