Should kids talk to teachers like this?

Gathursty · 22 Oct 2017

I'm horrified at the lack of manners shown by these primary school children. The children I teach in high school can be challenging but I've not heard any use language like that. They would be frogmarched to the Head of Year or Department, whoever is closest.

As for toilet breaks, I give the toilet pass out once per lesson per student and have a one in, one out policy so pairs and cliques can't waltz off for half the lesson.

RailUK Forums

Miss lauren92 · 22 Oct 2017

Gathursty said:
I'm horrified at the lack of manners shown by these primary school children. The children I teach in high school can be challenging but I've not heard any use language like that. They would be frogmarched to the Head of Year or Department, whoever is closest.

As for toilet breaks, I give the toilet pass out once per lesson per student and have a one in, one out policy so pairs and cliques can't waltz off for half the lesson.

You are the first person to agree it is disgusting. I seem to be to blame according to many for not letting children go to the toilet. I would love to know why a 10 year old thinks it is suitable to say to a teacher "I'm on my rag"

najaB · 22 Oct 2017

Miss lauren92 said:
You are the first person to agree it is disgusting.

A failure to comment isn't necessarily indicative of absence of opinion.

Darandio · 22 Oct 2017

Miss lauren92 said:
You are the first person to agree it is disgusting.

I assume you mean the way they are speaking to you?

Read the very first reply to your thread, your question was 'Should kids talk to teachers like this?'. I replied 'Well of course not'. Of course it isn't acceptable to be spoken to like that.

Miss lauren92 · 22 Oct 2017

Yes you did but not everyone did some felt it was my fault for refusing toilet breaks.

Darandio · 22 Oct 2017

Miss lauren92 said:
Yes you did but not everyone did some felt it was my fault for refusing toilet breaks.

To me, your attitude towards toilet breaks was fine, making an exception to allow someone with illness to use the toilet. It's obviously not the case for all teachers though.

najaB · 22 Oct 2017

Miss lauren92 said:
Yes you did but not everyone did some felt it was my fault for refusing toilet breaks.

You asked two questions. Some posts have only been in reply to one of them.

Pinza-C55 · 22 Oct 2017

When I was about 14 my history teacher walked into the classroom just as I told someone else to eff off. In response he caned me across the palm so hard that it left a U shaped weal which took several days to heal and stung like nothing else on Earth. This was in the early 1970s. I guess kids will be kids so what response does the OP think is correct ?

Pinza-C55 · 22 Oct 2017

Temple Meads said:
I think this thread/account could be a wind up... It's a strange way to start posting on a railway forum!

Not in a General Discussion forum though, since it is both General and a Discussion.

yorkie · 22 Oct 2017

Miss lauren92 said:
Yes you did but not everyone did...

To be fair, as others had already done this, and it should really go without saying it is totally unacceptable behaviour, I didn't repeat their sentiments. I concur with this:

najaB said:
A failure to comment isn't necessarily indicative of absence of opinion.

I doubt any member of this forum thinks it is acceptable for you to be treated the way you have been.

Are you able to talk to colleagues about this? I definitely think it is worth talking to others about it, but I also think there are limits to how much we can help through this forum.

(Also, some people are expressing surprise that this thread was posted on this forum by a new member; I will point out that this forum is surprisingly highly ranked on Google for various search terms on this subject!)

Xenophon PCDGS · 23 Oct 2017

yorkie said:
To be fair, as others had already done this, and it should really go without saying it is totally unacceptable behaviour, I didn't repeat their sentiments. I concur with this:

The use of such foul language by children of primary school age seems to be something that one also hears outside school premises, citing language used by those in that age range to staff on the Manchester Metrolink system when caught travelling without a ticket on the Airport line as in one recent example when a group of three were challenged.

Bayum · 23 Oct 2017

Toilet breaks are an absolute nightmare when teaching. My KS2 colleagues and I employ a system whereby children cannot go to the toilet until 45 minutes has passed from their last out of class jaunts. So, generally, that is from 1345 and 1115. The number of children who would miss the important teaching if they were able to go to the toilet as soon as they have moved to the carpet or gotten themselves in from break or lunchtime is astonishing, and more commonplace than you think. When I tell my Y3/4 class they can go to the toilet if I have the time back at break, they soon forget about ‘needing’ the toilet. Those who ask me again I let go.

With regard to the statement, completely unacceptable. To be sworn at is, in my eyes, punishable with in-school exclusion. Not accepted at my school in anyway, shape or form. To be spoken to about being ‘on the rag’ is again, unacceptable. Referral to head of phase/KS2 leader/ SLT, and time taken away at break AND lunchtime.

Bayum · 23 Oct 2017

I’d also consider restorative justice -‘ it made me upset that you used that word. Have you heard that word from outside of school? How do you think the person using the word felt? That’s entirely natural, but we need to consider alternative ways of expression our emotions, and we both know that it is unacceptable to do so in the way you did.’ Gives you and the child time to talk the incident through and gain an insight to their view of what they think is appropriate and not.

61653 HTAFC · 23 Oct 2017

Miss lauren92 said:
You are the first person to agree it is disgusting. I seem to be to blame according to many for not letting children go to the toilet. I would love to know why a 10 year old thinks it is suitable to say to a teacher "I'm on my rag"

A word of caution (not aimed at yourself as much as other contributors)... 10 and 11 year olds are not known for their eloquence. At that age, use of that language could be a defence mechanism, especially with a subject that's somewhat personal. Obviously rules are rules, but there are degrees and just perhaps a prudish or puritanical response might not be the best with regard to language. You will presumably know your students to a degree though, so will be best placed to make that judgement, perhaps with input from colleagues as others have suggested.

Gathursty · 23 Oct 2017

Also, the TES website is the go to teachers' forum in the UK but we are a broad church at RailUK Forums

https://www.tes.com/

Miss lauren92 · 23 Oct 2017

Bayum said:
Toilet breaks are an absolute nightmare when teaching. My KS2 colleagues and I employ a system whereby children cannot go to the toilet until 45 minutes has passed from their last out of class jaunts. So, generally, that is from 1345 and 1115. The number of children who would miss the important teaching if they were able to go to the toilet as soon as they have moved to the carpet or gotten themselves in from break or lunchtime is astonishing, and more commonplace than you think. When I tell my Y3/4 class they can go to the toilet if I have the time back at break, they soon forget about ‘needing’ the toilet. Those who ask me again I let go.

With regard to the statement, completely unacceptable. To be sworn at is, in my eyes, punishable with in-school exclusion. Not accepted at my school in anyway, shape or form. To be spoken to about being ‘on the rag’ is again, unacceptable. Referral to head of phase/KS2 leader/ SLT, and time taken away at break AND lunchtime.

Totally agree, I never let children go to the loo they never have to hold to on for longer than 2 hours.Obviously a medical problem aside but then they should have a note.

I would never use that sort of language whether it be a swear word or on my rag to describe my period. I was just disgusted.

Going back to the toilet, we have to wait as teachers too.

radamfi · 23 Oct 2017

Pinza-C55 said:
I guess kids will be kids so what response does the OP think is correct ?

I did teacher training briefly while at university as I didn't know what I wanted to do after leaving. This was over 25 years ago in a "nice" semi-rural area. I saw what (some) kids are like. I then realised you had to be nuts to do teaching. I would rather be on the dole than be a teacher.

najaB · 23 Oct 2017

radamfi said:
I would rather be on the dole than be a teacher.

It has to be something you do because you love it, not for the money.

radamfi · 23 Oct 2017

najaB said:
It has to be something you do because you love it, not for the money.

Even if the money was great I wouldn't do it!

yorkie · 23 Oct 2017

Also I will point out that sometimes kids say things without really knowing what they mean and/or how rude it is.

radamfi said:
I did teacher training briefly while at university as I didn't know what I wanted to do after leaving. This was over 25 years ago in a "nice" semi-rural area. I saw what (some) kids are like. I then realised you had to be nuts to do teaching. I would rather be on the dole than be a teacher.

If you can teach something kids enjoy, and you have kids who want to learn, there are few jobs that can give such good job satisfaction.

The problem with being a Teacher isn't so much the teaching, but the ridiculous pressure of planning, assessing, marking, dealing with paperwork and behavioural issues. I would urge people to seriously re-consider before going into teaching. However if someone has worked in a school as a Teaching Assistant for several months (preferably a year), talks to teachers, runs some clubs, does some break/lunch duties, and is fully aware of the pressures involved, is able to build a good rapport with students and is confident of not just being a good teacher but good at behaviour management etc, then - and only then - go for it.

And if you can manage it, it will be incredibly rewarding.

I know several ex-teachers who found it to be far too time consuming and stressful. But all would agree that it could be very rewarding.

I wouldn't say you have to be "nuts" but you would have to think about it very hard.

This thread may also be useful/interesting: A teacher speaks out about their experiences at willenhall school (in particular post #21, which includes the thoughts of a couple of forum members who have experience of teaching, who I have met several times at forum events).

Bayum · 23 Oct 2017

yorkie said:
Also I will point out that sometimes kids say things without really knowing what they mean and/or how rude it is.

If you can teach something kids enjoy, and you have kids who want to learn, there are few jobs that can give such good job satisfaction.

The problem with being a Teacher isn't so much the teaching, but the ridiculous pressure of planning, assessing, marking, dealing with paperwork and behavioural issues. I would urge people to seriously re-consider before going into teaching. However if someone has worked in a school as a Teaching Assistant for several months (preferably a year), talks to teachers, runs some clubs, does some break/lunch duties, and is fully aware of the pressures involved, is able to build a good rapport with students and is confident of not just being a good teacher but good at behaviour management etc, then - and only then - go for it.

M

Which is why I suggested reconciliation as opposed to, “Don’t ever say that again.”

I’m going to have to disagree with you with regards to being a TA going through to being a teacher. The job role of a TA does not set you up in anyway, shape or form to understand the pressures of being a teacher. Interventions are planned for and taught by the TA, teachers will decide on children who to be in intervention groups, work is marked and responsibility of the teacher, even if a TA is working with that group... I wouldn’t advise anyone going into teacher training without shadowing a teacher - not a TA, they are two wholly different job roles with huge differences in their job descriptions.

yorkie · 23 Oct 2017

Bayum said:
I’m going to have to disagree with you with regards to being a TA going through to being a teacher.

Fine, but do you not think it would be even slightly useful?

Bayum said:
The job role of a TA does not set you up in anyway, shape or form to understand the pressures of being a teacher.

That in itself is true, but you will be able to see different teachers (and thus different methods/styles of teaching), understand the procedures and protocols of the school, and get a good feel for that sort of environment.

Bayum said:
Interventions are planned for and taught by the TA, teachers will decide on children who to be in intervention groups, work is marked and responsibility of the teacher, even if a TA is working with that group... I wouldn’t advise anyone going into teacher training without shadowing a teacher - not a TA, they are two wholly different job roles with huge differences in their job descriptions.

Yes, and that too.

I am not suggesting the two jobs are comparable in any way.

Calthrop · 23 Oct 2017

Miss lauren92 said:
10 and 11

(OP's reply to previous poster's question. "How old are year 6 kids?")

I started off misunderstanding the first post, to be stating that the girl was six years old -- leading to considerable puzzlement, until getting as far as the above exchange ! (I've never been a parent or guardian, and am pretty poorly-informed on school-related stuff in general.)

Antman · 23 Oct 2017

radamfi said:
I did teacher training briefly while at university as I didn't know what I wanted to do after leaving. This was over 25 years ago in a "nice" semi-rural area. I saw what (some) kids are like. I then realised you had to be nuts to do teaching. I would rather be on the dole than be a teacher.

My daughter did some training a few years ago, again a school in a nice semi rural area. She was horrified at the behaviour and soon decided teaching wasn't for her. Can't help wondering what behaviour must be like in rougher areas!

ComUtoR · 23 Oct 2017

Should 'children' speak to Teachers in a disrespectful manner ? No.
Should children be prevented from going to the toilet ? No.
Should a young girl be forced to state her reason and suffer embarrassment ? No.
Should a Teacher then prevent someone going to the toilet because they were spoken to rudely ? No, that's just spite.

yorkie · 23 Oct 2017

ComUtoR said:
Should 'children' speak to Teachers in a disrespectful manner ? No.
Should children be prevented from going to the toilet ? No.
Should a young girl be forced to state her reason and suffer embarrassment ? No.
Should a Teacher then prevent someone going to the toilet because they were spoken to rudely ? No, that's just spite.

Out of interest, what would you do if a child rudely demanded to go to the toilet?

Did you read Bayum's post above, and if you had a day in a school's policy in this area, what would you suggest?

ComUtoR · 23 Oct 2017

Did the child rudely demand to go to the toilet or did they ask, get refused then stated they were on the rag ?

Teaching is difficult and a profession that certainly demands respect from both pupil and parent alike. That respect should still be earned and taking a draconian approach to no breaks whatsoever just leads to conflict. As evidenced in this case. Flat out refusing people the basic need to defecate or urinate or simply attend to their womanly needs is out dated. The intent of the policy isn't to prevent people from the need to go to the toilet, its to prevent disruption and kids using it as an excuse to wander.

Remember we are dealing with 11yr olds. As an adult I am able to go to the loo whenever I wish. Pretty much most employment will let you get up and take a pee when you need. Why then treat kids like they can't ?

Common sense should prevail in all circumstances.

Antman · 23 Oct 2017

ComUtoR said:
Should 'children' speak to Teachers in a disrespectful manner ? No.
Should children be prevented from going to the toilet ? No.
Should a young girl be forced to state her reason and suffer embarrassment ? No.
Should a Teacher then prevent someone going to the toilet because they were spoken to rudely ? No, that's just spite.

Children going to the toilet is likely to disrupt lessons, go at break time.

Darandio · 23 Oct 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Children going to the toilet is likely to disrupt lessons, go at break time.

And if they can't wait?

Miss lauren92 · 23 Oct 2017

Darandio said:
And if they can't wait?

If they have been at break, there should be no reason they cannot wait.

Should kids talk to teachers like this?

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