Platform Overshoot - Do They Happen Often?

gsnedders · 3 Nov 2017

I always feel like the UK has way more variation in stopping patterns than most other places I go to, but I don't know if that's true (esp. v. other places in Europe), which certainly won't help with failure to call.

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High Dyke · 3 Nov 2017

gordonthemoron said:
sometime early 90's, Northbound ECML train overshot the platform at Grantham completely

As a youth...I once pulled the communication cord as the railtour I was travelling on approached Grantham too fast to stop, as booked. The train stopped about a mile and a half from the station. Cue irate guard and railtour stewards demanding answers. I merely showed them the railtour itinery which showed the booked stop and followed by some embarressed on train staff. The train was eventually reversed the whole way back to the station for a number of us to alight.

gray1404 · 3 Nov 2017

I've been on a Hunts Cross service that failed to call at Moorfields. The train was taken out of service at Liverpool Central and part cancelled.

hounddog · 3 Nov 2017

Seem to be a lot of drivers on here who think that failing to stop is just one of those things. And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

bramling · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
Seem to be a lot of drivers on here who think that failing to stop is just one of those things. And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

With the combination of the repetitive nature of the job and wide variations in stopping pattern, with the fact that trains can't just be stopped on a whim, fails to call are unfortunately pretty much inevitable. Unless you have a solution to prevent them?

Misjudgements of braking are much rarer.

Deafdoggie · 3 Nov 2017

I have never worked as a train driver, but I have worked a bus driver, and that too is very easy to make a mistake. Although much easier to correct (usually) than a train error. And generally, no one reports you for it either! But very easy to make a mistake.

Never happened to me on a train, but then I generally travel on a "All trains call at all stations" service, or cross country, who usually have regular calling patterns. I can see how irregular calling caused issues.

hounddog · 3 Nov 2017

bramling said:
With the combination of the repetitive nature of the job and wide variations in stopping pattern, with the fact that trains can't just be stopped on a whim, fails to call are unfortunately pretty much inevitable. Unless you have a solution to prevent them?

Misjudgements of braking are much rarer.

Well, there have been suggestions of some sort of electronic assistance in the cab to support route knowledge (which could be easily expanded to include the stopping pattern for that journey), but whenever these are discussed on here the drivers say they don't need them.

I wonder how these 'just one of those things' drivers react when payroll screws up their wages. Do they still say 'mistakes happen' or do they kick up a fuss?

Bromley boy · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
Well, there have been suggestions of some sort of electronic assistance in the cab to support route knowledge (which could be easily expanded to include the stopping pattern for that journey), but whenever these are discussed on here the drivers say they don't need them.

I wonder how these 'just one of those things' drivers react when payroll screws up their wages. Do they still say 'mistakes happen' or do they kick up a fuss?

Failures to call have nothing to do with route knowledge. Drivers already have their diagrams in the cab, which display their stopping pattern. Rest assured it’s taken very seriously and no driver ever intends to fail to call. However, from time to time, it’s inevitable that errors will happen.

What on earth does that have to do with payroll?

Antman · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
Seem to be a lot of drivers on here who think that failing to stop is just one of those things. And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

Well I'm not a train driver but we all make mistakes. Surely stopping at red lights is far more important?

QueensCurve · 3 Nov 2017

GaryMcEwan said:
Currently travelling from Croy to Glasgow Queen Street which was meant to be stopping at Lenzie.

As we were approaching Lenzie the driver was coming in far too fast and had to slam on the brakes in the result the front 3 carriages of a 6 carriage train overshot the platform. Does this happen often?

This is the very first time where I've been on a train where it's overshot the platform.

I experienced this once on a Liverpool to London diverted into St Pancras from Nuneaton on a Sunday about 1984. Driver missed the braking point for the scheduled stop at St Albans and the Guard dropped the brake on. The train stopped past the platform and, having sought the required authority, set back into the platform.

bramling · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
Well, there have been suggestions of some sort of electronic assistance in the cab to support route knowledge (which could be easily expanded to include the stopping pattern for that journey), but whenever these are discussed on here the drivers say they don't need them.

I wonder how these 'just one of those things' drivers react when payroll screws up their wages. Do they still say 'mistakes happen' or do they kick up a fuss?

Yes you can put electronic assistance in the cab, but you have to consider whether it's worthwhile against the very real risk of distraction. Fails to call are comparatively rare, so I'd suggest it's probably not worthwhile.

As regards a payroll error, if a mistake happens then it would simply get rectified asap. That option doesn't exist after a fail to call - it has to be got right first time.

Eccles1983 · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
Seem to be a lot of drivers on here who think that failing to stop is just one of those things. And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

I'm getting a nasty whiff off this one.

Methinks someone has a scab to pick and os using this as his way to do so.

Bromley boy · 3 Nov 2017

Sussex Guy said:
Well I'm not a train driver but we all make mistakes. Surely stopping at red lights is far more important?

As far as mistakes go, a failure to call is a lot lower down the list than a SPAD, but would be treated more seriously than accepting a wrong route, for example.

I know someone who had it happen recently - he misread his diagram and flew though a calling point (only a few peak time services call there, his was one of them). The first he knew of it was when he heard hammering on his cab door from (justifiably) angry passengers. He ended up with a crowd of furious people standing his cab window at the next stop, followed by an unpleasant chat with his manager and a six month "development plan".

All in all, not a good day out.

bramling · 3 Nov 2017

High Dyke said:
As a youth...I once pulled the communication cord as the railtour I was travelling on approached Grantham too fast to stop, as booked. The train stopped about a mile and a half from the station. Cue irate guard and railtour stewards demanding answers. I merely showed them the railtour itinery which showed the booked stop and followed by some embarressed on train staff. The train was eventually reversed the whole way back to the station for a number of us to alight.

Can't blame anyone for pulling the cord ... however a disbenefit of doing this is that if railhead conditions are less than perfect it's quite possible to end up with a complete train of flatted wheels!

dctraindriver · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
Seem to be a lot of drivers on here who think that failing to stop is just one of those things. And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

No safety is the most important part of the job. It’s why the training takes a while and we get constantly checked we are doing what we should be doing.

However I’m not perfect and I've made mistakes too, which I’ve learnt from. I expect you’ve learnt from your screw ups too.

And I guarantee every driver who has had an issue will be beating themselves up more than their managers or the type of people who tend to judge.......

I’m bloody proud to do this job, I don’t go to work to make mistakes.

HarleyDavidson · 3 Nov 2017

whhistle said:
While I understand it does happen, it does worry me that drivers simply "forget" their journey details.

Years ago, I was working a train from Kingston and I'd stopped perfectly all the way to New Malden and away we went leaving on Y-Y, as we approached Raynes Park, the signal went from Y-G, I just put her in full power and then suddenly realised that I wasn't on the Cobham that I was due to work later and I shoved the brake into emergency and to the hilarity of a Waterloo driver who was waiting on an up Epsom & waved as I went sailing straight through Raynes Park by 6 coaches, called the signaller and told I'd gone too far to set back and had to go to Wimbledon where they held the next train back.

OMG, did I get stick for it, I had the walk of shame and the amount of p*ss taking by the mob at Waterloo was horrendous, I can remember it as if it were yesterday. I must admit the last one now was about 10 or so years ago and I mark up the schedule sheet with stars *** & highlighter pens now to make sure that if there are any extra unusual stops that I do them.

A favourite is Esher on race days or stupid one's like Berrylands, New Malden & Raynes Park on Cobham's & Woking's when engineering work is on.

What really hacks me off though is when you get criticised by those who "work" in offices do nice regular shifts & POETS etc, who can correct all of their mistakes with the delete or backspace key and not think anything of it.

Try getting up at 0200, 0300, 0400 & doing long shifts & boring repetitive suburban work and then throw in a nice comfy seat, with the heating on just gently and see how well you do!

Oh and then don't forget to sling in the lovely British weather too with freezing fog, fog, snow & ice and or leaves, fog and darkness and then that'll sort out the men from the boy's!

And of course you'll have to do that for 4 or 5 days on the bounce as well and lets see how you feel when you get back and do it again the next day. Most of you would run a mile from it, so before you start criticising drivers for making the odd faux pas, look in your own camp first and put your house in order.

Dieseldriver · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
Seem to be a lot of drivers on here who think that failing to stop is just one of those things. And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

Says someone who clearly has very little knowledge on the subject.
Drivers are human, they have lapses and if you had any idea how much effort we put into lifestyle management, non technical skills, dealing with distractions, prioritising tasks, dealing with fatigue and maintaining high levels of concentration then you would see that overall we have pretty good 'success rates'.

A fail to call is investigated, Driver interviewed, possibly even taken off driving duties. It is entered into your file as an operational incident which you have to declare for the rest of your career if you apply for another job.
In the grand scheme of things, a fail to call is little more than an inconvenience to passengers intending to leave/join the train (it can however indicate a wider issue regarding the Drivers performance). It is still treated seriously however and is not some thing that any Driver is blasé about.
I do think a lot of people outside the Driving Grade are totally unaware of just how much scrutiny we are put under and how seriously incidents like this are treated

leightonbd · 3 Nov 2017

I think, to level things out, that one of the drivers on this forum should open up a thread where the punters/ civvies (or whatever we should call ourselves) should fess up to our worst workplace cockups. I know most of us won't be in safety-related jobs but I bet we have all, metaphorically, had our own walks of shame in our time.

High Dyke · 3 Nov 2017

Dieseldriver said:
Says someone who clearly has very little knowledge on the subject.
Drivers are human, they have lapses and if you had any idea how much effort we put into lifestyle management, non technical skills, dealing with distractions, prioritising tasks, dealing with fatigue and maintaining high levels of concentration then you would see that overall we have pretty good 'success rates'.

A fail to call is investigated, Driver interviewed, possibly even taken off driving duties. It is entered into your file as an operational incident which you have to declare for the rest of your career if you apply for another job.
In the grand scheme of things, a fail to call is little more than an inconvenience to passengers intending to leave/join the train (it can however indicate a wider issue regarding the Drivers performance). It is still treated seriously however and is not some thing that any Driver is blasé about.
I do think a lot of people outside the Driving Grade are totally unaware of just how much scrutiny we are put under and how seriously incidents like this are treated

Well said. I understand the seriousness of such incidents - a driver friend of mine had a station overrun a few weeks ago. As a 'bobby' I've had to apply the rules and regs when a driver has done the same in my area of control. it isn't a nice situation to be in for either party at the time.

Ianno87 · 3 Nov 2017

ANorthernGuard said:
Calling patterns are so mixed up on some routes its a surprise that they don't happen more often

Coventry corridor is bad for fail to stops (and, equally, stopping when not booked to) due to the complexity of the LM stopping pattern, necessary to get the timetable to work.

Other common cause are stations normally missed by 'fast' trains, but where occasional trains do stop:
-Romford
-Watford Jn
-Milton Keynes Central (personally witnessed one here)
-Slough
-Stansted Mountfitchet
-Moses Gate/Farnworth/Kearsley/Clifton

I've also been on a train that has failed to stop at Codsall (of all places...)

Bromley boy · 3 Nov 2017

leightonbd said:
I think, to level things out, that one of the drivers on this forum should open up a thread where the punters/ civvies (or whatever we should call ourselves) should fess up to our worst workplace cockups. I know most of us won't be in safety-related jobs but I bet we have all, metaphorically, had our own walks of shame in our time.

Great idea have just done so in general discussion....

Essexman · 3 Nov 2017

It happened at Calais on a Eurostar I was on once. I think the driver forgot to stop as he braked hard but most of the train was out of the station. We were delayed for about 1/2 hour while he got permission to reverse then reset the computer.

SpacePhoenix · 3 Nov 2017

bramling said:
It’s not as simple as forgetting. Stopping patterns vary, and it’s very easy to drive on autopilot because of the repetitive nature of the driving job, particularly if one nearly always non-stops a station when running on that line or whilst driving that traction. Autopilot driving is very common, and comes about through always doing the same actions in the same places which for the most part is how to drive a train on a given route.

Would the prevention of accidental platform overshoots and fail to stops be part of the reason that a few TOCs introduced the DAS system?

noddingdonkey · 3 Nov 2017

The only one I remember experiencing was at Mirfield over 15 years ago, where a 142 heading for Leeds overshot, presumably due to adhesion issues, but luckily the rear door was still in the platform so the Guard simply made a PA announcement for passengers to use the rear door.

ComUtoR · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

One of the least important parts of my job, cheers for trying though.

RPM · 3 Nov 2017

SpacePhoenix said:
Would the prevention of accidental platform overshoots and fail to stops be part of the reason that a few TOCs introduced the DAS system?

I'm not sure that was one of the primary reasons for DAS, but yes, it can help prevent station misses. It's not a panacea though.

RPM · 3 Nov 2017

hounddog said:
Seem to be a lot of drivers on here who think that failing to stop is just one of those things. And there was me thinking that stopping in the right places was the single most important part of the job.

Unsure if that statement is naive, ignorant or some sort of p*ss-take.

fowler9 · 4 Nov 2017

RPM said:
Unsure if that statement is naive, ignorant or some sort of p*ss-take.

Personally speaking I would think that the primary job would be to make sure no one dies or gets injured whilst they are traveling. Where they get off is surely secondary?

bussnapperwm · 4 Nov 2017

What happens in both the case of D/COp (Driver/Conductor operation) and DOO if the opposite happens and a train stops at a station it doesn't normally stop (such on the Coventry - Birmingham he's booked to not stop at Canley but for some reason - such as misreading his diagram - he does).

HarleyDavidson · 4 Nov 2017

Class 172 Fan said:
What happens in both the case of D/COp (Driver/Conductor operation) and DOO if the opposite happens and a train stops at a station it doesn't normally stop (such on the Coventry - Birmingham he's booked to not stop at Canley but for some reason - such as misreading his diagram - he does).

You'll be treated pretty much the same as not stopping.

Platform Overshoot - Do They Happen Often?

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