• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

GWR Class 800

Status
Not open for further replies.

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,655
To book a table on the 1045 pullman from London Paddington to Cardiff is the only way to ensure your place by travelling first class?

In which case I guess it might be cheaper to risk buying a standard ticket and asking for an upgrade on the day? Or risk buying a standard and seeing if there is avaliability?

Surprised when you buy a first ticket (an advance for thta train is the cheapest) the site does not mention the restaurant ?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

D1009

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2012
Messages
3,166
Location
Stoke Gifford
To book a table on the 1045 pullman from London Paddington to Cardiff is the only way to ensure your place by travelling first class?

In which case I guess it might be cheaper to risk buying a standard ticket and asking for an upgrade on the day? Or risk buying a standard and seeing if there is avaliability?

Surprised when you buy a first ticket (an advance for thta train is the cheapest) the site does not mention the restaurant ?
From what I have heard GWR Pullman dining is rarely well patronised on trains outside the peak period, and those prepared to pay for the meals are welcomed with open arms, whatever ticket they hold. There's no reason why the IETs should be any different from HSTs in this regard.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
10,048
The Scottish routes? There's some 125mph track on the ECML east of Edinburgh, but nothing above 100mph further north.

So long as the ECML overhead power supply is boosted, an issue which I seem to recall was also mentioned in Roger Ford's article, I can't think of any reason why 800s, 801s and TPE's 802s will not be able to run at 125mph where it is allowed in Scotland.

Or do the laws of physics differ north of the border? GWR's 800s seem to manage 125mph on electric power without much fuss, despite having equipment on top and pocket doors.
I would certainly hope they would achieve 125mph on electric with no effort! The issue surely is that they must be using more energy than if they were more aerodynamically efficient.
 

Envoy

Established Member
Joined
29 Aug 2014
Messages
2,478
From what I have heard GWR Pullman dining is rarely well patronised on trains outside the peak period, and those prepared to pay for the meals are welcomed with open arms, whatever ticket they hold. There's no reason why the IETs should be any different from HSTs in this regard.
Hardly surprising that GWR Pullman Dining is not well patronised - they even say it themselves - that it is a best kept secret:>https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/journey-information/on-board/pullman-dining
"Our Pullman Dining car is one of Britain’s best kept secrets”.

What I don’t understand is this: 5.58am a train leaves Paddington offering ‘Welsh Breakfast’ but only as far as Swindon. Why should people not be able to have breakfast after this station? Likewise, at 10.45 am, a train leaves Swansea offering ‘Welsh Breakfast’ as far as Cardiff. So, being as the chefs are on-board, why would such a train not continue to offer say lunch between Cardiff and London - with last orders perhaps by Swindon?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

JN114

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2005
Messages
3,355
What I don’t understand is this: 5.58am a train leaves Paddington offering ‘Welsh Breakfast’ but only as far as Swindon. Why should people not be able to have breakfast after this station?

It’s a full table-service breakfast. There is insufficient time in the 55 minute run from Swindon to Paddington in which to serve the fayre on offer and have everything cleared up ready to disembark at Paddington.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
10,048
Hardly surprising that GWR Pullman Dining is not well patronised - they even say it themselves - that it is a best kept secret:>https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/journey-information/on-board/pullman-dining
"Our Pullman Dining car is one of Britain’s best kept secrets”.

What I don’t understand is this: 5.58am a train leaves Paddington offering ‘Welsh Breakfast’ but only as far as Swindon. Why should people not be able to have breakfast after this station? Likewise, at 10.45 am, a train leaves Swansea offering ‘Welsh Breakfast’ as far as Cardiff. So, being as the chefs are on-board, why would such a train not continue to offer say lunch between Cardiff and London - with last orders perhaps by Swindon?
I've never liked GWR's approach to catering. Either you pay through the nose for a full three course meal if you happen to be on a limited selection of trains or microwave stuff from the buffet. Now with the 800s the contrast is even starker with the absence of a buffet.
 

bastien

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2016
Messages
427
I would certainly hope they would achieve 125mph on electric with no effort! The issue surely is that they must be using more energy than if they were more aerodynamically efficient.

I'm sure these 'issues' are getting more and more obscure by the day.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
10,048
H
I'm sure these 'issues' are getting more and more obscure by the day.
How do you mean? Do you refute the basic laws of physics? Aerodynamic efficiency tends to kick in on trains above 40mph. A more aerodynamically efficient vehicle requires less energy to reach a certain speed. The roof, the door pockets and the large gap between coaches on the 800s all cause air resistance and could have been designed out. To quote Ian Walmsley in Modern Railways, the roof looks like a ploughed field.
 

bastien

Member
Joined
14 Aug 2016
Messages
427
H

How do you mean? Do you refute the basic laws of physics? Aerodynamic efficiency tends to kick in on trains above 40mph. A more aerodynamically efficient vehicle requires less energy to reach a certain speed. The roof, the door pockets and the large gap between coaches on the 800s all cause air resistance and could have been designed out. To quote Ian Walmsley in Modern Railways, the roof looks like a ploughed field.

Well here's Hitachi Rail's vacancies page: http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/careers/opportunities/current-vacancies

Get on it! Be sure to mention the laws of physics on your C.V.
 
Joined
22 Jun 2013
Messages
388
First trip yesterday from Bristol Temple Meads to Paddington.

Good points - even in diesel is pretty quiet; more tables (although it's hard to imagine less than current).

Bad points - seat backs are hard; lights are so very bright; no USB sockets (weird in 2018), plug sockets are not in view so difficult to plug things in; no buffet is a big loss of facilities.

We were running 8 mins behind by Reading but managed to almost catch up by Paddington.

Could be easily improved with a few tweaks, does anyone know if the lighting can be adjusted?
 

DylanThomas

Member
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Messages
19
I have worked quite a few of these now, there are a lot of positives but a few issues to iron out:

The disabled toilets go out of order if you pull the handle rather than push the button (don't try it you will get trapped inside)

The reservation system has been unreliable (software update needed I believe)

The catering hot water machine is unreliable

The train managers have not worked out how to turn up the heating yet (a lot if trains have been cold on board)

The catering trolley continually passes through first class to get to the kitchen (if you've paid that amount you don't want to be continually disturbed)

Dwell times at stations seem rather long (slow operation of doors)

Currently during the 2x5 operation, many passengers in peak cram into one set, leaving the front set virtually empty, unaware it's two trains and they can't walk through.

Many passengers walk into the first class catering kitchen thinking its a door to access the rest of the train (not realising its two sets)

The luggage racks can't take large suitcasesand it isn't clear outside where to board for the luggage/cycle cupboards.

The cycle cupboards are not being locked with cycles inside due to lack of fire detection equipment within them.

On board lighting is garishly bright.

The seats are hard, but actually ergonomic, so better for your posture

First Class is a serious step down from the recently refurbished HST first class (IET government spec v HST GWR spec)

Currently the two set operation requires a Ticket Examiner in the front set and a Train Manager (guard) in the rear. This is a temporary measure until a permanent deal can be reached with the unions. Quite often due to shortages of TEs...one set of five has been locked out of use causing severe overcrowding...shortages are particularly noticeable at weekends. The TE team are trying to cover their usual duties (DOO trains in the east, which are themselves expanding in length) whilst also trying to cover the IET. They are stretched.

Finally, due to poor luggage space design...luggage often prevents the trolley getting through the train. This has caused countless on train complaints.

On the five car sets wheelchair passengers only have a space in first class. There is no space in standard, yet standard also has a disabled toilet. Go figure!?!

I will think of more
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
On the five car sets wheelchair passengers only have a space in first class. There is no space in standard, yet standard also has a disabled toilet. Go figure!?!

Not hard to figure - not all people with disabilities use wheelchairs but may still find the extra space and support arms in disabled toilets useful. Or people using crutches due to an injury, etc.

I believe the first row of seats in coach A next to the disabled toilet for standard and at the adjacent end of coach B are designated as priority seats for the less mobile, so that they can be seated near this toilet.

And in the nine-car sets, there will be two wheelchair spaces for standard class ticketholders in coach A right next to this toilet, with the adjacent end of B again being priority seats.
 

DylanThomas

Member
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Messages
19
Not hard to figure - not all people with disabilities use wheelchairs but may still find the extra space and support arms in disabled toilets useful. Or people using crutches due to an injury, etc.

I should have made my point clearer because you came at it from the wrong angle. I agree with a disabled toilet in standard class, it was originally supposed to have some space for a wheelchair too in the carriage, it got deleted from the plan to increase seat numbers in the five car set. Two wheelchair areas in a five car was seen as overkill.

This causes two problems.

People with wheelchairs and their entourage get upgraded at no charge.

People with buggies with sleeping children within often block vestibules....with associated parents, other children and bags. Ideally they would be stood in the disabled area. This is a contributor to the trolley not coming through trains.
 

DylanThomas

Member
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Messages
19
People with buggies with sleeping children within often block vestibules....with associated parents, other children and bags. Ideally they would be stood in the disabled area. This is a contributor to the trolley not coming through trains.

See attached image from Twitter to part illustrate the point.Screenshot_20180118-072726.png
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
The handle, as in the one you're supposed to use, locks you in the toilet and puts it out of use, seriously? This seems like the kind of design flaw that's not only dangerous but the sort of thing just testing the system once would demonstrate. How on earth has it not been discovered?
 

DylanThomas

Member
Joined
23 Apr 2014
Messages
19
The handle, as in the one you're supposed to use, locks you in the toilet and puts it out of use, seriously? This seems like the kind of design flaw that's not only dangerous but the sort of thing just testing the system once would demonstrate. How on earth has it not been discovered?

It's a slider....you need to unlock via the switch and then open via a button. If you pull the slider gently first in error the toilet goes out of service.

Hitachi are aware and the sensor is going to be fixed. One of the 'known issues'
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
I should have made my point clearer because you came at it from the wrong angle. I agree with a disabled toilet in standard class, it was originally supposed to have some space for a wheelchair too in the carriage, it got deleted from the plan to increase seat numbers in the five car set. Two wheelchair areas in a five car was seen as overkill.

This causes two problems.

People with wheelchairs and their entourage get upgraded at no charge.

People with buggies with sleeping children within often block vestibules....with associated parents, other children and bags. Ideally they would be stood in the disabled area. This is a contributor to the trolley not coming through trains.

As initially put, your point was completely obscured.

I suspect it would be overkill to have two wheelchair areas. 180s had three wheelchair spaces, two in standard and one in first. I never saw more than one space in use on the same train in the entire time they were in use by FGW/GWR. 'Entourage'? Presumably a whole one person. Or are devious people stealing wheelchairs, pretending to be disabled and then bringing the entire family along for bargain trip in first?

If the DfT hadn't insisted on putting a super-dooper space-eating kitchen in all the five-car sets something else could have happened, but that's a moot point now. Once the nine-car sets start running, a lot of services will have wheelchair spaces in standard, so this 'issue' will not be one on all those services anyway.

Unless someone has placed a buggy directly across the doors into the coach - which is a probably an offence under some bylaw or other and a safety hazard in any case - I fail to see how that prevents a trolley getting through.

See attached image from Twitter to part illustrate the point.

Not sure the person in question illustrates anything, other than wanting to stand in a vestibule between Oxford and Hanborough all the time, if he is, as I strongly suspect, the person who posted this at the GW Passengers' Forum

I've now lost my IET virginity. As I only travel a single stop along the Cotswold Line - and as I sit most of the day at work - I choose to stand. The vestibule areas seem much smaller than on HSTs and 180s; it felt especially cramped with just six or seven standing today. The problem is increased since passengers for stations with short platforms are concentrated in just a couple of coaches. Early days, I know, but there is a sense of disappointment.

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18792.300

His (and others') choice to stand - I assume in the past he would have posted himself in the area around the disabled toilet in coach E on a Class 180, as the rest of the vestibules on those trains and on Mk3s are much the same size as an 800. How dare the Hitachi designers try to maximise seating capacity...

He could always stand in another one - probably all of his very own - back down the train and walk up approaching Hanborough. Some of us manage to walk up a train at other stations with short platforms and if you are doing a regular commute you can hardly claim to be unfamiliar with the journey time (eight minutes OXF-HND)/where you are on the route. In any case, the platform at Hanborough will be lengthened to seven-car length along with others on the Cotswold Line later this year, so he will soon be spoiled for choice of vestibules, whether on a five-car or a nine-car set.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Why is a free upgrade for wheelchair passengers (who don't get a seat as such anyway other than the one they bring with them) and a couple of people travelling with them a bad idea? It would seem a pragmatic option that might actually please everyone?
 

Alfie1014

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2012
Messages
1,126
Location
Essex
The disabled toilets go out of order if you pull the handle rather than push the button (don't try it you will get trapped inside)

Yep got the teeshirt for that, managed to get myself locked in the disabled loo on a unit's first day in traffic. Though after some anxious time (as my stop was coming up) I discovered that you can simply force the door open without little effort!

In respect of disabled spaces the 'regs' changed slightly when PRM TSI repalced RVAR. Previously a defined number of wheelchair spaces, (which drive the number of disabled toilets, unless both classes of accommodation can be provide in one coach), were required per class of travel. This is why the Voyagers have so many disabled toilets as Virgin originally were proposing three classes of accomodation, (in seperate coaches), so it made sense to have one single design of loo for 4 and 5 car trains.
RVAR 1998 extract said:
2 to 7 vehicles 2 wheelchair spaces
8 to 11 vehicles 3 wheelchair spaces
12 or more vehicles 4 wheelchair spaces
(4) Where one or more regulated rail vehicles in a train are provided for a different class of passenger accommodation from another regulated rail vehicle in that train there shall be not less than one wheelchair space in each class of passenger accommodation in that train.

Whereas PRM TSI indicates the number of wheelchair spaces dependant on the length of train with no specific requirements for class of accommodation;

PRM TS extract said:
Minimum number of wheelchair spaces per unit length
Unit length Number of wheelchair spaces by unit
Less than 30 m 1 wheelchair space
30 to 205 metres 2 wheelchair spaces
More than 205 to 300 metres 3 wheelchair spaces
More than 300 metres 4 wheelchair spaces

Of course any operator can choose to exceed the minimum requirements.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The seats are hard, but actually ergonomic, so better for your posture

If you're short. There's nothing ergonomic about either being forced to slouch or having the headrest wings shoved into your shoulders.

The "ironing board" with contoured cushions on the Electrostars is a much better seat as it works for people of all heights. Indeed, the Electrostar interior is vastly, vastly better than the Class 800 interior in every way except the silly little luggage racks present on all Electrostars.

I have no issue with hard seats - but I'm genuinely more comfortable on a Class 700.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
If you're short. There's nothing ergonomic about either being forced to slouch or having the headrest wings shoved into your shoulders.
At 6ft 2in I'm by no means short and I find that the seats as fitted to the IETs are comfortable with plenty of leg room. By no means do I feel like I'm being forced to slouch or having 'wings shoved into your shoulders'.
 

superalbs

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,470
Location
Exeter
The "ironing board" with contoured cushions on the Electrostars is a much better seat as it works for people of all heights. Indeed, the Electrostar interior is vastly, vastly better than the Class 800 interior in every way except the silly little luggage racks present on all Electrostars.

The Electrostar ironing board is no different to an ironing board on a Class 700 for example? What's all this about contoured cushions?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
At 6ft 2in I'm by no means short and I find that the seats as fitted to the IETs are comfortable with plenty of leg room. By no means do I feel like I'm being forced to slouch or having 'wings shoved into your shoulders'.

I think the extra 2-and-a-bit-in I have on you is the issue.

If the seats were the same height as the Grammer IC3000 they'd be fine, it's just that the "wings" start too low down for me. I was in pain before we even got to Reading.

FWIW I find the old Mk2 pre-IC70 winged seats and Turbostar winged seats to have the same issue, though because those are softer slouching isn't uncomfortable.

I agree the legroom is excellent - best on the network - but that's no consolation if the seat gives you back pain. I went from liking it at Paddington to glad of an HST to go back from Reading.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The Electrostar ironing board is no different to an ironing board on a Class 700 for example? What's all this about contoured cushions?

It is different on the GWR units. The base is slightly contoured/sloped rather than flat (edited), and this makes a massive difference to comfort e.g. by improving underthigh support.

ScotRail pioneered this cushion, I've sat on both side by side in the AT200 mockup when it was on display in Edinburgh. I was pleased to see GWR having used it when I tried both types of unit (on the same day) a couple of months ago.

Compare:

30194757560_efdcec0b28.jpg

GWR Electrostar seating

with:

Sch1060724_1421924873.jpg

Class 700 seating

looking particularly at the shape, angle and thickness of the base (the back does seem the same, I'd just never noticed the contour on that on 700s).

The difference is small but noticeable.
 
Last edited:

superalbs

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,470
Location
Exeter
It is different on the GWR units. The base and back cushions are slightly contoured rather than perfectly flat, and this makes a massive difference to comfort e.g. by improving underthigh support.

ScotRail pioneered this cushion, I've sat on both side by side in the AT200 mockup when it was on display in Edinburgh. I was pleased to see GWR having used it when I tried both types of unit (on the same day) a couple of months ago.

The Southern units do have the same base/back as the 700s though obviously with armrests.

http://www.greaterlondonphotos.co.uk/uploads/5/3/0/0/53002413/gwr-class-387-interior_orig.jpg
Looks pretty flat to me, and seemed pretty flat to me last time I was on one in December.

Any apparent curve in the base is merely the thickness of the seam on the GWR moquette.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
http://www.greaterlondonphotos.co.uk/uploads/5/3/0/0/53002413/gwr-class-387-interior_orig.jpg
Looks pretty flat to me, and seemed pretty flat to me last time I was on one in December.

Any apparent curve in the base is merely the thickness of the seam on the GWR moquette.

I've looked at a few photos of the ScotRail version (none really good enough to post) and they have stitching that the GWR one doesn't, so there are it seems three versions. But look at the angle of the base - it's only slightly different but I found it makes a noticeable difference, and my backside has spent many hours going from Bletchley all the way to Croydon and back on the Southern version (when they can be bothered to run it) and on 700s (when they couldn't be bothered so I've gone to St Pancras to change).

But anyway...none of this changes the fact that I find the GWR Class 387 to have a vastly superior Standard Class interior to the Class 800 in near enough every way.
 

superalbs

Established Member
Joined
3 Jul 2014
Messages
2,470
Location
Exeter
I've looked at a few photos of the ScotRail version (none really good enough to post) and they have stitching that the GWR one doesn't, so there are it seems three versions. But look at the angle of the base - it's only slightly different but I found it makes a noticeable difference, and my backside has spent many hours going from Bletchley all the way to Croydon and back on the Southern version (when they can be bothered to run it) and on 700s (when they couldn't be bothered so I've gone to St Pancras to change).

But anyway...none of this changes the fact that I find the GWR Class 387 to have a vastly superior Standard Class interior to the Class 800 in near enough every way.
Getting a few more rides on the 800s soon, in both classes, so I guess I can see if I agree.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top