Carnets - Why don't the TOCs put these on smartcards

Firstly apologies if this is the wrong part of the forum, wasn't sure if it should go here, general discussion or else where.

I read may disputes about Carnets, people accused of changing the date the most common. The TOCs claim that these are the most fraudlently used tickets on the network. To be honest I am not surprised. On the Great Northern route, many of the stations are not staffed, even ones that are such as Welwyn Garden City open all the gates in the evening peak to ensure safety on the platform. (They can't cope with the volume of people trying us use such a small exit). At the city end of the line many stations it is possible to exit without interaction with gatelines - ie changing onto the underground. So the heavy handed approach they are taking at Kings Cross is not going to stop the fraudster but his disproportionately hitting the honest passenger.

The solution is simple, but I am not sure why no TOCs use it. The smart card. Which on Great Northern is only any use for season tickets (as was the case in Scotrail - but this was a while ago). If they put the Carnet on the key then mistakes about dates and using the tickets twice are gone. Tap in and the tickets is validated and can't be used again. Simple.

Does anyone know if TOCs are that bothered about fraud why they choose not to make this technology work? Is it because they prefer the revenue from PF and prosecutions and by doing this will actually result in a drop in thier revenue?

From the passenger point of view I would love it. The tickets are hard to write on, I don't want 20 pieces of card. I don't like the TOCs guilty until proven inocent approach to all customer using them. I would rather not be fafing around dating tickets when I could just walk in, tap in, tap out and be on my way. Surely this is a win - win?

/RANT

One reason is that paper carnets are transferable, so if you have <n> people making a journey regularly, you could buy carnets and give them out as needed, whereas only one person can use a smartcard at a given time.

CyrusWuff said:

One reason is that paper carnets are transferable, so if you have <n> people making a journey regularly, you could buy carnets and give them out as needed, whereas only one person can use a smartcard at a given time.

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Good point. I recall some businesses buy the Edinburgh- Glasgow ones by the 100. I guess a smart card application for that is difficult but not impossible. I can text bus tickets to others. But then they only have a time limit of a few hours.

Perhaps the ITSO card data specification just doesn’t allow for carnets. I’m no expert, but how would you load a number of undated tickets, and still cope with the other products?

swt_passenger said:

Perhaps the ITSO card data specification just doesn’t allow for carnets. I’m no expert, but how would you load a number of undated tickets, and still cope with the other products?

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Carnets are defined in the "ITSO in National Rail Specification", so that's not the reason.

What if they were just converted to a set of 10 or 20 "ticket on departure" collection codes.

Each morning go to ticket machine, enter code, get freshly printed ticket for that day?

Each code can be used once only, but you can move them around between people

(or is the appeal the convenience of not using the ticket machine as opposed to the discount?)

swt_passenger said:

Perhaps the ITSO card data specification just doesn’t allow for carnets. I’m no expert, but how would you load a number of undated tickets, and still cope with the other products?

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Stagecoach East experimented with this a year or two ago on their bus network. Back in 2016 I purchased what was in effect a carnet of five Bedfordshire Dayrider tickets for my smartcard, called the "Bedfordshire 5 SmartDays Plus". The tickets were available for up to six months from the date of purchase, though I used all of them within a period of 3 weeks. Most drivers weren't sure of how to activate the tickets, and in two cases I was simply waved on after the driver tried fruitlessly for 2-3 minutes to activate the ticket. Looking at Stagecoach's website today, it seems this particular product is no longer on sale. I imagine too few people purchased it and it was too much of a headache for drivers when they did encounter one.

Nevertheless, it shows that ITSO does have the capacity to work as a carnet. Granted, in this case, it was the equivalent of rovers/rangers rather than standard single/return tickets, but I imagine that it could work for those too.

Failed Unit said:

From the passenger point of view I would love it.

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SWR have to offer carnets on smart as a franchise commitment.

Why not have carnets as a series of ticket on departures .the carnet ticket is a voucher code that you enter into the ticket machine and that prints off a ticket with a date of your choosing.

swt_passenger said:

Perhaps the ITSO card data specification just doesn’t allow for carnets. I’m no expert, but how would you load a number of undated tickets, and still cope with the other products?

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The Oxford Bus Company issue Carnet tickets on their ITSO card "The Key" - it works just fine. I've just loaded a dozen rides to London on mine. It can also hold a carnet of one day "dayrider" tickets that operate across both Stagecoach & OBC buses.

Silver Cobra said:

Stagecoach East experimented with this a year or two ago on their bus network. Back in 2016 I purchased what was in effect a carnet of five Bedfordshire Dayrider tickets for my smartcard, called the "Bedfordshire 5 SmartDays Plus". The tickets were available for up to six months from the date of purchase, though I used all of them within a period of 3 weeks. Most drivers weren't sure of how to activate the tickets, and in two cases I was simply waved on after the driver tried fruitlessly for 2-3 minutes to activate the ticket. Looking at Stagecoach's website today, it seems this particular product is no longer on sale. I imagine too few people purchased it and it was too much of a headache for drivers when they did encounter one.

Nevertheless, it shows that ITSO does have the capacity to work as a carnet. Granted, in this case, it was the equivalent of rovers/rangers rather than standard single/return tickets, but I imagine that it could work for those too.

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Odd that they need to do something special to activate them.

I've a West Yorkshire MCard which can happily hold a season ticket and a number of day tickets. If you do not have an active season ticket then touching on a bus activates a day ticket. I would have thought it would be even easier to cancel a one-off ticket.

matt_world2004 said:

Why not have carnets as a series of ticket on departures .the carnet ticket is a voucher code that you enter into the ticket machine and that prints off a ticket with a date of your choosing.

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Much of the benefit of a carnet, for all parties, is reduced queues!

PermitToTravel said:

Much of the benefit of a carnet, for all parties, is reduced queues!

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Have the option to print off dated future tickets?

matt_world2004 said:

Have the option to print off dated future tickets?

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Then you are back to the original problem of if you print multiple in advance, what stops you re-using then? What if you geninuely change your mind? At least with the pen - if you don’t travel you don’t put the date in the box.

Failed Unit said:

Then you are back to the original problem of if you print multiple in advance, what stops you re-using then? What if you geninuely change your mind? At least with the pen - if you don’t travel you don’t put the date in the box.

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If the tickets are dated for a future date. They would be invalid if used before that date.

When I was working on this type of project a year or two back, you quickly reaslised that ITSO isn't really that smart.

Another issue is the amount of tickets that an ITSO smartcard could hold.

matt_world2004 said:

If the tickets are dated for a future date. They would be invalid if used before that date.

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But that actually makes things worse than you have today as the ticket has restricted validly. At least the 5 or 10 pieces of card are flexible until you write on them.

That is why I asked if smart cards could resolve. The current situation is not good for the environment or the passengers who is treated like a potential criminal.

GTR has spoken of its plans to introduce flexible seasons, but I don't know how that has been progressing.

I think the idea is you buy a season but can use it over a longer period, but of course you MUST tap in and out every time. You could, say, get a week ticket and spread it over a longer period - useful if working just 2 or 3 days a week.

Likewise, if they introduce any form of capping or discounting then they could make carnets redundant by simply letting you buy daily tickets (or PAYG) and it discounts every 5 or 10 trips.

First they need to get people to get a Key and trust it, as many people have not had good experiences before. I would say they're worth a shot now.

jon0844 said:

GTR has spoken of its plans to introduce flexible seasons, but I don't know how that has been progressing.

I think the idea is you buy a season but can use it over a longer period, but of course you MUST tap in and out every time. You could, say, get a week ticket and spread it over a longer period - useful if working just 2 or 3 days a week.

Likewise, if they introduce any form of capping or discounting then they could make carnets redundant by simply letting you buy daily tickets (or PAYG) and it discounts every 5 or 10 trips.

First they need to get people to get a Key and trust it, as many people have not had good experiences before. I would say they're worth a shot now.

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Sounds right. I understand that KeyGo is live. No idea if it is or isn’t. Understand people use it on Southern. Not a clue about great northern.

Yes, it's working on Great Northern and has been for a month or two.

jon0844 said:

Yes, it's working on Great Northern and has been for a month or two.

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Have to log on and figure out how to enable it on mine then. The joys.

Failed Unit said:

On the Great Northern route, many of the stations are not staffed, even ones that are such as Welwyn Garden City open all the gates in the evening peak to ensure safety on the platform. (They can't cope with the volume of people trying us use such a small exit). At the city end of the line many stations it is possible to exit without interaction with gatelines - ie changing onto the underground. [...]

The solution is simple, but I am not sure why no TOCs use it. The smart card. Which on Great Northern is only any use for season tickets (as was the case in Scotrail - but this was a while ago). If they put the Carnet on the key then mistakes about dates and using the tickets twice are gone. Tap in and the tickets is validated and can't be used again. Simple.

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So the fraudster simply fails to touch in ...?

Those commuter services are too busy for regular inspections, and he can claim (potentially quite legitimately) that he has a valid ticket and attempted to touch in but something didn't quite work properly.

I used to take the tube to work every day, I would say a good tenth of my journeys did not get recorded, and a third were only recorded at one end. I had a season ticket so I didn't worry about touching in/out if the gates were open.

Calchas said:

So the fraudster simply fails to touch in ...?

Those commuter services are too busy for regular inspections, and he can claim (potentially quite legitimately) that he has a valid ticket and attempted to touch in but something didn't quite work properly.

I used to take the tube to work every day, I would say a good tenth of my journeys did not get recorded, and a third were only recorded at one end. I had a season ticket so I didn't worry about touching in/out if the gates were open.

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But they have no excuse if they get caught. Yes they can claim the reader didn’t work, but then the TOC will know of a fault as everyone else’s tickets would have worked. Much better than the current situation where some don’t even write the date on the ticket until they see the RPI.