Reversing the New Timetables

Eric · 1 Jul 2018

Spoke to one of the TPE managers today after another frustrating day of delayed trains and trains missing out stations because they were ridiculously late.

He said that someone high up has finally admitted that the new timetables aren't working and that a solution to reverse them was being sought.

RailUK Forums

DanNCL · 1 Jul 2018

The new TPE timetable has been chaos on the North TPE route. The Oxford Road - Piccadilly corridor is causing loads of delays, and as a result many Newcastle trains are being turned back at Darlington due to late running. Seems to be an almost daily basis that's happening now, it's dreadful.

Both TPE and Northern should go back to the old timetable I think.

Kieran1990 · 1 Jul 2018

Doubt a full reversal will happen but the airports returning to via Guide bridge instead of Vicotria-Cord-Picc would probably make the service work better.
But big political gamble reversing it with the cord costing so so much.

But as I’ve posted on the other TPE threads something needs to be done as it’s a daily struggle to trust the service.

Eric · 1 Jul 2018

DanNCL said:
The new TPE timetable has been chaos on the North TPE route. The Oxford Road - Piccadilly corridor is causing loads of delays, and as a result many Newcastle trains are being turned back at Darlington due to late running. Seems to be an almost daily basis that's happening now, it's dreadful.

Both TPE and Northern should go back to the old timetable I think.

The TPE manager was on one of the trains held up because they had a driver but no guard. The guard was stuck in Hull on a late running service. When the guard arrived 40 minutes late, control then made the train run fast missing out all the stations in between it was scheduled to stop.

According to the TPE manager, the new timetables allow for just eight and ten minutes turnaround times at the destination stations.

He also said TPE going after the ale trail profits and stopping at all stations between Piccadilly and Leeds was madness because the trains simply can't keep to the strict timetable.

DanNCL · 1 Jul 2018

Eric said:
According to the TPE manager, the new timetables allow for just eight and ten minutes turnaround times at the destination stations.

The Liverpool services get about 30 minutes turnaround time at Newcastle, but otherwise everything does appear to be ten minutes or less. Nowhere near enough time for the delays that frequently occur.

Eric said:
He also said TPE going after the ale trail profits and stopping at all stations between Piccadilly and Leeds was madness because the trains simply can't keep to the strict timetable.

The decision to include those services as part of TPE has always struck me as being a bad choice. The 185s can't keep to the timetable on them, and they could be put to much better use elsewhere. Northern would be much better off operating that service, like they did before May.

Eric · 1 Jul 2018

DanNCL said:
The Liverpool services get about 30 minutes turnaround time at Newcastle, but otherwise everything does appear to be ten minutes or less. Nowhere near enough time for the delays that frequently occur.

The decision to include those services as part of TPE has always struck me as being a bad choice. The 185s can't keep to the timetable on them, and they could be put to much better use elsewhere. Northern would be much better off operating that service, like they did before May.

I can't remember Newcastle mentioned but he said Scarborough, Hull, Middlesbrough 10 minutes with some Manchesters booked at 8 minutes. It's completely mad.

He said he hoped that they would be going back to Northern in the next timetable change.

He said the same as you that the 185 units are not regular stopping units and by having them stop every three minutes at places like Morley, Batley etc.... they just lose their place in the timetable.

DanNCL · 1 Jul 2018

Eric said:
I can't remember Newcastle mentioned but he said Scarborough, Hull, Middlesbrough 10 minutes with some Manchesters booked at 8 minutes. It's completely mad.

Newcastle turnarounds are 10 minutes for the Manchester Airport services, 30 minutes for the Liverpool services. Since the timetable change it would appear TPE no longer have exclusive use of platform 9 at Newcastle and they've now got to share it with Northern (I've seen several 142s in there in the last few weeks, before the timetable change nothing other than TPE used it), so platform allocations have become a bit more varied than they used to be, and that'll probably be making matters worse.

Eric said:
He said he hoped that they would be going back to Northern in the next timetable change.

That'd be good. It's much more suited to Northern than it is to TPE

Eric said:
He said the same as you that the 185 units are not regular stopping units and by having them stop every three minutes at places like Morley, Batley etc.... they just lose their place in the timetable.

Absolutely. IMO the 185s are more suited to the Hull services, and would probably work quite well on the Northern connect network too, but aren't at all suitable for all stations services.

Andyh82 · 1 Jul 2018

Eric said:
He also said TPE going after the ale trail profits and stopping at all stations between Piccadilly and Leeds was madness because the trains simply can't keep to the strict timetable.

I thought it was the complete opposite and that the Ale Trail doesn’t work anymore because there isn’t an all stations service.

158756 · 1 Jul 2018

Eric said:
He also said TPE going after the ale trail profits and stopping at all stations between Piccadilly and Leeds was madness because the trains simply can't keep to the strict timetable.

They don't have a choice. It was decided quite some time ago that 4 fast + 2 skip stopping was the way to go, and the DfT placed the lot with TPE.

IF we are going back to the old timetable it's basically an admission that railway investment is pointless.

jkkne · 1 Jul 2018

I’ve used the Newcastle - Man service every day for the past two weeks (new puppy means I don’t stay over)

Most days we’re 20 late, generally caused by a backlog leaving Leeds towards Huddersfield. But the tour of Manchester is ridiculous. You could probably walk to Piccadilly quicker from Vic half the time.

Every return journey has had no reservations and every train manager has apologised and blamed no turnaround time due to the timetable and encouraged us to complain. I’m lucky I use First so normally get a seat. Fear for those in standard.

yorksrob · 1 Jul 2018

So long as they don't reverse the timetable changes on the lines where they have improved things (S&C, Bentham, Hallam etc).

yorksrob · 1 Jul 2018

158756 said:
IF we are going back to the old timetable it's basically an admission that railway investment is pointless.

It depends on the investment. I don't think investing in longer trains would be pointless at all (assuming the cancellations and strikes on Northern don't permanently drive everyone away).

Itvstrikes me that the most successful timetable changes have been the simplest to implement - e.g providing what passengers want, such as later trains etc.

LNW-GW Joint · 1 Jul 2018

Eric said:
I can't remember Newcastle mentioned but he said Scarborough, Hull, Middlesbrough 10 minutes with some Manchesters booked at 8 minutes. It's completely mad.

Well, TPE are turning Liverpool services short at Manchester Victoria and parking spare 185s in the bays, because of the planned Lime St blockade.
The service should be better at the moment, not worse.
We are in this mess partly because TPE insisted on keeping its new timetable, so Northern had to replan around it.
I doubt anyone would sanction a return to the old timetable, too many reputations are dependent on it, from DfT down.

jamesst · 2 Jul 2018

Just sounds like a typical manager spreading a bit of rumour to be honest.

DarloRich · 2 Jul 2018

There is so much confusion and inaccurate comment on this thread it is humorous!

nottsnurse · 2 Jul 2018

Isn't the main issue with going back to the previous timetable the fact that it was a national change, and therefore any local changes (single TOC revisions) would/could have a knock-on on the wider scale?

pemma · 2 Jul 2018

Eric said:
The TPE manager was on one of the trains held up because they had a driver but no guard. The guard was stuck in Hull on a late running service. When the guard arrived 40 minutes late, control then made the train run fast missing out all the stations in between it was scheduled to stop.

According to the TPE manager, the new timetables allow for just eight and ten minutes turnaround times at the destination stations.

He also said TPE going after the ale trail profits and stopping at all stations between Piccadilly and Leeds was madness because the trains simply can't keep to the strict timetable.

That claim is inaccurate. While First Group might see the benefits of marketing the 'ale trail', the decision to replace the stoppers with semi-fasts was Network Rail's idea and was enforced on franchise bidders, it's not that First decided to make extra calls to try and get extra revenue. They have decided to run a North TPE service to Edinburgh when they weren't forced to but that's different.

I'd question whether this 'manager' was someone who has any knowledge of what is actually going on high up in the organisation, if he thinks they can just drop calls at stations like Slaithwaite.

bramling · 2 Jul 2018

nottsnurse said:
Isn't the main issue with going back to the previous timetable the fact that it was a national change, and therefore any local changes (single TOC revisions) would/could have a knock-on on the wider scale?

As I see it, going back introduces two issues:

1) Rolling stock and train crew diagrams would need to change. The former probably wouldn't be a problem except for a short transition period, except if there's a mismatch in stock for example electric vice diesel, but the latter means giving notice of changes, which requires quite a longer time lag, and summer holiday time would be the worst possible time to do it. In some cases it might be very difficult logistically if there have been changes to driver establishments at depots to fit around the new timetable.

2) If you only revert one area then sooner or later there are going to be timetable clashes at the margins. The oft-quoted LTS reversion involved a virtually self-contained network with only a handful of driver depots. It could be possible to revert certain areas and then leave it to the signalers and train crew supervisors to sort out on the day, however this could cause even more massive chaos over a wider area.

Having said that, I do think they could revert the Great Northern side of things if desparate. LNER timings are barely changed, so they could also revert at the London end without too much difficulty. This leaves the two open-access operators which shouldn't be that much of a problem (although there might be commercial issues), plus Cambridge-Kings Lynn and the Peterborough area, none of which should be massive showstoppers with a bit of planning, assuming there's resources available to do it of course. Then just the small matter of deciding what you do with 3tph south of the river, many of which haven't been running anyway, and where there are other alternative services available in many cases.

Eric · 2 Jul 2018

jcollins said:
That claim is inaccurate. While First Group might see the benefits of marketing the 'ale trail', the decision to replace the stoppers with semi-fasts was Network Rail's idea and was enforced on franchise bidders, it's not that First decided to make extra calls to try and get extra revenue. They have decided to run a North TPE service to Edinburgh when they weren't forced to but that's different.

I'd question whether this 'manager' was someone who has any knowledge of what is actually going on high up in the organisation, if he thinks they can just drop calls at stations like Slaithwaite.

But the train did miss out Slaithwaite along with Dewsbury and all the other stops when it was scheduled to stop.

It only stopped at Huddersfield, much to the frustration of the passengers wanting those stops that control had told it to pass through.

The sooner the stoppers go back to Northern the better.

pemma · 2 Jul 2018

Eric said:
But the train did miss out Slaithwaite along with Dewsbury and all the other stops when it was scheduled to stop.

It only stopped at Huddersfield, much to the frustration of the passengers wanting those stops that control had told it to pass through.

RTT is showing one cancelled service at Slaithwaite yesterday - the 18:15 towards Hull and that was cancelled between Manchester and Leeds due to a member of staff being unavailable. While RTT might have missed a service skipping Slaithwaite, it only shows 2 services all day which ran over 5 minutes late - one was 6 minutes late and the other was 7. This hardly seems to be the day of trains running 'ridiculously late' which you referred to in your original post.

Eric · 2 Jul 2018

Clearly you're looking at the wrong times. Why don't you look what was happening around Leeds from 12 noon onwards with Scarborough and Newcastle trains terminating short, and as I've mentioned late Hull and Manchesters missing stops.

jcollins said:
RTT is showing one cancelled service at Slaithwaite yesterday - the 18:15 towards Hull and that was cancelled between Manchester and Leeds due to a member of staff being unavailable. While RTT might have missed a service skipping Slaithwaite, it only shows 2 services all day which ran over 5 minutes late - one was 6 minutes late and the other was 7. This hardly seems to be the day of trains running 'ridiculously late' which you referred to in your original post.

Eric · 2 Jul 2018

I'm not saying it's the worst I've ever seen it, far from it, but it was chaotic with three car 185s full and standing room only in the sweltering heat.

pemma · 2 Jul 2018

Eric said:
Clearly you're looking at the wrong times. Why don't you look what was happening around Leeds from 12 noon onwards with Scarborough and Newcastle trains terminating short, and as I've mentioned late Hull and Manchesters missing stops.

Let's look back at what you said

Eric said:
Spoke to one of the TPE managers today (posted yesterday) after another frustrating day of delayed trains and trains missing out stations because they were ridiculously late.

So you're talking about services on Sunday 1st July

Eric said:
He also said TPE going after the ale trail profits and stopping at all stations between Piccadilly and Leeds was madness because the trains simply can't keep to the strict timetable.

Eric said:
The TPE manager was on one of the trains held up because they had a driver but no guard. The guard was stuck in Hull on a late running service. When the guard arrived 40 minutes late, control then made the train run fast missing out all the stations in between it was scheduled to stop.

Eric said:
But the train did miss out Slaithwaite along with Dewsbury and all the other stops when it was scheduled to stop.

It only stopped at Huddersfield, much to the frustration of the passengers wanting those stops that control had told it to pass through.

The sooner the stoppers go back to Northern the better.

So you clearly focusing on problems with the Hull services which call at the smaller stations like Slaithwaite, not the express services to Newcastle and Middlesbrough.

Here are all the services scheduled to call at Slaithwaite yesterday:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...01/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

I'll admit to making a mistake - I missed the late Manchester Airport to York is scheduled to call at Slaithwaite and that the train was 9 minutes late but despite that it didn't miss out any stations. Now it's your turn to explain why the train running information contradicts what you're saying happened - I'm not clearly looking at the wrong trains.

yorksrob · 2 Jul 2018

How about a mini-timetable change between now and the December one, to give planners enough time to work out some sensible adjustments but without losing the whole half year.

The Planner · 2 Jul 2018

Enough time? :lol:

87015 · 2 Jul 2018

yorksrob said:
How about a mini-timetable change between now and the December one, to give planners enough time to work out some sensible adjustments but without losing the whole half year.

Should TPE be interested and able to identify fixes, they can STP them. The last thing anyone can resource are more timetable changes and the uncertainty around what is happening because of the mess that some operators are now going to impose on everyone! it’s almost certainly going to be the opposite...

lejog · 2 Jul 2018

DarloRich said:
There is so much confusion and inaccurate comment on this thread it is humorous!

Now with added humour.

Wilts Wanderer · 2 Jul 2018

The sheer volume of data processing alone to roll back the timetable makes anything prior to December not even remotely viable.

Given that high-level discussions are currently underway regarding the December 2018 timetable change itself (effectively a go/no-go decision on a national basis) between DfT, Network Rail, all the TOCs and FOCs and probably the ORR to boot, and the primary national issue being a complete lack of timetabling resource within Network Rail, any attempt to make further jury-rigged changes to timetables in the short term can only make matters worse.

We are where we are, and currently the only option is to make the best of it. I recommend reading Modern Railways July edition, namely Railtalk and Alan Williams (who for once hits the nail firmly on the head.)

Eric · 3 Jul 2018

jcollins said:
Let's look back at what you said

So you're talking about services on Sunday 1st July

So you clearly focusing on problems with the Hull services which call at the smaller stations like Slaithwaite, not the express services to Newcastle and Middlesbrough.

Here are all the services scheduled to call at Slaithwaite yesterday:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...01/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt

I'll admit to making a mistake - I missed the late Manchester Airport to York is scheduled to call at Slaithwaite and that the train was 9 minutes late but despite that it didn't miss out any stations. Now it's your turn to explain why the train running information contradicts what you're saying happened - I'm not clearly looking at the wrong trains.

I never said I was on a Hull service. The train leaving Leeds was waiting for the guard of the Hull service to arrive and because it was late once the conductor arrived they said it was missing out all the intermediate stops.

I left that train and caught the Manchester Airport train which was about 6 minutes late leaving Leeds.

It was on this service where the TPE manager was and it was where he told me that someone high up has finally realised that the new timetables are simply just not working.

I don't understand why you're clearly defending TPE here?

It was a Sunday and because the conductor was late off another service due to a ridiculously tight turnaround, TPE decided to skip stations on what I assume but stand to be corrected is an hourly service on a Sunday.

I find it completely unacceptable on the train companies part.

pemma · 3 Jul 2018

Eric said:
I never said I was on a Hull service. The train leaving Leeds was waiting for the guard of the Hull service to arrive and because it was late once the conductor arrived they said it was missing out all the intermediate stops.

I left that train and caught the Manchester Airport train which was about 6 minutes late leaving Leeds.

It was on this service where the TPE manager was and it was where he told me that someone high up has finally realised that the new timetables are simply just not working.

I don't understand why you're clearly defending TPE here?

It was a Sunday and because the conductor was late off another service due to a ridiculously tight turnaround, TPE decided to skip stations on what I assume but stand to be corrected is an hourly service on a Sunday.

I find it completely unacceptable on the train companies part.

You said a service booked to call at Slaithwaite and Dewsbury missed out those stations but still called at Huddersfield. Yet there appears to be no services which actually did that. When I questioned this you claimed I was looking at the wrong trains. Perhaps you can confirm the exact service you were referring to? I've asked you already but you dodged the question.

From your previous posts in other threads it's obvious you don't like the new North TPE timetable.

I'm not defending TPE, I'm questioning your account. The fact that one of your claims seems to have been made up casts doubt over whether anything you've posted in this thread actually happened.

Reversing the New Timetables

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