Why should wiring Standedge tunnel be "difficult?"

AndrewE · 13 Jul 2018

We are told there might be an announcement on the trans-pennine infrastructure front soon, and that it will probably not be pleasant reading.

so (if relevant) we mustn't forget to insist on an answer to the question why they are pretending that Stanage tunnels would be "too difficult."
Strictly I suppose the answer to that question is that they don't want to pay for it, actually we want to know what it is that would make it so expensive.
Even with all our industry insiders here I don't think we have ever heard any suggestions.
The canal tunnel emergency escapes might add a complication, but you only have to link phones on the gates to a signal box and stop the trains in the adjacent bore if needed.

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jimm · 13 Jul 2018

Where on earth is Stanage?

Do you perhaps mean Standedge?

I doesn't matter what industry insiders might think of the practicalities. All that matters is what the DfT thinks and even if every MP in West Yorkshire and Greater Manchester stands up in Parliament and asks Mr Grayling for a reason, there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of getting a straight answer.

rich r · 13 Jul 2018

Stanage Edge is south of Sheffield, also the subject of some controversy relating to modifications to transport links (there's an old rocky track that used to be popular with offroaders, but a couple of years ago it was narrowed and flattened so only motorbikes, horses, cycles and pedestrians can use it despite it still having full legal road status for all vehicles).

Nothing to do with railways though.

55z · 13 Jul 2018

Wiring a tunnel is more difficult than open countryside and will result in prolonged closure in order to do the work, Severn Tunnel was closed for a period to put up the wires and again recently as they had rusted. Confined space, oxygen levels (diesel fumes etc) as well as to drill each wire support into the tunnel walls are just a few of the problems. There are only limited number of cross passages (emergency and acess routes) available now as the some of bridges across the canal were not maintained and they are narrow. Remember there are 8 tunnels between Leeds and Stalybridge. Only one bore has rail tracks in. In my view Grayling rail has the inability to make decisuions and take responsibilty. Just look at Manchester to Bolton electrification which is a Network Rail problem due to late completion and who owns Network Rail - the Dept of Transport and who is head of the Dept of T GRAYLING and the head person should take responsiblity but he wont but should.

twpsaesneg · 13 Jul 2018

AndrewE said:
We are told there might be an announcement on the trans-pennine infrastructure front soon, and that it will probably not be pleasant reading.

so (if relevant) we mustn't forget to insist on an answer to the question why they are pretending that Stanage tunnels would be "too difficult."
Strictly I suppose the answer to that question is that they don't want to pay for it, actually we want to know what it is that would make it so expensive.
Even with all our industry insiders here I don't think we have ever heard any suggestions.
The canal tunnel emergency escapes might add a complication, but you only have to link phones on the gates to a signal box and stop the trains in the adjacent bore if needed.

Tunnels are never easy to wire. I suspect conductor beam would be the most feasible option through Standedge, as the length would otherwise mean trying to install tensioning equipment inside the bores, which although has been done in the past isn't particularly cheap or easy to do, and also is difficult to maintain / adjust in the future.

Conductor beam is not by any stretch of the imagination cheap, requiring supports every 12-ish metres which would be about 420 separate supports per track for Standedge.

There may (probably will based on experience of other similar tunnels in the area) be a requirement to carry out a track lower through the tunnel, and this may cause issues both engineering (drainage) and possession time (you'd need a blockade of probably multiple months to do it).

So the difficulties are high cost, and long continuous periods of disruption whilst building.

yorksrob · 13 Jul 2018

I wonder if, temporarily it would be possible to lay a track through one of the adjacent tunnels in order to maintain a limited service through the area, with the remainder of trains diverted via Calder or Hope during the electrification works.

AndrewE · 13 Jul 2018

jimm said:
Where on earth is Stanage? Do you perhaps mean Standedge?

You are right of course, I've always pronounced both the Edge near Sheffield and the tunnel "Stanage.!

55z said:
Wiring a tunnel is more difficult than open countryside and will result in prolonged closure in order to do the work, Severn Tunnel was closed for a period to put up the wires and again recently as they had rusted. Confined space, oxygen levels (diesel fumes etc) as well as to drill each wire support into the tunnel walls are just a few of the problems. There are only limited number of cross passages (emergency and acess routes) available now as the some of bridges across the canal were not maintained and they are narrow. Remember there are 8 tunnels between Leeds and Stalybridge. Only one bore has rail tracks in. In my view Grayling rail has the inability to make decisuions and take responsibilty. Just look at Manchester to Bolton electrification which is a Network Rail problem due to late completion and who owns Network Rail - the Dept of Transport and who is head of the Dept of T GRAYLING and the head person should take responsiblity but he wont but should.

I'm afraid I disagree with almost all of your points, apart from the first half of the first one. I spent half my career planning and controlling work in confined spaces, especially track and OLE work in tunnels, and can assure you that wiring a tunnel is one of the lesser problems.
The fact that there are 2 unusedbores (which may be brought back into traffic) should make it a relatively easy job, as all can be wired physically isolated from the bores in which trains are running. I have actually walked the extra tunnels measuring exhaust gases when trains have been running so I know very well how much easier it will be than a similar job in a long narrow tunnel on a live line.

superkev · 13 Jul 2018

AndrewE said:
You are right of course, I've always pronounced both the Edge near Sheffield and the tunnel "Stanage.!

I'm afraid I disagree with almost all of your points, apart from the first half of the first one. I spent half my career planning and controlling work in confined spaces, especially track and OLE work in tunnels, and can assure you that wiring a tunnel is one of the lesser problems.
The fact that there are 2 unusedbores (which may be brought back into traffic) should make it a relatively easy job, as all can be wired physically isolated from the bores in which trains are running. I have actually walked the extra tunnels measuring exhaust gases when trains have been running so I know very well how much easier it will be than a similar job in a long narrow tunnel on a live line.

For interest one of the disused narrow bores and cross passages is used by the canal people who drive through to periodically check on barges using the canal tunnel.
K

AndrewE · 13 Jul 2018

yorksrob said:
I wonder if, temporarily it would be possible to lay a track through one of the adjacent tunnels in order to maintain a limited service through the area, with the remainder of trains diverted via Calder or Hope during the electrification works.

Given that the double track on the west side (the most difficult to resolve) will be a significant constraint to the timetable planning I was thinking that having as much 4-track as possible would minimise the problem. So quadruple everything that you possible can as far west as Diggle and try to plan the train service to fit into the 2 that survive from there to Stalybridge.

AndrewE · 13 Jul 2018

superkev said:
For interest one of the disused narrow bores and cross passages is used by the canal people who drive through to periodically check on barges using the canal tunnel.
K

That's unfortunate. They might also have to find a smarter way of working then.

yorksrob · 13 Jul 2018

AndrewE said:
Given that the double track on the west side (the most difficult to resolve) will be a significant constraint to the timetable planning I was thinking that having as much 4-track as possible would minimise the problem. So quadruple everything that you possible can as far west as Diggle and try to plan the train service to fit into the 2 that survive from there to Stalybridge.

Yes, admittedly mine would be more of a cheapo-temporary workaround, but if you wanted additional track for permanent use, you may want to build more oof it.

LNW-GW Joint · 13 Jul 2018

AndrewE said:
he fact that there are 2 unusedbores (which may be brought back into traffic) should make it a relatively easy job, as all can be wired physically isolated from the bores in which trains are running. I have actually walked the extra tunnels measuring exhaust gases when trains have been running so I know very well how much easier it will be than a similar job in a long narrow tunnel on a live line.

That suggests that wiring Morley tunnel (1m1609y, 75mph), without a second bore alongside, might actually be harder to do than Standedge (3m66y, 85mph).
Then there's Stalybridge tunnel at 668y (50mph).
I can't remember if Stalybridge tunnel was due for wiring under the original Victoria scheme (the grid feeder point is east of the tunnel).
The TP main route at least has a reasonable diversionary route via the Calder Valley and Wakefield, during the works period.
Meanwhile, the Cardiff-Rhymney line is being electrified apparently without wiring Caerphilly tunnel (1m181y, 50mph), for which a battery solution is being planned.

I know we are speculating on the TP electrification solution here, but we are still waiting to hear what the digital railway can do for the route.
No matter what signalling improvements are made, it always seems to me like a secondary route from the signalling point of view.

yorksrob · 13 Jul 2018

Personally I think that discussions about the trans-pennine route lack ambition. Given its importance, we should be considering it as we would a South Eastern commuter route, with electrification to enable ten to four carriage trains to run.

If you had four twelve carriage express trains an hour, two each from Liverpool and Manchester Airport, not only would you knock capacity out of the ball park, you could also split trains at Leeds and York to ensure that the Eastern branches all have a service to the airport, places such as Hull get two TPE trains an hour etc. You could also get a half hourly stopping service between the intermediate stations as well.

None of this is pie in the sky technology - it was being done in the fifties !

snowball · 13 Jul 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
I can't remember if Stalybridge tunnel was due for wiring under the original Victoria scheme

Either it wasn't, or if it was, it was deleted at an early stage and replaced by a feeder cable.

DY444 · 13 Jul 2018

It's basically just an excuse. Yes tunnels are more difficult than plain open line but they are not especially difficult per se. Viable solutions have been found for every tunnel on all of the electrified routes done previously and a viable solution exists for Standedge. The DfT just doesn't want to do it.

HSTEd · 13 Jul 2018

If there are unused bores, surely you would use those and abandon the existing tunnel?

That way there is not hot working whatsoever, and you only need a blockade to slew the tracks into the new bore once it's all done.

yorksrob · 13 Jul 2018

HSTEd said:
If there are unused bores, surely you would use those and abandon the existing tunnel?

That way there is not hot working whatsoever, and you only need a blockade to slew the tracks into the new bore once it's all done.

The unused bores are single, and presumably tighter than the current double track one, so would possibly be more difficult to electrify ?

Llanigraham · 13 Jul 2018

The bore that is used by CaRT regularly to check on all boats using the canal tunnel is much tighter than the current rail tunnel.

superkev · 13 Jul 2018

yorksrob said:
The unused bores are single, and presumably tighter than the current double track one, so would possibly be more difficult to electrify ?

I suppose it depends how big the single bores are
Non of the tunnels permit fast running due to the sharp curve at the Marsden end. Won't happen outside London and the south east but perhaps a new 140mph tunnel is needed.
K

HSTEd · 13 Jul 2018

Perhaps we should just hope NPR gives us a Shinkansen........
oh well

Elecman · 13 Jul 2018

yorksrob said:
The unused bores are single, and presumably tighter than the current double track one, so would possibly be more difficult to electrify ?

Time for Filly to come out of retirement

AndrewE · 13 Jul 2018

HSTEd said:
If there are unused bores, surely you would use those and abandon the existing tunnel?
That way there is not hot working whatsoever, and you only need a blockade to slew the tracks into the new bore once it's all done.

We are on the same wavelength, but more capacity is needed and as far west as possible. I would say reinstate the 2 single lines (electrified) and then electrify the currently-used double track bore after transferring trains to the other two.

urbophile · 13 Jul 2018

HSTEd said:
If there are unused bores, surely you would use those and abandon the existing tunnel?

Are you referring to Mr Grayling and his colleagues by any chance ?

gingertom · 13 Jul 2018

DY444 said:
It's basically just an excuse. Yes tunnels are more difficult than plain open line but they are not especially difficult per se. Viable solutions have been found for every tunnel on all of the electrified routes done previously and a viable solution exists for Standedge. The DfT just doesn't want to do it.

you've nailed it.

AndrewE · 13 Jul 2018

Llanigraham said:
The bore that is used by CaRT regularly to check on all boats using the canal tunnel is much tighter than the current rail tunnel.

It would be, being the single-track tunnel nearer the canal. Neither factor should stop it being electrified though.

AM9 · 13 Jul 2018

Llanigraham said:
The bore that is used by CaRT regularly to check on all boats using the canal tunnel is much tighter than the current rail tunnel.

Then why not lay temporary track in the single bores to vacate the twin tunnel allowing it to be wired without causing disruption, (save for the slewing before and after).

AndrewE · 13 Jul 2018

AM9 said:
Then why not lay temporary track in the single bores to vacate the twin tunnel allowing it to be wired without causing disruption, (save for the slewing before and after).

because we shall need all 4 tracks to accommodate the trains that we'll need to run? Agreed we relay and wire the single bores first, but then take a total possession on the double and wire those two tracks.

AM9 · 13 Jul 2018

AndrewE said:
because shall need all 4 tracks to accommodate the trains that we'll need to run? Agreed we relay and wire the single bores first, but then take a total possession on the double and wire those two tracks.

OK. I thought that as somebody suggested running 10-12-car trains, the traffic was manageable for some time ahead. In that case, the single bore tracks won't be temporary so the cost will go towards upgrading the route.

61653 HTAFC · 13 Jul 2018

The tunnel isn't the only issue with wiring the route: another tricky area is the houses just West of Mossley station which have quite small backyards/terraces very close to the line and at a particularly awkward height based on the height the contact wire would be at. It could still be wired (a neutral section could be a solution, if one can be placed that close to a station) but would be very awkward with regard to the railway's neighbours.

AndrewE · 13 Jul 2018

10 and 12-coach trains would be wonderful, and might even accommodate long-distance demand if they ran twice an hour splitting at the outer ends. However there is also the need for stoppers (and semi-fasts) both sides of and through the Pennines.

Why should wiring Standedge tunnel be "difficult?"

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