Doors closing long before departure

mallard · 6 Aug 2018

infobleep said:
It's no different to shops that say they close at 5. If you go in 5.55 they may not let you in. Your purpose maybe very quick though.

(I assume you mean 4:55). Sure, but minimum connection times can make the difference between getting a train and having to buy a (potentially very expensive) new ticket, not just the difference between picking up some groceries or not.

If you need to change trains at a station with a "5 minute" connection time and the incoming train arrives exactly 5 minutes before the departing one, you may have as little as 3 minutes to actually make the connection once you account for the time it takes for doors to be released/opened and closed/locked (with a "40 seconds before departure" policy). Try getting across, say, Gatwick Airport railway station (one of the largest with a "5 minute" connection time for many services) with a couple of bags of luggage in that time... Even if you could do it, could an elderly person or someone travelling with children manage it?

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infobleep · 6 Aug 2018

mallard said:
(I assume you mean 4:55). Sure, but minimum connection times can make the difference between getting a train and having to buy a (potentially very expensive) new ticket, not just the difference between picking up some groceries or not.

If you need to change trains at a station with a "5 minute" connection time and the incoming train arrives exactly 5 minutes before the departing one, you may have as little as 3 minutes to actually make the connection once you account for the time it takes for doors to be released/opened and closed/locked (with a "40 seconds before departure" policy). Try getting across, say, Gatwick Airport railway station (one of the largest with a "5 minute" connection time for many services) with a couple of bags of luggage in that time...

I agree with you there. Train companies don't want people run around their stations, yet if your train is late, that is just what one does.

To resolve this they will just increase the minimum connection time between trains though.
Edit: I should have said probably there.

Eddd · 6 Aug 2018

It's reasonable to exclude boarding time to help advertise a journey time that's competitive with alternatives. Airlines pad their advertised schedules with lengthy gate closing times and motorists must increase the journey times forecast by route planners to allow for essential vehicle checks and regular breaks.

Bletchleyite · 6 Aug 2018

Eddd said:
It's reasonable to exclude boarding time to help advertise a journey time that's competitive with alternatives. Airlines pad their advertised schedules with lengthy gate closing times and motorists must increase the journey times forecast by route planners to allow for essential vehicle checks and regular breaks.

2 minutes is neither here nor there in being competitive, but it is quite significant in deciding whether you've got time to grab a quick coffee or not. So I don't buy this.

etr221 · 7 Aug 2018

FelixtheCat said:
Honestly though, if the departure time is 16:25, then it is reasonable for people arriving on the platform at 16:24:59 to be left behind.

Yes - but on the other hand, for that train, it is also reasonable that they can arrive on the platform at 16:24:50, spend five seconds crossing the platform, and jump on the train at 16:24:55 - with the doors closing behind them (at 16:25:00)

As a passenger, my expectation is that 'departure' (public) time is (or should be) that by which I must be on the train - i.e. door closing time; and likewise 'arrival' time is when the doors open, and I can alight. (Yes, SWR, I'm thinking of you)

Eddd · 7 Aug 2018

Bletchleyite said:
2 minutes is neither here nor there in being competitive

I suppose not in practical terms for the individual.

I find it interesting if you have a group of people choosing between A and B based on a number of quantitative metrics. At some point, there must be a marginal change in one of those metrics that produces a real change in the numbers choosing each option and so the change becomes decisive. For each individual the change would probably be lost in the noise of other considerations and they wouldn't say 'I would have chosen option A if it were two minutes quicker', but nonetheless the effect on the population is real.

bb21 · 7 Aug 2018

etr221 said:
As a passenger, my expectation is that 'departure' (public) time is (or should be) that by which I must be on the train - i.e. door closing time; and likewise 'arrival' time is when the doors open, and I can alight. (Yes, SWR, I'm thinking of you)

I'm not quite sure what you mean.

No need to pick on any TOC. It is industry standard that "departure" time is wheel start and "arrival" time is wheel stop. Not very intuitive? Possibly. But if you have a problem with that, you need to take it up with Network Rail/ORR/DfT. The TOCs can't do anything about it. They are instructed to use these measures.

duffield · 7 Aug 2018

I think really the issue may be why, given that some departures *do* make use of the differences between GBTT and WTT times (e.g. some Cross country departures at New Street are advertised as xx17 but actually timetabled to leave at xx20), why is this not more widespread, particularly at origin stations for longer distance services? It means the train pretty much always gets away on time, and also that no passenger can complain that the doors were closed early. For example, why not advertise the xx34 services from St. Pancras to Nottingham as xx32, keeping the WTT time at xx34? Why do XC do it and EMT not?

FGW_DID · 7 Aug 2018

duffield said:
why not advertise the xx34 services from St. Pancras to Nottingham as xx32, keeping the WTT time at xx34? Why do XC do it and EMT not?

xx33: Abusive tweet to TOC as to why train hasn’t departed ‘on time’ as advertised. :rolleyes:

Sleeper · 7 Aug 2018

This thread began with a comment about SWR at Waterloo, which as we all know is an exceptionally large and busy station.

I wonder (as a layman) whether one of the key pinch-points is time occupying the route through the throat, i.e. from when the signaller commits the route (gives the green) to when the train is through the throat and running, and new routes can be set up? In other words, the moment a clear signal is displayed, it is critical that wheels are rolling within a very few seconds.

On that basis, you must practically either have a discrepancy between the public TT and the WTT, or you must close the doors early.

Even so, 30 seconds seems like enough, unless you have to factor in that every time some late passenger will hold the doors open.

Statto · 7 Aug 2018

It's impossible to implement this system at Euston, due to short turn around times VT have, tonight, realtime trains have, the 16.47 from Liverpool is due to arrive in platform 4 at 19.03, then is due to go back out to Liverpool as the 19.07 from platform 4, also the 17.30 from Birmingham arrives at platform 1 at 18.56, then due to go back out to Manchester at 19.00 from platform 1.

Esker-pades · 7 Aug 2018

Statto said:
It's impossible to implement this system at Euston, due to short turn around times VT have, tonight, realtime trains have, the 16.47 from Liverpool is due to arrive in platform 4 at 19.03, then is due to go back out to Liverpool as the 19.07 from platform 4, also the 17.30 from Birmingham arrives at platform 1 at 18.56, then due to go back out to Manchester at 19.00 from platform 1.

RTT is wrong in this case. VT trains simply cannot be turned around in 4 minutes. One has to get everyone off (which takes quite a long time with an 11 car Pendolino), clean the train, re-stock it, then board the passengers (which also takes a long time, especially with the manual ticket checks on the ramps down to the platforms). Platforms for inter-city trains, especially at busy termini need to be advertised at least 15 minutes before departure, otherwise the service will depart late. (I have experienced this a number of times at London Kings Cross.)

greyman42 · 7 Aug 2018

FelixtheCat said:
RTT is wrong in this case. VT trains simply cannot be turned around in 4 minutes. One has to get everyone off (which takes quite a long time with an 11 car Pendolino), clean the train, re-stock it, then board the passengers (which also takes a long time, especially with the manual ticket checks on the ramps down to the platforms). Platforms for inter-city trains, especially at busy termini need to be advertised at least 15 minutes before departure, otherwise the service will depart late. (I have experienced this a number of times at London Kings Cross.)

Why 15 minutes? I don't doubt what you say, I'm just interested to know. Is that the time it takes to fill a busy train?

185143 · 7 Aug 2018

Moonshot said:
Absolute rubbish, trains are scheduled to depart exactly on the time it says in timetable. Passengers are warned that doors will be closed 30 seconds before departure as a minimum. Come and work in the industry and you will see exactly why I m right.

Precisely.

The train DEPARTS (in theory) at, for example, 18:05. Not 'we stop letting you on at 18:05'

Stigy · 7 Aug 2018

Bletchleyite said:
It's the platform gate they close rather than the doors, and it's so everyone who passes through it has enough time to board without causing delay.

There aren’t any platform gates other than ticket barriers now at Waterloo unless I’m missing something? Pre-barriers they had the shutters, which I assume you’re referring to, but I’ve never known any gates to close prior to departure these days?

yorkie · 7 Aug 2018

FelixtheCat said:
RTT is wrong in this case. VT trains simply cannot be turned around in 4 minutes. One has to get everyone off (which takes quite a long time with an 11 car Pendolino), clean the train, re-stock it, then board the passengers (which also takes a long time, especially with the manual ticket checks on the ramps down to the platforms). Platforms for inter-city trains, especially at busy termini need to be advertised at least 15 minutes before departure, otherwise the service will depart late. (I have experienced this a number of times at London Kings Cross.)

On Sunday night at King's Cross my train departed 10 minutes after boarding commenced and it was a busy train.

I do not think it would be wise for sites like Realtimetrains to fudge the data in the way you are suggesting, or at least not to that extent; it would lead to people thinking they had more time to make the train than they actually had.

Esker-pades · 7 Aug 2018

greyman42 said:
Why 15 minutes? I don't doubt what you say, I'm just interested to know. Is that the time it takes to fill a busy train?

Intercity services have big difference in the seat:door ratio. Also, one has to take into account walking the length of an 11 car unit, people with massive bags, the length of time it takes to board when a lot of people have massive bags and walking from the departure boards to the train.

yorkie said:
On Sunday night at King's Cross my train departed 10 minutes after boarding commenced and it was a busy train.

I do not think it would be wise for sites like Realtimetrains to fudge the data in the way you are suggesting, or at least not to that extent; it would lead to people thinking they had more time to make the train than they actually had.

I've had various times where trains were advertised 5 minutes before departure and left 10 minutes late, most of which have been at King's Cross.

RTT gets platforms wrong. Virgin Trains services cannot turn around in 4 minutes. I wasn't suggesting that they fudge the data (I'm not entirely sure what that means), just that the data they have/display is realistically impossible.
As I understand some published timetables can have some inconsistencies/impossibilities when it comes to platforming at termini, which signallers just have to work around a bit.

yorkie · 7 Aug 2018

FelixtheCat said:
RTT gets platforms wrong. Virgin Trains services cannot turn around in 4 minutes. I wasn't suggesting that they fudge the data (I'm not entirely sure what that means), just that the data they have/display is realistically impossible.

I'm not trying to defend RTT here but all the open data sites (there are many others e.g. OpenTrainTimes) use the same data source.

It doesn't make sense to state that one of the open data sites is "wrong" if all they are doing is using the open data.

Now if you are suggesting the site can display more accurate information by doing something with that data (e.g by increasing estimated turnaround times) or if they are already manipulating the data in a way that other such sites are not, but are doing so in a way that isn't accurate, that's a different matter.

Esker-pades · 7 Aug 2018

yorkie said:
I'm not trying to defend RTT here but all the open data sites (there are many others e.g. OpenTrainTimes) use the same data source.

It doesn't make sense to state that one of the open data sites is "wrong" if all they are doing is using the open data.

Now if you are suggesting the site can display more accurate information by doing something with that data (e.g by increasing estimated turnaround times) or if they are already manipulating the data in a way that other such sites are not, but are doing so in a way that isn't accurate, that's a different matter.

Wrong in the sense that a 19:03 Virgin Trains arrival at London Euston cannot go to form a 19:07 service, as was suggested above in post #41. That conclusion can be reached because both services, according to RTT, use platform 4. In real life, the 19:03 arrival would most likely be put into another platform, rather than delayed for 6-7 minutes waiting for platform 4 to become available, after the 19:07 departs.

Skymonster · 7 Aug 2018

All this "we lock the doors 40 seconds before departure" is a load of nonsense. When were you last on a train where the doors were locked and then there was a 40 second wait before it moved off? Never I'll wager. For example, travelling on HSTs it is almost always possible to hear the door locks click and then a matter of one or two seconds later the train manager gives the driver the beeps - there is NEVER a 40 second pause. Likewise on smaller units like 15x - never a 40 second wait between doors locking and the driver being given the signal to proceed. So if this 40 second period is never used by the railway, why should passengers not be able to use it to board? Or do trains always leave early, because the doors are locked 40 seconds before departure and then the train moves off almost immediately?

bb21 · 7 Aug 2018

Perhaps the use of the word "close" is more accurate but I think we are getting unnecessarily bogged down by technicalities here.

Most people would understand what it is intended to say.

While I have sympathy for the view that the time advertised should be the last point a customer should be able to board, AIUI it can cause some scheduling issues to do with arrival/departure time conflicts, albeit in a limited set of circumstances only.

I think what is more important is a consistent and meaningful message across board, eg. posters at all stations showing "Don't leave it to the last minute" in eye-catching style with slightly smaller (but still obvious) fonts below explaining "If you arrive at the platform less than one minute before your train is scheduled to depart (2 minutes at major terminals*), you may not be able to board your chosen service as we need to ensure the dispatch process is given sufficient time to complete safely for the service's punctual departure." The asterisk can then show a list below that stating the major terminals.

Dispatch need not start until whatever time before departure internal guidance states, but the customer-facing message would then be consistent and more memorable rather than the current mish-mash of 30/40/45/60/120-second variations advertised.

Sleeper said:
Even so, 30 seconds seems like enough, unless you have to factor in that every time some late passenger will hold the doors open.

Almost. 30 seconds is very tight for some stock types. An extra check and/or not being super efficient on the day you'd have missed it.

35 would have been better, but that is an awkward number for anyone to take note of.

Esker-pades · 7 Aug 2018

Skymonster said:
All this "we lock the doors 40 seconds before departure" is a load of nonsense. When were you last on a train where the doors were locked and then there was a 40 second wait before it moved off? Never I'll wager. For example, travelling on HSTs it is almost always possible to hear the door locks click and then a matter of one or two seconds later the train manager gives the driver the beeps - there is NEVER a 40 second pause. Likewise on smaller units like 15x - never a 40 second wait between doors locking and the driver being given the signal to proceed. So if this 40 second period is never used by the railway, why should passengers not be able to use it to board? Or do trains always leave early, because the doors are locked 40 seconds before departure and then the train moves off almost immediately?

The word I've seen shoe-horned in, which is key to your complaint(?), is "advertised". IE: "Train doors may close up to 40 seconds prior to advertised departure."

Bromley boy · 7 Aug 2018

Skymonster said:
All this "we lock the doors 40 seconds before departure" is a load of nonsense. When were you last on a train where the doors were locked and then there was a 40 second wait before it moved off? Never I'll wager. For example, travelling on HSTs it is almost always possible to hear the door locks click and then a matter of one or two seconds later the train manager gives the driver the beeps - there is NEVER a 40 second pause. Likewise on smaller units like 15x - never a 40 second wait between doors locking and the driver being given the signal to proceed. So if this 40 second period is never used by the railway, why should passengers not be able to use it to board? Or do trains always leave early, because the doors are locked 40 seconds before departure and then the train moves off almost immediately?

My TOC now advertises that doors close 45 seconds before departure time. When running on time it is typical to close the doors 30 seconds before departure time (now moving to 45 seconds), with wheels turning around ten seconds after that. So, yes, technically leaving early.

It certainly wouldn’t make sense to close doors and then wait for the sake of it, in fact it could be dangerous to do so, with people attempting to board creating a PTI risk.

I suspect the Waterloo incident in the OP has more to it.

extendedpaul · 7 Aug 2018

mresh91 said:
What was the train service in question?

We still don't have this information. AFAIK it's fairly easy to check once we do.

FGW_DID · 7 Aug 2018

Skymonster said:
All this "we lock the doors 40 seconds before departure" is a load of nonsense. When were you last on a train where the doors were locked and then there was a 40 second wait before it moved off? Never I'll wager. For example, travelling on HSTs it is almost always possible to hear the door locks click and then a matter of one or two seconds later the train manager gives the driver the beeps - there is NEVER a 40 second pause. Likewise on smaller units like 15x - never a 40 second wait between doors locking and the driver being given the signal to proceed. So if this 40 second period is never used by the railway, why should passengers not be able to use it to board? Or do trains always leave early, because the doors are locked 40 seconds before departure and then the train moves off almost immediately?

Doors may close up to 40 seconds prior which is fair for slam door HST stock. From my experience of dispatching them:

40 seconds prior - if all doors are closed (not locked) dispatch process begins:

Assistant dispatchers (if any), give signal to Lead Dispatcher;
Lead Dispatcher gives first tip (station work complete) to Guard;
Guard acknowledges and engages CDL, CDL lights extinguish.
Train Safety Check carried out, is the PTI clear, is there anybody trapped in doors, trying to get out, are all the CDL lights out etc
Second tip (train safety check complete) given to Guard,
Guard acknowledges, Guard can then give two on the buzzer to the driver.
Driver acknowledges on the buzzer and can then do what is necessary for the train to start rolling, DRA, power, brakes, etc

All this time all parties concerned are checking the signal aspect or ‘off’ indicators, so yes 40 seconds is quite fair.

Bromley boy · 8 Aug 2018

FGW_DID said:
DRA

DRA is disengaged immediately the signal comes off (hopefully!).

Joe Paxton · 8 Aug 2018

FelixtheCat said:
Public departures often advertise trains departing earlier than the WTT suggests. The biggest variation I have seen is 3 minutes (advertised 06:20, WTT 06:23).

Honestly though, if the departure time is 16:25, then it is reasonable for people arriving on the platform at 16:24:59 to be left behind.

But not those arriving on the platform at say 16:23:59.

FGW_DID · 8 Aug 2018

(HST) Using the 40 second rule and the above 16.25 example:

Anybody arriving on the platform up to 16.24.19 will be able to board, no problem.
16.24.20 dispatch process starts - no boarding (if the TM is at a door other than the TGS they may allow you in there)

Anybody arriving on the platform at 16.24.59 will be more than likely be watching the HST roll out the platform and will be advised to stand clear!

Obviously in the real world, the demarcation may not be so precise and down to the split second depending on personnel!

tom1996 · 8 Aug 2018

IMO at the incident in question, SWR is running such an awful service at the moment (I have applied for delay repay for 30 mins+ every day for the last 5 working days), that they are keen to get things out ASAP just to avoid having to deal with claims even if this means leaving early. There seems no end to them trying to get services back in the 15 mins late interval... yesterday my train ran non-stop from Winchester to London instead of stopping at numerous stations (until it broke down in the middle of nowhere between Brookwood and Woking at speed). I have never heard of skipping stations on long distance services as far as I am aware, however I do realise it is the norm on commuter routes in SW London.

bb21 · 8 Aug 2018

tom1996 said:
that they are keen to get things out ASAP just to avoid having to deal with claims even if this means leaving early.

Absolutely ridiculous claim and completely incorrect.

As I said before, your claims can be verified very quickly if you can identify the train in question. Mistakes can happen, but to claim this is deliberate is defamatory.

Doors closing long before departure

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