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Crossrail timetable

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pacenotes

pacenotes

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Interesting path for the semi fast.

West Drayton, then Ealing Broadway and then Paddington. That's the first I have seen that.

I would have thought they would of picked H&H.
 
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plcd1

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That NR diagram is very interesting. Nice to see that it solves some of the past concerns like certain local trips in West London requiring a change of trains. Also noteworthy that Hanwell gets 6 tph in the peaks. There are still some local trips (West Drayton to Acton ML / Hanwell) requiring a change of trains but that looks no different to today and the future service pattern is more frequent.

Such a shame that there are no Shenfield line trains to points west of Paddington. Makes the service pretty unattractive to me. I understand the reasoning behind this given both the Shenfield and GWML routes have more than their fair share of service disruption issues and the obvious desire to not import performance risk from one region to another if possible. It also has the side effect of reducing the number of signalling system interfaces on each service group - Shenfield services have two, Abbey Wood services have two for Reading / three for Heathrow (I'm assuming here that GWML does not switch to ETCS in Dec 2019 but that the Heathrow tunnel will have done so).
 
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Ianno87

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plcd1 said:
Such a shame that there are no Shenfield line trains to points west of Paddington. Makes the service pretty unattractive to me. I understand the reasoning behind this given both the Shenfield and GWML routes have more than their fair share of service disruption issues and the obvious desire to not import performance risk from one region to another if possible. It also has the side effect of reducing the number of signalling system interfaces on each service group - Shenfield services have two, Abbey Wood services have two for Reading / three for Heathrow (I'm assuming here that GWML does not switch to ETCS in Dec 2019 but that the Heathrow tunnel will have done so).
Click to expand...

Being able to get off a Shenfield train at any station between Whitechapel and Padders, wait on the same platform for 150 seconds, then get the very next train, is still vastly more attractive compared to today.
 
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plcd1

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Ianno87 said:
Being able to get off a Shenfield train at any station between Whitechapel and Padders, wait on the same platform for 150 seconds, then get the very next train, is still vastly more attractive compared to today.
Click to expand...

I take your point but, to be honest, neither of us know what it will be like. As I have said before I don't see the 2019 timetable structure surviving the "court of public opinion" nor "comment from politicians". Once it becomes evident that people in east London (likely) won't have a direct fast-ish service to points west of Paddington there will be an outcry. I could write the Mayor's Questions on this topic right now. It will inevitably become an issue in the 2020 Mayoral election if any of the opposition candidates are even half awake.

Heading west to east is marginally less contentious as trains to Shenfield will be empty at Paddington so there's a chance of a seat. It is a complete unknown at this point how busy or not trains from Abbey Wood will be when they reach Whitechapel and how they will gain / lose passengers through the core. People with luggage or travelling in groups will not want to lose their chance of a seat and face more than half their journey standing up. I know I'm just throwing up hypotheses but we can take a fair stab at how the average punter will respond after all the years of being told they'd have easy cross London travel and then they find that's not exactly what some of them are getting.
 
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samuelmorris

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Just timed a Gidea Park ''clearout' dwell at 2m40. Not bad for a service termination but not sure if that'll be sufficient for the terminating services to work in the 2019 timetable...

As far as the changing trains argument is concerned, yes, but imagine using the central line today and having to get off and back on somewhere like Oxford Circus or Tottenham Court Road...
 
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ijmad

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samuelmorris said:
Just timed a Gidea Park ''clearout' dwell at 2m40. Not bad for a service termination but not sure if that'll be sufficient for the terminating services to work in the 2019 timetable...

As far as the changing trains argument is concerned, yes, but imagine using the central line today and having to get off and back on somewhere like Oxford Circus or Tottenham Court Road...
Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with the layout of Gidea Park, but will they have to fully tip out before reversing?
 
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Ianno87

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samuelmorris said:
Just timed a Gidea Park ''clearout' dwell at 2m40. Not bad for a service termination but not sure if that'll be sufficient for the terminating services to work in the 2019 timetable...

As far as the changing trains argument is concerned, yes, but imagine using the central line today and having to get off and back on somewhere like Oxford Circus or Tottenham Court Road...
Click to expand...

Except trains twice as long as on the Central Line, and huge 200+ metre platforms on which to do it.

Morning peak, going west. Stay on to Bond Street to change, by which time trains will have emptied out a fair amount.

Afternoon peak, going west. Change at Whitechapel, before the crowds join further in.
 
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hwl

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plcd1 said:
I take your point but, to be honest, neither of us know what it will be like. As I have said before I don't see the 2019 timetable structure surviving the "court of public opinion" nor "comment from politicians". Once it becomes evident that people in east London (likely) won't have a direct fast-ish service to points west of Paddington there will be an outcry. I could write the Mayor's Questions on this topic right now. It will inevitably become an issue in the 2020 Mayoral election if any of the opposition candidates are even half awake.

Heading west to east is marginally less contentious as trains to Shenfield will be empty at Paddington so there's a chance of a seat. It is a complete unknown at this point how busy or not trains from Abbey Wood will be when they reach Whitechapel and how they will gain / lose passengers through the core. People with luggage or travelling in groups will not want to lose their chance of a seat and face more than half their journey standing up. I know I'm just throwing up hypotheses but we can take a fair stab at how the average punter will respond after all the years of being told they'd have easy cross London travel and then they find that's not exactly what some of them are getting.
Click to expand...

Given Canary Wharf Groups donation who is going to pay to refund it to keep the "Court of East London Public opinion" happy?
Shenfield will get OOC services in 2026/7/8 when everything is extended to turn back at OOC instead.
I suspect the numbers will show that there aren't many Crossrail journeys across to the far side of Zone 1 except from West of Paddington to CW.
 
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si404

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Ianno87 said:
Except trains twice as long as on the Central Line, and huge 200+ metre platforms on which to do it.
Click to expand...
And walk through trains, which allows easier ability to find seats.
Afternoon peak, going west. Change at Whitechapel, before the crowds join further in.
Click to expand...
The westbound crowds will join east of Whitechapel in the afternoon!

It's genuinely hard to say where the place to join is in the pm peak. Because from-Wharf people will decrease, but to-West people will increase as you head west. Bond Street is too late and Whitechapel too early, but where the sweet spot in will need further investigation. I'd reckon either Farringdon or TCR judging by am peak crowding models.
 
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hwl

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si404 said:
And walk through trains, which allows easier ability to find seats.The westbound crowds will join east of Whitechapel in the afternoon!

It's genuinely hard to say where the place to join is in the pm peak. Because from-Wharf people will decrease, but to-West people will increase as you head west. Bond Street is too late and Whitechapel too early, but where the sweet spot in will need further investigation. I'd reckon either Farringdon or TCR judging by am peak crowding models.
Click to expand...
PM peak - Farringdon will see lots piling off to get on Northbound Thameslink instead of the current Jubilee flow from Canary Wharf to West Hampstead to change to Thameslink
 
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Not at all surprised by the article. Late running and slow moving freights on the GW reliefs will probably cause havoc with the Dec '19 timetable on the Reading/Heathrow - Abbey Wood branch. LR's usual posters seem a little mystified about the remaining off peak GWR service on the GW reliefs (Didcot-Paddington High Level). When the GW line to Oxford is eventually electrified, this will once again be a useful semi-fast service to Oxford.

From the end of the latest LR article -
Peak service pattern (not dissimilar to Network Rail's diagram from last year):

Crossrail-service-pattern-peak.png

Off peak:
The green dotted lines are the retained off-peak Didcot-Reading-Paddington High Level service.

A comment on the article suggest that there could be shoulder (or off) peak trains from Maidenhead/Heathrow - Shenfield (although they were actually quoting us lot).
Crossrail-service-pattern-offpeak.png
 
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cle

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All seems pretty good, although the West Drayton/Hayes fast swap is a little curious. I'd go for both (or add Hayes to the peak) - for connectivity. That said, I think it's a little slow out to Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford - but I'd expect more services in time.

Same story with Acton Mainline, which I think will really take off.

Does anyone smell a slight conspiracy with having all of the trains to Heathrow as stopping services? We'd expected skip-stopping and semi-fasts to provide quicker journeys from East and Central London, but these seem more geared to local West London traffic (admittedly a larger generator of daily airport travel!)
 
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cle said:
All seems pretty good, although the West Drayton/Hayes fast swap is a little curious. I'd go for both (or add Hayes to the peak) - for connectivity. That said, I think it's a little slow out to Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford - but I'd expect more services in time.

Same story with Acton Mainline, which I think will really take off.

Does anyone smell a slight conspiracy with having all of the trains to Heathrow as stopping services? We'd expected skip-stopping and semi-fasts to provide quicker journeys from East and Central London, but these seem more geared to local West London traffic (admittedly a larger generator of daily airport travel!)
Click to expand...
Worth noting that GWR is expected to run a half hourly peak service on the main lines from Paddington High Level calling at Maidenhead, Twyford and Reading.

Acton Main Line might not last long when Old Oak Common opens, especially with adjoining platforms for the London Overground (North London Lines) within walking distance.
 
ijmad

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Currently a 7 minute journey is shown from Heathrow Central to Heathrow T4 with today's services, and it's 4tph, but this is 2tph from Paddington and 2tph of Heathrow T4 shuttle.

With all four trains coming from the Crossrail core and making local stops, definitely seems like there will be more potential for picking up delays.

More potential issues squeezing the service down the single track section between Heathrow Central and Heathrow T4?

Wonder if this might cause any reliability problems.
 
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si404

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Heathrow Terminal 4 is the most likely station to be dropped (or reduced to a shuttle) - for exactly the reasons ijmad mentions about reliability, plus airport development proposals and BA wanting Elizabeth line trains serving its terminal - hence the move of the West Drayton's to terminate at Terminal 5 instead.

Acton Main Line won't close. Old Oak Common is too far away from Acton Main Line (over 1km, and the Scrubs Lane entrance is as far as the crow flies from AML as Ealing Broadway at 1.5 miles) to close it (especially as there's the severance of the A40) - it has a catchment of it's own that OOC will barely impinge on. And there are zero official plans for Overground platforms at OOC station itself (annoyingly) - the stations on the Overground (Old Oak Common Lane, Old Oak Common Victoria Road, and Hythe Road if they resurrect it) serve the development, but are a walk from the Liz/GWML/HS2/possibly-Chiltern station. The ones still on the cards are probably closer to North Acton station than the Elizabeth line at OOC (as those platforms are nearer the western end of the site).
 
ijmad

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si404 said:
Heathrow Terminal 4 is the most likely station to be dropped (or reduced to a shuttle) - for exactly the reasons ijmad mentions about reliability, plus airport development proposals and BA wanting Elizabeth line trains serving its terminal - hence the move of the West Drayton's to terminate at Terminal 5 instead.
Click to expand...

I can't figure out from the line diagram at http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/ whether it's possible to short turn a train bound for T4 in the junction just south of Heathrow Central. Hopefully it is?
 
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Ianno87

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ijmad said:
I can't figure out from the line diagram at http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/ whether it's possible to short turn a train bound for T4 in the junction just south of Heathrow Central. Hopefully it is?
Click to expand...

I do believe the signalling is set up to allow that. If you can tip the T4 bound punters off at CTA with reasonable efficiency of course.

Also got Hayes bay platform in extremis too (though that won't be popular)
 
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si404

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ijmad said:
I can't figure out from the line diagram at http://carto.metro.free.fr/metro-london/ whether it's possible to short turn a train bound for T4 in the junction just south of Heathrow Central. Hopefully it is?
Click to expand...
Well it would be a bit awkward to do the current set up if not!

Currently, as has been the case since T5 opened, the 'Connect' (now TfL Rail) trains run Paddington-T4-Central-T4-Paddington, giving 2tph to Paddington, and 2tph shuttle.

Of course, it would be more difficult to turn 4tph at Heathrow Central with 10-12tph also serving the station than turning 2tph with 6 other trains each hour. However the Heathrow rebuild was looking at rebuilding that Central station, and certainly it would give the opportunity to add rail infrastructure there if desired. Closure of Terminal 4 station (at least the non-tube one) is more likely than a shuttle if Terminal 4 is basically replaced with gates between the two runways, but they might want a shuttle given most of the infrastructure is there, and that southern edge of the airport site will still have stuff people would want to travel to, even if most are workers.
 
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Fred26

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Does anyone know if Greater Anglia will continue to serve Brentwood, Harold Wood, Gidea Park, and Romford with Southend services on Sundays once Crossrail starts?
 
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Fred26

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Thanks for the replies.
While I'm at it, does anyone know if the Southend Sunday service increases when the weekday service (and Saturday?) goes from 3tph to 4tph?
 
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700007

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Fred26 said:
Thanks for the replies.
While I'm at it, does anyone know if the Southend Sunday service increases when the weekday service (and Saturday?) goes from 3tph to 4tph?
Click to expand...
Nothing has been said I don't think but I can't see why a 2 to 3tph frequency increase wouldn't happen? If they want to compete with c2c particularly during the summer months, I imagine this would help.

Greater Anglia on a rail optimisation basis at their own discretion launch a bid to stop at any additional station Romford to Shenfield voluntarily if they think it picks up good revenue after the new timetable is introduced.
 
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