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Birmingham New Street pollution

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GRALISTAIR

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It could be a way for Failing Grayling to save face. Sorry cancelled MML, Windermere etc. We need to spend money on electrifying bits out of city center stations. All lines out of New Street will be electrified to at least as far as the next station and we can run my favorite new toy aka Bi-modes to get rid of fumes because I want all your lovely votes and I am doing something about fumes and the environment.
 
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Elecman

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It could be a way for Failing Grayling to save face. Sorry cancelled MML, Windermere etc. We need to spend money on electrifying bits out of city center stations. All lines out of New Street will be electrified to at least as far as the next station and we can run my favorite new toy aka Bi-modes to get rid of fumes because I want all your lovely votes and I am doing something about fumes and the environment.
About right, but I reckon Windermere will be back on to try and wrestle thecseat from LibDem
 

diffident

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Fumes at Birmingham New Street are one thing, and I personally don't think they are too bad. Obviously, it isn't advisable to stand around in carcinogens of any form for extended periods of time.

I've been to far worse indoor bus and coach stations in this country which produce a much worse result when numerous buses and coaches of differing vintage are all chugging away at any one time!
 

Taunton

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Single track so simple thin masts and small SPS no need for TGBU or lattice masts
That's not going to stop the Series One sales team from going out to convince everyone that theirs is the product to go for.
 

Mikey C

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It could be a way for Failing Grayling to save face. Sorry cancelled MML, Windermere etc. We need to spend money on electrifying bits out of city center stations. All lines out of New Street will be electrified to at least as far as the next station and we can run my favorite new toy aka Bi-modes to get rid of fumes because I want all your lovely votes and I am doing something about fumes and the environment.

It doesn't stop it being the right things to do though, especially for cross country services which by their nature will be running over non electrified track in some parts of the country for a long time even if we still had a rolling electrification programme. Localised pollution black spots in places like New Street are a genuine health concern

Fumes at Birmingham New Street are one thing, and I personally don't think they are too bad. Obviously, it isn't advisable to stand around in carcinogens of any form for extended periods of time.

I've been to far worse indoor bus and coach stations in this country which produce a much worse result when numerous buses and coaches of differing vintage are all chugging away at any one time!

Not for much longer though, the days of clapped out buses and coaches belching out fumes are surely limited as all diesel road vehicles face more stringent rules, especially in big cities.
 

GRALISTAIR

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It doesn't stop it being the right things to do though, especially for cross country services which by their nature will be running over non electrified track in some parts of the country for a long time even if we still had a rolling electrification programme. Localised pollution black spots in places like New Street are a genuine health concern.

Sounds like we are in absolute 100% agreement then. Good.
 

Bletchleyite

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The problem with bi-modes that I can see is will a Cross country driver bother to raise the pantograph if running in and out of New Street on non electrified lines? eg from Derby to go south via Solihull?

It could be done automatically by balises. But if we reached the fortunate point where diesels could be banned from New St outright, then the answer is "yes, he would, unless he wants the sack".
 

Sheddyone

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The only WMR diesels will be the Worcester services. Virgin do run a few Voyagers through New Street.[

And the ATW services. And the WMR Shrewsbury services. I also suspect bi-modes will not replace the Turbostar XC services, so there will still be a lot of DMUs through New Street.
 

MML

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Rather than expensive and long-term re-equipage, installation of more super dooper extractor systems, why can't the incoming drivers just turn the diesel engines off. Is it a case of no lighting and air conditioning without them on or is it a concern they won't restart and will block the platform ?
 

richieb1971

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I have only been to Birmingham New Street (BHM) once recently and that was 2 Xmas's ago. An Arriva DMU parked up and was left on and filled the air with a diesel smell. I wouldn't say it was horrible horrible but it just about borderline ok. If another train pulled in doing the same thing it would have been too much. This was a Sunday so I imagine it was quieter than usual. I believe the station was recently transformed prior to my visit.

So to put things into context -

BHM has always been underground?
Steam engines no doubt filled the whole station with an all manner of air born particles?
This is just a recent thing because of H&S pushing?

My first visit to BHM was in 1983. I remember 47's, a 46, 45's.. quite a lot of engines really. So this issue is with DMU's because the engines are under the train?
 
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DavidGrain

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I have only been to BNS once recently and that was 2 Xmas's ago. An Arriva DMU parked up and was left on and filled the air with a diesel smell. I wouldn't say it was horrible horrible but it just about borderline ok. If another train pulled in doing the same thing it would have been too much. This was a Sunday so I imagine it was quieter than usual. I believe the station was recently transformed prior to my visit.

So to put things into context -

BNS has always been underground?
Steam engines no doubt filled the whole station with an all manner of air born particles?
This is just a recent thing because of H&S pushing?

My first visit to BNS was in 1983. I remember 47's, a 46, 45's.. quite a lot of engines really. So this issue is with DMU's because the engines are under the train?

As one who remembers as a boy the pre 1960s New Street, I can reply to the questions

We did not think of New Street as an underground station until the new regulations came into effect following the Kings Cross fire. However it was below street level and it had buildings above it so it came within the definition of an underground station.

The present station at platform level is a result of the rebuilding following the WCML electrification. The recent rebuilding a few years ago did not really affect the the track layout and the facilities at platform level except for tidying them up. The main cost was in the passenger circulation above the platforms. Prior to the 1960s rebuild the station was really still two separate stations, the LNWR station and the adjacent Midland station. Each of these two stations had their own train sheds with high roofs, although the LNWR side lost its glass during the war which was never replaced. So there was much more fresh air circulating (if you could call it fresh before the Clean Air laws came into effect). The ceilings of the station since the 1960s are of course much lower than the high train sheds of the past.

Loco hauled diesel trains would mainly have their locos at the ends of the platforms which were open to the sky. DMUs on the other hand have engines distributed along the length of the train so will be producing fumes all along the platform.
 

HowardGWR

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You could not call New St an underground station before the first rebuilding by any stretch of the imagination. It was very open, with the North side buildings forming an ugly old 'cliff face' after the overall roof disappeared. It was less 'underground' in feeling, than a station like Euston was.
 

DavidGrain

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Showing the carriage numbers on the platforms does not work. I have travelled several times between Birmingham and London on Virgin and previously BR trains which have been the wrong way round. XC Voyagers can come in either way round depending on where they reverse. Not all Manchester -South West trains use the Camp Hill Line through Birmingham so those that don't reverse in New Street.
 

Bletchleyite

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Showing the carriage numbers on the platforms does not work. I have travelled several times between Birmingham and London on Virgin and previously BR trains which have been the wrong way round. XC Voyagers can come in either way round depending on where they reverse. Not all Manchester -South West trains use the Camp Hill Line through Birmingham so those that don't reverse in New Street.

It's not exactly rocket science to report an out of course formation and enter it on the PIS. VTWC manage it almost everywhere *except* New St, which is and continues to be a shambles.
 

JonasB

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CrossCountry will have signed up to pay lease rental on its Voyagers and HSTs up to the end of the current franchise, which is close enough that even if a replacement was to be ordered tomorrow it wouldn't come into service until after the new franchise started. The new franchise is in the course of being let and it is quite possible that bidders will offer to replace some or all of the fleet with bi-modes. As well as environmental benefits there should be a saving in running costs if trains can use electric power between Birmingham and Manchester and north of Doncaster or York. If leasing costs for new trains remain relatively low (as they must be for Anglia and SWR to commit to replace relatively modern fleets) then it's quite possible that a case will be made for total fleet repalcement on XC.

Thanks for the explanation!
 

vlad

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It's not exactly rocket science to report an out of course formation and enter it on the PIS. VTWC manage it almost everywhere *except* New St, which is and continues to be a shambles.

XC don't manage it. From personal experience if it says "first class at the front" then there's a 50/50 chance it won't be, which is annoying if you've got reservations in coach F.
 

kevjs

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Not for much longer though, the days of clapped out buses and coaches belching out fumes are surely limited as all diesel road vehicles face more stringent rules, especially in big cities.

Those days certainly are limited - by next Autumn Nottingham's principle bus operator (NCT) will have 90% of it's fleet being low emission (Euro VI or BioGas), the Subsided Service operator (CT4N) is already nearly all electric (PDF), All Taxis and Minicabs need to be Euro VI by 2025 and ULEV by 2030 (with all newly licensed vehicles ULEV from 2025). These aren't even used, much, in confined spaces and it's going to leave the railway as being the biggest public transport polluter in the city, and it's been like this since at least 2001 where the buses operating in the city have been required to have newer and less polluting engines as time goes on "Euro 5" or better at the moment I think.
 

Mikey C

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Those days certainly are limited - by next Autumn Nottingham's principle bus operator (NCT) will have 90% of it's fleet being low emission (Euro VI or BioGas), the Subsided Service operator (CT4N) is already nearly all electric (PDF), All Taxis and Minicabs need to be Euro VI by 2025 and ULEV by 2030 (with all newly licensed vehicles ULEV from 2025). These aren't even used, much, in confined spaces and it's going to leave the railway as being the biggest public transport polluter in the city, and it's been like this since at least 2001 where the buses operating in the city have been required to have newer and less polluting engines as time goes on "Euro 5" or better at the moment I think.

That's interesting thanks and impressive, and makes the continuing use of diesel trains into Nottingham station even more anachronistic

Nottingham has always struck me as being quite progressive as far as public transport is concerned, how does its policies compare with say Derby or Leicester?
 

kevjs

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That's interesting thanks and impressive, and makes the continuing use of diesel trains into Nottingham station even more anachronistic

Nottingham has always struck me as being quite progressive as far as public transport is concerned, how does its policies compare with say Derby or Leicester?
Honestly I don't know how it compares, I do know Leicester have pulled down a few fly overs and been building a decent amount of cycle infra, where as Derby have been completing their ring road (as far as the City of Nottingham is concerned the Ring Road is complete, the missing bit being outside the city's area of control). The City Council retained significant ownership of the main bus operator (75% of NCT, rest is Transdev) where as Leicester and Derby's have ended up as part of Arriva and that coupled with the city having the lowest level of car ownership outside London and parts of Manchester (partly down to the city boundaries basically being the inner city) have meant that, for city residents, Public Transport investment is a vote winner and something they've been investing loads in, they are keen on cycle infra but need the funding to do what they want (something Leicester managed to get from central government IIRC, while it's been left to D2N2 and EURDF in Nottingham)
 

Geezertronic

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I don't personally understand why the Voyager engines have to chuck out so much crap if they are essentially a generator (DEMU) in layman terms. When the professional generators provide electricity at outdoor events, you don't usually see or smell a lot of pollution and there's barely any noise as they just hum away in the background. If the Voyagers work on a similar vein then why so much pollution? They should just resurrect the eVoyager idea and make it more cost effective. Is that an over-simplification?
 

bengley

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I can only speak for 185s as they're the only diesel traction I sign, but if you stop all of the engines, the train will run out of battery and will be a failure in anything as little as 20 minutes. If you are shutting the engines down you must also switch off the train's batteries - which means no passengers on board until the train has been restarted and brake tests carried out. In many occasions this isn't feasible, so an engine is left running on the unit. If other diesel traction is the same, this will be why engines are not shut down.
 

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TwistedMentat

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I wonder if it's worth putting up lines and pantographs but only have them used when the train is stopped to provide power. That way you can go with a very simple pantograph and centenary while having a quick win of getting trains to stop their engines. You could even have the power at a lower and safer voltage if you don't need to power traction motors.
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder if it's worth putting up lines and pantographs but only have them used when the train is stopped to provide power. That way you can go with a very simple pantograph and centenary while having a quick win of getting trains to stop their engines. You could even have the power at a lower and safer voltage if you don't need to power traction motors.

New St is already electrified. Just requires pantographs and transformers on the trains.

Interestingly, German restaurant cars often have pantographs for when the train doesn't have a loco or when the loco doesn't do ETH.
 

Bletchleyite

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I can only speak for 185s as they're the only diesel traction I sign, but if you stop all of the engines, the train will run out of battery and will be a failure in anything as little as 20 minutes. If you are shutting the engines down you must also switch off the train's batteries - which means no passengers on board until the train has been restarted and brake tests carried out. In many occasions this isn't feasible, so an engine is left running on the unit. If other diesel traction is the same, this will be why engines are not shut down.

Well, that's a lousy piece of design, isn't it? All the more surprising from a country where DMU and locomotive engines are always shut down at termini near enough immediately the train arrives, and have been for years.
 

bengley

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Well, that's a lousy piece of design, isn't it? All the more surprising from a country where DMU and locomotive engines are always shut down at termini near enough immediately the train arrives, and have been for years.
I think the batteries would have been good enough for an hour or two when new, but at 12 years old, they're much lower on capacity.
 
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