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Why are French trains so poor?

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CMS

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I would say the main difference is politics - the SNCF is seen in France as an integral part of the 'service public'. This changes the approach to delivering the railway and public perception of this is more important than many other European countries, particularly the UK. You'll only have to look at the redevelopment plans of Paris Nord. It's desperately needed in terms of capacity, ensuring the station is ready for Brexit-necessary queuing/arrival procedures and it seems to aim for a hint of St Pancras, but there is outrage in the media and amongst rail unions/locals as it's seen to 'privatise' the station, given Auchan's involvement. I cannot remember a similar UK station redevelopment being so contentious.

A few examples also demonstrate this balance of power - the numerous TGV stations in the middle of nowhere so that politicians can say they are 'on the TGV network', the solitary TGV return trip to/from Le Havre despite the fact it takes longer than changing from a Gare de Lyon TGV, crossing Paris on the métro and taking a regional train from St Lazare and its poor reliability just so the region receives TGV traffic despite the operational impact it has, the disparity of TER services on the border of regions as each region has the power to prioritse its own interests etc.

I agree with the comments that high-speed long-distance seems to be the priority (even if that's not actually true) and the centralised nature of France means that Paris is a focus - Bordeaux to Lyon is quickest via Massy for example. But I wouldn't say that clockface timetables and the need to have regular intervals and stopping patterns to 'draw in passengers' is necessary - France just does not work like that, on some lines morning peak, lunchtime, 4pm-7pm and a late night train will do. On Sundays, most non-leisure businesses are closed and supermarkets even in big cities only open for 3 hours or so unlike many countries where Sunday has become just as busy as Saturday (the big exception to this is TGV where there is a definite peak on Sunday evenings). Look at the recent 3 months of striking, another network would have ground to a halt, SNCF put on what it could and the public got a decent service considering events. Largely, the SNCF is just 'very French' and because that may not fit the perceived success of the very different UK, NL or Swiss networks, it should not be written off as poor overall.

Whilst the French network is miles ahead in operational and technical advancements - their trains are generally excellent machines, LGVs are well engineered etc, I would say the overall passenger experience is poorer than its neighbouring networks. Stations in France are very often run down and have incoherent signage, the numbering of platforms follows the operational numbering and not something which would make sense to customers - Strasbourg, Lille Europe, Rouen come to mind and step-free access is often a clear after-thought. Timetables are very hard to get/read unless you are a regular TER user and know how to negotiate them, journey planners shouldn't replace timetables as they have for TGV. Brand names are not clear (Paris suburbs - trains on RER C referred to as RER on signage, Transilien Ligne C on onboard posters and station literature, 'train' in announcements?) and what is TGV inOUI? Surely just newer TGVs and a few rip-off extras that all TGVs will eventually have? And cleanliness and train presentation is generally poor. 1st class is also not worth shouting about despite cheaper fares.

SNCF of course is changing and a significant part of its portfolio does come from private companies it runs in France and abroad, such as Keolis companies - perhaps they ought to remind the French public of this more often. It will be interesting to see how the opening of the rail market in France turns out, personally I think it's a good thing and if it seems to have grown the market like the coach industry has done in France and similar rail examples in Italy and Germany, it's worth a try. Overall I would reiterate that whilst the passenger experience is relatively poor, the overall state of affairs isn't - it's just very French... spend a few months in France and you'll get it, it does work!
 
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NicholasNCE

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I think the correct translation of "non-conventionné" is "not subject to agreement/convention (with other bodies)". It is not obligatory that they are/will be subsidised and likewise we are told that some TGV routes are actually loss-making (hence subsidised) and may stay that way.


All conventionné services, ie. TER, TET (marketed as Intercités) and Transilien/RER are subsidised by the relevant public authority.

There are no longer any "conventionné" TGVs, the Brive - Lille service used to be, but it was withdrawn in 2016. Some individual TGV services are of course loss-making, in this case, as with any commercial operation, SNCF Mobilités covers the losses. Though if they last any time the services tends to be withdrawn, hence the never-ending TGV timetable changes in France.
 

daikilo

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One question to which I have not heard an answer is whether the "open access" trains could operate partly off the TGV (and of course LGV) network and potentially compete for traffic with TETs. On French media I have only heard Italo and their business model cited.
 

NicholasNCE

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One question to which I have not heard an answer is whether the "open access" trains could operate partly off the TGV (and of course LGV) network and potentially compete for traffic with TETs. On French media I have only heard Italo and their business model cited.

No reason why not, technically there is no distinction between LGVs and conventional lines, they are all part of the RFN (Réseau Ferré National) and subject to the same T&Cs as defined in SNCF Réseau's network statement (available in English here: https://www.sncf-reseau.fr/en/rail-network-access/toolbox/national-rail-network-statement ).
 

daikilo

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It will also be interesting to see if the "open access" proposals need to meet a "non-abstractive" clause as in the UK. Indeed, I am not sure that clause actually meets EU intent.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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One question to which I have not heard an answer is whether the "open access" trains could operate partly off the TGV (and of course LGV) network and potentially compete for traffic with TETs. On French media I have only heard Italo and their business model cited.

Italo is of course part-owned by SNCF (20%).
The French competition authorities might have something to say about that.

The Railway Gazette piece also says that the French government is writing off €35 billion of SNCF's €47 billion debt, to make in "more competitive".
We still have to face up to a similar size of debt for Network Rail.
 

daikilo

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Italo is of course part-owned by SNCF (20%).
The French competition authorities might have something to say about that.

The Railway Gazette piece also says that the French government is writing off €35 billion of SNCF's €47 billion debt, to make in "more competitive".
We still have to face up to a similar size of debt for Network Rail.

I think Italo is now owned by a US hedge fund and maybe a few bosses, SNCF left.

I guess writing off debt reduces interest payments, isn't that state aid?
 

yorksrob

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I say "good for France" for resisting the tide of privatisation and commercialisation. I'm sure if the French were desperate for something to be done differently, they'd shout about it. Each to their own.
 

NicholasNCE

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Worth mentioning there is no longer one SNCF, but three: SNCF Mobilités, the incumbent TOC; SNCF Réseau, the infrastructure manager; and La SNCF (often referred to as "EPIC de tête"), the "holding" company which is in charge of HR, strategy, etc... I put holding in brackets as all three companies are directly owned by the French state, meaning there are no capitalistic links between the three companies.

The french state is taking on part of the debt of SNCF Réseau, which is far to be big for the company to cope with on its whilst also upgrading and renewing the network. Much of this debt dates back to the construction of the high-speed network and costs millions in interest payments each year. A quite similar situation to NR really...

Concerning Italo (NTV), SNCF Mobilités briefly held 20% at the launch but it was quickly diluted down to below 1% following a capital increase a few years back. And as daikilo pointed out, the whole company was bought by Global Infrastructure Partners for close to € 2bn back in February, a great success story of private high speed rail!
 

TRAX

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About time we changed the name of the thread to something a bit more neutral aye ... let’s make it a general topic about french railways.
 

yorksrob

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About time we changed the name of the thread to something a bit more neutral aye ... let’s make it a general topic about french railways.

That's a fair point. In the interest of entente cordiale !
 

yorksrob

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I think one can criticise in a diplomatic, yet focussed way. Suggesting French trains in general are poor seems a bit harsh.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Look at the recent 3 months of striking, another network would have ground to a halt, SNCF put on what it could and the public got a decent service considering events.

Don't forget the French have a "minimum service level" law for rail strikes; a 30% service is required to operate - I suspect that's an overall total rather than an "on each line" requirement as some lines end up with no service at all while others - particularly the Transilien banlieue in Paris - get around 50%. They also seem to concentrate those that do run into the morning and evening peaks which seems a very logical way of organising things in the circumstances. Plus, in the recent strikes RATP were not affected so the Metro, trams and the RATP half of the RER all ran normally anyway.
 

TRAX

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We, as a forum, are happy to criticise our own railways when necessary. I don't see why foreign railways should be exempt.

It’s just that this discussion has gone to talk about french railways in general rather than only attempting to answer the original question.
 

CMS

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Don't forget the French have a "minimum service level" law for rail strikes; a 30% service is required to operate - I suspect that's an overall total rather than an "on each line" requirement as some lines end up with no service at all while others - particularly the Transilien banlieue in Paris - get around 50%. They also seem to concentrate those that do run into the morning and evening peaks which seems a very logical way of organising things in the circumstances. Plus, in the recent strikes RATP were not affected so the Metro, trams and the RATP half of the RER all ran normally anyway.
I agree with your point, it could have been worse and it was generally very logical as you say but the 'minimum service' law is not quite what you've said. The idea of it is to provide the public with the best possible 'minimum service' (i.e. good information, a provisional timetable, notices in the media etc) it's not 'you must run X percent of trains on X route' as you imply. Although some jobs in France do have that type of legal restriction (mostly in healthcare, armed forces etc), SNCF cannot obligate staff to work and even though colleagues who are on strike need to give 48hrs notice, they have the right to change their minds. In addition, the law means that it is illegal for SNCF to 'hire in' agency staff to cover striking cheminots - they must use existing non-striking colleagues or contractors to fill in the gaps meaning that it is nearly impossible to commit to an operational quota of trains.

However, there is a significant contract between SNCF and the Ile-de-France region, which means that SNCF must pay them financial compensation if the average number of trains on a strike day is fewer than 1 in 3, which is then used to refund impacted customers. This is why as you mention, Paris always does quite well - SNCF does not want to anger IdF obviously. In theory, regions can reach similar agreements around TER services.

Belgium introduced in November, exactly what you mentioned - a law which means 30% (although this exact figure is not in the law, but is what SNCB have respected and what it's understood to be) is required to operate, which is an overall figure and can mean some stations/routes get 80% and others 0%. There has been some pushback from rail unions and SNCB has restructured internally so that staff come under fewer different umbrellas, but it has been nowhere near as contentious as the current rail reforms in France.
 

duesselmartin

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I think one can criticise in a diplomatic, yet focussed way. Suggesting French trains in general are poor seems a bit harsh.

Not sure it is. Of the TGV network services are infrequent. Some argue it is good around the Ile de France or Cote Azur, but considering the size of the metropolitan region it is not that great either.
Mind you it seems cheaper than the german eqivilant with around 7 euros from Nice Airport to Ventimiglia.
 

yorksrob

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Not sure it is. Of the TGV network services are infrequent. Some argue it is good around the Ile de France or Cote Azur, but considering the size of the metropolitan region it is not that great either.
Mind you it seems cheaper than the german eqivilant with around 7 euros from Nice Airport to Ventimiglia.

We have a phrase in England "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". I don't feel that we are in a position of enough strength in terms of the management of the railway in this country to go around levelling blanket criticisms elsewhere.
 

daikilo

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We have a phrase in England "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". I don't feel that we are in a position of enough strength in terms of the management of the railway in this country to go around levelling blanket criticisms elsewhere.

Whilst I think the thread title is inappropriate, and based on a very small sample, many of the comments help to describe the specificities of France and what can be expected short term.

From outside, I would say the UK has a very good rail network with relatively high frequencies. France's network impact is similar but the country is bigger and large cities wider spread.

I liken the impact of the TGV trains to that of the HST, they were a step change, albeit with an enormous investment in infrastructure. HS2 will be the equivalent of Paris-Lyon.

Many of the French regions are spending a fortune on the TER network with some having very low fares (1 euro), and with brand new trains.

It will take time, but both France and the UK are trying to bring rail up to date, and I doubt either will be ready if there is another fuel crisis nearterm.
 

daikilo

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French minister for transport has apparently announced a longterm plan for investments in rail starting with additional capacity around certain provincial centres
https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...tised-in-french-infrastructure-programme.html
then, according to other media, up to 5 new LGVs or extensions, the latter to be discussed with the regions during the autumn. Specific dates are not mentioned but it appears it is at least a 20-year strategy.
 

duesselmartin

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I dontd think its harsh. I am from gerGerm and criticise DB too.
The UK has improved a lot in the last decade while other countries have taken a view steps back, including Germany.
 

CC 72100

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Many of the French regions are spending a fortune on the TER network with some having very low fares (1 euro), and with brand new trains.

I don't actually that as a good thing, more so a stroke of desperation to get 'bums on seats'.. I've had a couple of journeys with TER Languedoc-Roussillon for 1 euro which I greatly enjoyed but at the same time I'm fully aware that it probably isn't a sustainable business model.
 

daikilo

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I don't actually that as a good thing, more so a stroke of desperation to get 'bums on seats'.. I've had a couple of journeys with TER Languedoc-Roussillon for 1 euro which I greatly enjoyed but at the same time I'm fully aware that it probably isn't a sustainable business model.

It isn't, but it is a good way of getting people including families to "try it".
 

CC 72100

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It isn't, but it is a good way of getting people including families to "try it".

In which case surely it would be done as a seasonal promotion? The fact that it's done all-year round for at least the last 3 years to me suggests that financially they're in a pretty rotten place. I don't disagree that you should then throw the dice to change it, but does give a bit of a clue into the health of the finances!
 

camperdown9

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I guess its down to personal experience.

My nearest station is at Montbard.

From time to time I use the TGV up to Paris. Journey time is one hour and there are I think four services a day each direction. There is also a service that goes to CDG and Lille. Plus a train to Mulhouse. TGV tends to be expensive, but first class is about the same price as standard and the trains tend to be clean tidy. And in my experience on time. Plus you are guaranteed a seat.

There is also a TER service up to Paris. Its a lot slower and takes around two and a half hours. They use old corail stock. However the seats are better that Southeastern have and if you are six two much more comfortable. There is a service down to Dijon that uses more modern stock but I haven't used that often. TER Bourgogne Franche-conte offer a card that costs €20 for a year and gives the holder 20% of all weekday fares and 60% of weekend fares and also during school holidays. So Montbard to Paris costs €28 return at the weekend or school holidays. I don't think thats too bad for a nearly 500km round trip.

Again its personal preference but I find TER and TGV services much better that Southeastern. Southeastern seam to think that its ok to charge a fortune for the Canterbury to Kings Cross high speed service and often on weekday mornings (and evenings from London), make us stand. I used to pay for a first class season ticket for the slow train to Victoria. The only benefit is that it nearly guarantees the holder a seat. However often they declassify first class and its means nothing.
 

30907

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In which case surely it would be done as a seasonal promotion? The fact that it's done all-year round for at least the last 3 years to me suggests that financially they're in a pretty rotten place. I don't disagree that you should then throw the dice to change it, but does give a bit of a clue into the health of the finances!

Bear in mind that it is very common for (rural) buses to have a 1EUR flat fare as well. There is only a handful of lines in Occitanie that have this - all very rural - but there are 1EUR Advance tickets (in theory) right across the Region.
 

nw1

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My experience with French railways is limited; largely only TGVs (which I have been very happy with) in recent years though I have also used the (frequent) electric stopping service in the Nice area.

Going further back, my first ever non-UK train travel was in the Massif Central in 1983, from Aurillac to Neussargues on a 'classic' French DMU heading for Clermont-Ferrand. Don't think the service was bad as such, and probably reasonably adequate for the rural area it was in (though there were no fast services from Aurillac to anywhere, so if you wanted to travel to say Paris it must have been a slow journey, but as others have said maybe not many people wish to do this); comparable to rural British services of the time, an irregular DMU-based service running every 2 or 3 hours with short journeys running extras at peak time.
I also remember leather seats, which were quite hot compared the carpet-like seats on UK DMUs of the time; this was July 1983 which was a notably hot month both there and back here.

Aurillac station itself was an unusual experience. Quite a large station, in the largest town for what must be at least 50 miles, but with only occasional irregular DMUs going in or out.

The thing I have noticed though is how (apparently) a lot of the smaller stations appear to have closed since 1983. At the time, there were several small village stops between Aurillac and Vic-sur-Cere; now apparently all gone.
 

dutchflyer

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some comments on above;
the regions (which were merged a lot last year into bigger areas) have very little to say about what SNCF delivers-they only have to pay. THey now also have to bear the brunt of the former IC-then TET. Many would like to get rid of SNCF ASAP, but:
Due to the ever prevalent French striking habits (thus barring DOO etc.) the way to offer services is more like : long=heavy trains, but not too many. The exact opposite of ATOC in UK; more frequent, but sometimes even laughably short trains (TPE with 3 cars -standees midday, that was last week on my InterRailtrip).
It is often said and repeated on all IR-fora: both FR and ES are simply the worst for using IR-in FR due to it limited service and need for more expensive quote-controlled REServations for all those fast trains.
 
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