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Cross Country New Franchise

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Kite159

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The easiest way to solve the Stansted issues is a new build of 4-coach CAF DMUs, freeing up the 170s so they can replace some Sprinters in other franchises

With more stock then they can extend the Birmingham - Leicester services to Peterborough.
 
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sprinterguy

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Could Class 802 be the answer as suggested previously?
Not if they intended to continue to use the bay platform 2 at Stansted Airport at its current length: 106 metres, against the 126 metre length of a 5-car class 802.

Stadler FLIRTs as being built for Greater Anglia would be a more attractive option in this purely hypothetical scenario, IMO, but personally I can't see any benefit to reinstating Stansted - Liverpool through services.
The easiest way to solve the Stansted issues is a new build of 4-coach CAF DMUs, freeing up the 170s so they can replace some Sprinters in other franchises

With more stock then they can extend the Birmingham - Leicester services to Peterborough.
That would seem the best case scenario for Stansted services under the next Crosscountry franchise, in my view.
 
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sprinterguy

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I guess the question (for me) is what is more important to Manchester/ Stockport/ Macclesfield/ Stoke - significantly longer trains to Wolverhampton/ Birmingham/ Coventry or a through service to places a couple of hundred miles away (which may be nice to have but are of less importance for the majority of daily passengers).

For me, I'd rather Manchester (and Liverpool) had something like an eight coach 350 or a nine/eleven coach 390 for the vast majority of their Birmingham services (than a Voyager with just a couple of hundred seats that would provide a useful through journey to somewhere on the coast for a summer holiday, but was of less use the rest of the year). Just a personal opinion though - I suspect that a proportion of people on here prefer long distance complicated quirky services to shorter clock face/ metro ones.
I agree completely: I travel between Macclesfield and Birmingham 5 days a week, most weeks, and between Macc and Manchester frequently enough and I'd welcome longer trains at the cost of through connectivity. I suspect that the majority of my fellow passengers - many of whom in my experience do alight at Birmingham despite views to the contrary previously in this thread - would feel the same. I wouldn't want Manchester to have Crosscountry services beyond Birmingham removed completely, but replacing one train per hour with an 8-car 350 would be great for those regular travellers such as myself who would like a better chance of a seat.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Drafted out a possible future timetable for the proposed future franchise.

  • 1tph from Liverpool-Stansted
  • 1tph from Manchester-Bournemouth
  • 1tph from Plymouth-Edinburgh (every two hours to Glasgow)
  • 1tph from Cardiff-Nottingham
  • 1tph from Bristol-Manchester (possibly starting at Cardiff)
  • 1tph from Reading-Newcastle
  • 1tph from Birmingham-Peterborough
The idea is to eliminate as many terminating services at Birmingham on the CrossCountry franchise (except Birmingham-Peterborough).
Penzance and Aberdeen would no longer run. Bath-Bristol would stop completely. Guildford would cease and Birmingham Nottingham service to WMR.

Stock:

Could Class 222's or a purchase of Class 802's be the answer to Long Distance services (including Liverpool-Stansted services). Maybe a transfer of ex-WMR Class 170's would allow a Birmingham-Peterborough service.
 

tbtc

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I thought one of the raison d'etres for XC was to enable middle aged and elderly folk living in southern counties to make VFR journeys to northern areas and vice versa. Your suggestions of enforcing a change in Birmingham (or London) instead of a through journey or the relatively convenient Wolverhampton change would most likely see the end of this all year round market.


This is the problem.

Should XC be focussed around the need to provide Doris with a direct train from her house near Bristol Temple Meads to visit her grandkids once a year in their house near Manchester Piccadilly? (I’m assuming the locations, since, if having to change at New Street will put her off making the journey then presumably she won’t want to change at Temple Meads or Piccadilly?)

Or should XC (as the TOC providing 99% of services between two of the three biggest conurbations in the country) be focussing on moving large numbers of people from the West Midlands to Greater Manchester on a regular basis (and if that includes people making annual trips to see their family hundreds of miles away then that’s an added bonus)?

Personally, I think that heavy rail does best when it focusses on bulk journeys, like the large numbers moving from city to city. If we want to cater to obscure journeys between places hundreds of miles apart then that’s a market that National Express might be better suited to

BR had some quirky/ irregular services that were suited to the kind of “visiting friends and relations” market that you refer to – like the 158 from Glasgow to Portsmouth that reversed in Liverpool to tick as many boxes as possible. But BR had a nice empty railway (e.g. only hourly from London to Manchester), so much more space to accommodate trains catering to the “granny” market.

It’d be nice to have a couple of services a day from Brighton/ Gatwick to Birmingham/ “the north” nowadays but the lines through Sussex are full with twelve coach trains at clockface intervals that are busy all year round – there’s no space for a Voyager to run a handful of times a day.

Same applies to other lines – it’d be nice to give everywhere a direct service to everywhere but the railway works much better when focussing on regular/ simple/ bulk flows.

Trouble is, enthusiasts and politicians both over-egg the long distance services – hence Wales & Borders being hamstrung by the need to provide Holyhead with a bi-hourly service to Cardiff, hence providing everywhere in northern England with an hourly service to Manchester Airport (which causes all sorts of problems on the Castelefield corridor).

A lot of through services only really exist because it’s easier than terminating everything in an intermediate city. There's not much actual demand to get from Manchester to Bournemouth, in the way that there's not much actual demand to get from Stanmore to Stratford or from Altrincham to Bury or from Milngavie to Larkhall - it's just convenient linking of separate services together that is probably more about operational convenience than significant passenger flows.

Trouble is, one "Doris" seems to be more important than passengers who make lots of regular journeys (e.g. Stoke to Birmingham), the dog is wagging the tail.

Part of the problem with Cross Country's Birmingham to Stansted Airport route is the fact is not only that 2 cars are used when they need to be a minimum of 3 cars but also because of the Leicester stoppers.

Because they only go as far as Leicester, you get people for Leicester also filling up the Stansted services as it's a half hourly service between Leicester and Birmingham meaning these who travel further often struggle for seats.

The easiest solution in lieu of more 170s is simply to extend the Leicester stoppers to Stansted thus spreading the load equally and therefore least giving people the chance of a seat especially these who travel pass Leicester.

Even if these stoppers only got extended to Peterborough as you now have platforms 6 and 7, it should be possible to extend the service there especially as Birmingham only has a 10 to 15 minute turnaround so no reason why Peterborough can't do it especially as they already have a catering base at Peterborough.

It's over two hours from Leicester to Stansted, so you'd need five additional DMUs to provide that kind of improved service.

Given the need to improve services from Birmingham to Leicester (two large places with only short DMUs running between them), I wonder whether we should consider removing the Stansted bit of the service, since the platform restrictions at the terminal station are throttling the opportunity to increase capacity on the (busier) western section.

Didn’t Liverpool to Birmingham used to be part of the Stansted service. As there are 2tph between Liverpool and Birmingham and 2tph between Birmingham and Leicester and one to Stansted, was there 2tph between Liverpool and Stansted via Birmingham.

It was an hourly DMU from Liverpool to Stansted, with the remaining service from Liverpool to Birmingham being a combination of irregular XC services and some local "stoppers". The XC service was never better than bi-hourly (for a while XC provided 3tp2h to Manchester and 1tp2h to Liverpool).

Drafted out a possible future timetable for the proposed future franchise.

  • 1tph from Liverpool-Stansted
  • 1tph from Manchester-Bournemouth
  • 1tph from Plymouth-Edinburgh (every two hours to Glasgow)
  • 1tph from Cardiff-Nottingham
  • 1tph from Bristol-Manchester (possibly starting at Cardiff)
  • 1tph from Reading-Newcastle
  • 1tph from Birmingham-Peterborough
The idea is to eliminate as many terminating services at Birmingham on the CrossCountry franchise (except Birmingham-Peterborough).
Penzance and Aberdeen would no longer run. Bath-Bristol would stop completely. Guildford would cease and Birmingham Nottingham service to WMR.

Stock:

Could Class 222's or a purchase of Class 802's be the answer to Long Distance services (including Liverpool-Stansted services). Maybe a transfer of ex-WMR Class 170's would allow a Birmingham-Peterborough service.

The more I think about New Street, the more I am convinced that the "solution" would be to turn it into two separate/parallel stations, like Clapham Junction (with the Southern/ SWT sides).

I'd then try to simplify the through services - e.g. everything from the Telford corridor running through to the Nuneaton corridor (e.g. Aberystwyth - Leicester and Shrewsbury - Stanstead). Minimise terminating services. But then you get into arguments about Welsh control etc. It'd never work.
 

Brummigrant

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The more I think about New Street, the more I am convinced that the "solution" would be to turn it into two separate/parallel stations, like Clapham Junction (with the Southern/ SWT sides).

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but New Street is exactly like that anyway, no? Only platforms 9-12 can go to Worcester/Bristol?
 

Jorge Da Silva

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The more I think about New Street, the more I am convinced that the "solution" would be to turn it into two separate/parallel stations, like Clapham Junction (with the Southern/ SWT sides).

That’s what New Street used to be it was the MR side (nowadays CrossCountry) and LNWR (West Coast Main Line). It’s why New Street is so complicated in terms of track layout as it is two stations in one. They were merged together in the 60’s when it was rebuilt.
 

43074

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With more stock then they can extend the Birmingham - Leicester services to Peterborough.

Why though? The crowding on that route is focused between Birmingham and Leicester and between Peterborough, Cambridge & Stansted. Melton/Oakham/Stamford aren't huge towns, improving earlier and later services, running half hourly peak services into/out of Leicester and making everything a minimum of 3-cars off peak should solve the crowding there is on that stretch.

If we are talking about extra services East of Leicester, doubling Peterborough to Cambridge to half hourly with an additional shuttle between the two would be a better use of resources.

This is the problem.

Should XC be focussed around the need to provide Doris with a direct train from her house near Bristol Temple Meads to visit her grandkids once a year in their house near Manchester Piccadilly? (I’m assuming the locations, since, if having to change at New Street will put her off making the journey then presumably she won’t want to change at Temple Meads or Piccadilly?)

Or should XC (as the TOC providing 99% of services between two of the three biggest conurbations in the country) be focussing on moving large numbers of people from the West Midlands to Greater Manchester on a regular basis (and if that includes people making annual trips to see their family hundreds of miles away then that’s an added bonus)?

To be honest there's no reason XC shouldn't do both provided there is enough capacity on the trains. At the moment there isn't, but the solution is to run longer trains - the current extent of the (intercity) XC network is the smallest it's ever been, where do you draw boundaries if cutting things back further? You don't actually help capacity at places like New Street if you start splitting routes left right and centre to allow you to run an 8-car 350 to Manchester because nothing West of Bromsgrove is wired, and equally services to Penzance/Guildford etc largely already run in marginal time anyway so removing them doesn't really give you very much extra capacity, certainly not of the amount required anyway.
 

Jorge Da Silva

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To be honest there's no reason XC shouldn't do both provided there is enough capacity on the trains. At the moment there isn't, but the solution is to run longer trains - the current extent of the (intercity) XC network is the smallest it's ever been, where do you draw boundaries if cutting things back further? You don't actually help capacity at places like New Street if you start splitting routes left right and centre to allow you to run an 8-car 350 to Manchester because nothing West of Bromsgrove is wired, and equally services to Penzance/Guildford etc largely already run in marginal time anyway so removing them doesn't really give you very much extra capacity, certainly not of the amount required anyway.

What about HS2 (particularly Phase 2b as it follows the York-Birmingham section) and EWR surely they provide/enable new routes:

EWR Corridors
  • Norwich-Cambridge-Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford-Reading
  • Birmingham-Coventry-Rugby-Milton Keynes-Oxford-Reading
  • Ipswich-Cambridge-Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford-Reading
  • Nottingham/Sheffield-Bedford-Bletchley-Oxford-Reading
HS2 (Phase 1 and 2) Corridors:

  • York-Birmingham
  • Manchester-Birmingham
  • Wigan-Birmingham
  • Birmingham-Milton Keynes Central
With all this free capacity in the future what new services could be added?
 

Aictos

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Obviously you haven't travelled between Peterborough and Leicester as that is equally as busy as Cambridge to Peterborough or Leicester to Birmingham because a additional shuttle between Peterborough and Cambridge does nothing to help these travelling onto Birmingham.

Peterborough to Stansted is well served by XC to Stansted or Greater Anglia/East Midlands Trains changing at Ely/Cambridge.

Running Birmingham to Cambridge with 5 to 6 extra units would spread the existing overcrowding over multiple services and have more chance of a seat more so if all services were 4 cars.

As to First Class until they sort out the overcrowding should XC suspend this on the 170 routes?
 

tbtc

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The more I think about New Street, the more I am convinced that the "solution" would be to turn it into two separate/parallel stations, like Clapham Junction (with the Southern/ SWT sides).

I'd then try to simplify the through services - e.g. everything from the Telford corridor running through to the Nuneaton corridor (e.g. Aberystwyth - Leicester and Shrewsbury - Stanstead). Minimise terminating services. But then you get into arguments about Welsh control etc. It'd never work.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but New Street is exactly like that anyway, no? Only platforms 9-12 can go to Worcester/Bristol?

I was meaning splitting the two "sides" up into:

  • Edinburgh/ ECML/ Nottingham/ Tamworth/ Leicester/ Lichfield to Bromsgrove/ Cardiff/ Bristol/ Penzance
  • WCML/ Manchester/ Liverpool/ Shrewsbury/ Wolves to Coventry/ Euston/ Reading/ Bournemouth

...so that disruption from one side wouldn't affect the other and the service pattern would be much simpler. XC would then be split into the Manchester - Bournemouth corridor (which could be part of the current WCML franchise) and the East Midlands - West Country corridor (which could be part of the EMR franchise).

All this mucking about reversing at New Street to ensure that there's a direct service from Reading to Doncaster seems to be more trouble than it's worth.
 

pt_mad

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350/4 are not spare, they will be going to LNR to allow them to get rid of the 319s (or possibly, if they change their minds, to extend more trains to 12-car). Otherwise they'd be ideal as they are (give or take new seat covers and pairing up) for XC Manc-Brum being 2+2 with 2+1 in 1st.

If the owners of the /2s could give LNR a better deal, those could perhaps remain there, where they probably make more sense. Indeed, arguably you could then send some of the /1s to SWR to use instead of the 442s, where their third rail capability would be ideal for the Pompey Direct as 12-car formations - more capacity than 442s, newer, more reliable and actually sending them to the TOC for whom they were originally ordered!
With the orders being signed for the Aventras though I think it's too late to keep the 350/2s at WMT now, unless it were just a handful, in which case 360s might be more suitable if anything.

I thought one of the raison d'etres for XC was to enable middle aged and elderly folk living in southern counties to make VFR journeys to northern areas and vice versa. Your suggestions of enforcing a change in Birmingham (or London) instead of a through journey or the relatively convenient Wolverhampton change would most likely see the end of this all year round market.
Two possible solutions: terminate the current XC Manchester services at Wolverhampton, avoiding dwell time at New St and pax could connect into a 350 Manchester service there.
Or, terminate the current XC Manchesters at New St, but passengers from the South Coast and Reading are advised to change over for Manchester at Birmingham International onto a 350 service.

how would that solve the problem with the Stansted trains which sometimes operate with about 300 to 350 people crammed into a 2 car set between Peterborough and Stamford in peak periods on that line the overcrowding is on certain sections not the full length it's the 170's that need increasing what about building centre trailers to extend all the 2 car to 3 cars would that not be a partial solution ?
The only quick fix is that XC take on WMR's former 170s being released within the next two years I believe? They already share the same depot as XC's own 170s. Makes total complete sense and letting them go elsewhere may be a critical mistake.

4 car workings desirable on all Turbo routes although I'm not completely sure whether 2 X 2 car 170s coupled actually has clearance at Stansted? May be limited to Cambridge only. Can anyone confirm please? Would it ha e to be SDO at Stansted with only 3 cars being open?

Otherwise or in addition to, possible 185s on Turbo routes.
 

pt_mad

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I was meaning splitting the two "sides" up into:

  • Edinburgh/ ECML/ Nottingham/ Tamworth/ Leicester/ Lichfield to Bromsgrove/ Cardiff/ Bristol/ Penzance
  • WCML/ Manchester/ Liverpool/ Shrewsbury/ Wolves to Coventry/ Euston/ Reading/ Bournemouth

...so that disruption from one side wouldn't affect the other and the service pattern would be much simpler. XC would then be split into the Manchester - Bournemouth corridor (which could be part of the current WCML franchise) and the East Midlands - West Country corridor (which could be part of the EMR franchise).

All this mucking about reversing at New Street to ensure that there's a direct service from Reading to Doncaster seems to be more trouble than it's worth.

Hereford and Shrewsbury WMR services could in theory run to Leicester and Nottingham vice the current local XC services. However it's remapping again and so it aint likely to happen as part of any direct award. Remapping potentially we're talking probably 5 years away now for XC because of these troubles. Probably longer if in needed new trains. And then we're into HS2 start territory.
 

yorkie

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Just a reminder that ideas, suggestions, speculation, etc need to go in the Speculative Ideas section of the forum.

We are currently considering whether to move this entire thread to that section, or close it and start afresh, or something else.

If you wish to reply to something that is off-topic, or that is in the wrong forum, please ensure that your reply is in the correct place. If there isn't an existing thread, feel free to create a new one.
 

43074

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Obviously you haven't travelled between Peterborough and Leicester as that is equally as busy as Cambridge to Peterborough or Leicester to Birmingham because a additional shuttle between Peterborough and Cambridge does nothing to help these travelling onto Birmingham.

Peterborough to Stansted is well served by XC to Stansted or Greater Anglia/East Midlands Trains changing at Ely/Cambridge.

Running Birmingham to Cambridge with 5 to 6 extra units would spread the existing overcrowding over multiple services and have more chance of a seat more so if all services were 4 cars.

Living in Leicester I've used the route many times thank you, it's busy yes but my point was is there anything that couldn't be solved by running longer trains?

A Peterborough to Cambridge shuttle provides an alternative on the 2nd busiest stretch of the route, it helps people in Cambridge travelling to Birmingham as some of the Peterborough traffic would probably transfer to the shuttle meaning there are more seats available on the Birmingham trains. It also helps commuting options from the Peterborough/March area to Cambridge and provides more capacity on the Ely - Cambridge stretch. Improving connections for LNER services at Peterborough is a far higher priority for people in Cambridge than being able to get to Leicester & Birmingham every half hour. In theory it does nothing a half hourly Birmingham service wouldn't do either, but there's a significant traincrew and rolling stock cost attached with that which isn't incurred to the same extent by running a shuttle.
 

pt_mad

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So, when is an XC direct franchise award likely to be announced now. Surely one needs to come soon considering what was announced the other week?
 

Jorge Da Silva

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Isn't Moor Street planning to take Leicester, Nottingham and Hereford services when the chords are built as part of the Midlands Hub by Midlands Connect? So Birmingham-Leicester (and if extended, Peterborough) would end up at Moor Street. This would free up some capacity at New Street for more services.
 

pt_mad

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Isn't Moor Street planning to take Leicester, Nottingham and Hereford services when the chords are built as part of the Midlands Hub by Midlands Connect? So Birmingham-Leicester (and if extended, Peterborough) would end up at Moor Street. This would free up some capacity at New Street for more services.

How long is that going to take to implement though? Re a likely direct award now, improvements are needed fast as part of that. I.e. some decent improvements for XC in 2020.
 

yorkie

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If anyone wishes to discuss a particular aspect of the XC network, please create a new thread.

If you wish to discuss ideas and suggestions, please ensure it's in the relevant area for that.
 
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