GWR Class 800

Clarence Yard · 1 Nov 2018

swt_passenger said:
The date for Old Oak Common depot closure is fixed and has presumably been factored into the HST off-lease timings?

No - they were dealt with separately. OOC (& Landore) closure has more influence on what individual diagrams you have to put the IET sets on, not the rate of HST sets going off lease. The Scottish situation has been the main factor in determining the HST release dates right up to present day.

RailUK Forums

43096 · 1 Nov 2018

jimm said:
Maybe you could systematically monitor the situation, rather than persisting in making unsubstantiated assertions on the amount of short-forms operating, but then I expect GWR has a secret policy to suppress the truth by not getting every single short-form on Journeycheck - as opposed to someone occasionally overlooking it in the midst of trying to keep on top of a complicated situation.

Journeycheck today showing a 5-vice-9 and two 5-vice-10 diagrams, which suggests they are a 5-car and a 9-car short (with one 10 car split to cover the 9-car - I don't know for sure, but let's be generous). That's three days out of four I've checked this week - the two other days I posted previously, which you conveniently ignored - and there have been short forms all three days. That fits a reasonable definition of "regular" short forms.

Frankly you can sit there as long as you like dribbling about dictionary definitions, peak vs off-peak and seat numbers, but you're not grasping the central point: every short form is a let-down in the service to passengers. You just seem to parrot GWR's corporate drivel, and are just as guilty as anyone else of not providing evidence to back up your assertions.

JN114 · 1 Nov 2018

Directive from on high issued this afternoon that tomorrow’s 1203 Padd - Penzance must not be short formed. Whether that ends up at the expense of something else remains to be seen, but reports are that senior management are furious.... We shall have to wait and see...

Clarence Yard · 1 Nov 2018

43096 said:
Journeycheck today showing a 5-vice-9 and two 5-vice-10 diagrams, which suggests they are a 5-car and a 9-car short (with one 10 car split to cover the 9-car - I don't know for sure, but let's be generous). That's three days out of four I've checked this week - the two other days I posted previously, which you conveniently ignored - and there have been short forms all three days. That fits a reasonable definition of "regular" short forms.

Frankly you can sit there as long as you like dribbling about dictionary definitions, peak vs off-peak and seat numbers, but you're not grasping the central point: every short form is a let-down in the service to passengers. You just seem to parrot GWR's corporate drivel, and are just as guilty as anyone else of not providing evidence to back up your assertions.

The three short forms seemed to have worked off three different depots so it looks as if Hitachi were short everywhere this morning. Not sure of the cause.

Bayum · 1 Nov 2018

JN114 said:
Directive from on high issued this afternoon that tomorrow’s 1203 Padd - Penzance must not be short formed. Whether that ends up at the expense of something else remains to be seen, but reports are that senior management are furious.... We shall have to wait and see...

Any reason for that service in particular?

broadgage · 1 Nov 2018

Bayum said:
Any reason for that service in particular?

I doubt that the reason for giving special attention to not short forming the 12-03 will be made public. A cynic like me would suspect that an MP or senior political figure has complained about previous short formations of that particular service, they might even have alleged that these short formations are "regular" or "frequent".
It should be easy enough to make the 12-03 full length by short forming a different service.

CMRail · 1 Nov 2018

John Clausen said:
It is difficult to understand why trains are being sent off to sit in sidings whilst there are insufficient replacements.

That isn’t GWRs fault, that’s the leasing company. They are waiting to be refurbished and sometimes are not just sat in a siding as suggested.

jayah · 1 Nov 2018

43096 said:
Journeycheck today showing a 5-vice-9 and two 5-vice-10 diagrams, which suggests they are a 5-car and a 9-car short (with one 10 car split to cover the 9-car - I don't know for sure, but let's be generous). That's three days out of four I've checked this week - the two other days I posted previously, which you conveniently ignored - and there have been short forms all three days. That fits a reasonable definition of "regular" short forms.

Frankly you can sit there as long as you like dribbling about dictionary definitions, peak vs off-peak and seat numbers, but you're not grasping the central point: every short form is a let-down in the service to passengers. You just seem to parrot GWR's corporate drivel, and are just as guilty as anyone else of not providing evidence to back up your assertions.

Again, it it a fools errand as Journey Check does not have all of the short formed trains put on it.

jayah · 1 Nov 2018

JN114 said:
Directive from on high issued this afternoon that tomorrow’s 1203 Padd - Penzance must not be short formed. Whether that ends up at the expense of something else remains to be seen, but reports are that senior management are furious.... We shall have to wait and see...

We were told here the other day that "headcode" was suitable for a downgrade as it ran with empty seats earlier in the week.

I imagine on a Friday there are fewer commuters and better to have standing to Reading and Didcot than to Exeter but it is a bad position either way.

jayah · 1 Nov 2018

Clarence Yard said:
With respect, you still aren't getting it.

The off lease HST sets are not GWR's to use. It has nothing to do with money - GWR has been paying through the nose for the sets it has been able to retain past the official lease return date but neither the leasing company nor Scotland wish to lease any more of them to GWR. They cannot be forced to do so.

The current problem with 5 vs 9 or 10 is overstated. It's annoying when it does happen as every unit short affects around 5 to 6 trains a day (if it doesn't appear later on) but it isn't the endemic problem that it was when Hitachi were trying to maintain 100% availability on all fleet types. You can go days now without short forming happening at all but it isn't as perfect as it should be.

Retaining HST sets doesn't really help when Hitachi tell GWR Control in the early morning that they are going to be a set down at, say, Maliphant, for the morning service. Then it is usually a question of what service do you short form? If they were all 9 car sets, it would be a question of what service do you cancel? What is worse is when the unit fails just before handover and the driver arrives expecting to get a 9 or 10 but he has to pick up a 5. Then the choice of service to short form is effectively made for you.

We are told the short forms arise from Hitachi were / are running at near 100% required availability. So having extra HSTs on hand is all the difference. I don't know if they really are being diagrammed like that without some figures.

And again if Virgin trains run 98% of London to Liverpool with 9/11 car Pendolinos I don't subscribe to your 'better half than none'.

jayah · 1 Nov 2018

II said:
The current MAA (Moving Annual Average) for the percentage of trains shortformed on HSS services is 12.5%, the last month was virtually the same at 12.91%. Too high, but I assume that would also cover shortforms such as 10-car IET's being worked by 9-car ones (which makes no difference in terms of seating provision), and when 2+8 HST's are replaced by 2+7 ones.

It is a fairly meaningless statistic unless it can be produced without the 9 cars instead of 10 being counted.

Darandio · 1 Nov 2018

CMRail said:
That isn’t GWRs fault, that’s the leasing company. They are waiting to be refurbished and sometimes are not just sat in a siding as suggested.

It's completely irrelevant where the blame lies. Certainly as a passenger I couldn't care less.

jimm · 1 Nov 2018

43096 said:
Journeycheck today showing a 5-vice-9 and two 5-vice-10 diagrams, which suggests they are a 5-car and a 9-car short (with one 10 car split to cover the 9-car - I don't know for sure, but let's be generous). That's three days out of four I've checked this week - the two other days I posted previously, which you conveniently ignored - and there have been short forms all three days. That fits a reasonable definition of "regular" short forms.

Frankly you can sit there as long as you like dribbling about dictionary definitions, peak vs off-peak and seat numbers, but you're not grasping the central point: every short form is a let-down in the service to passengers. You just seem to parrot GWR's corporate drivel, and are just as guilty as anyone else of not providing evidence to back up your assertions.

I have never said that there are not short forms out there, have I?

But whether you like the meanings of plain old English words or not (apparently not), occasional, random short-forming – the thing that is actually happening on GWR, affecting different services on different days and at different times - is not routine, regular, frequent, planned, deliberate, systematic or any other word you or anyone else cares to pick.

On Monday, presumably one of the days you are referring to, GWR rolling stock was all over the place at the start of the day after the major disruption caused by the overhead wire fault in West London on Sunday, but don't let that get in the way of having a rant, will you?

And at least a train of some sort is operating in those cases on GWR - I don't recommend trying to catch a train in some parts of Wales at the moment - see https://www.journeycheck.com/tfwrail/ - rather a lot of let-down passengers there.

jayah said:
And again if Virgin trains run 98% of London to Liverpool with 9/11 car Pendolinos I don't subscribe to your 'better half than none'.

Oh deary me, what do we find when we look at the saintly Virgin's Journeycheck page right now

16:43 London Euston to Edinburgh due 22:19

Facilities on the 16:43 London Euston to Edinburgh due 22:19.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10 from London Euston. This train will run in reverse formation throughout. First class located at front.
Last Updated:01/11/2018 16:53

A five vice 10 Class 221 formation was also in use on some Chester route services earlier in the day. I expect most of the passengers to and from Chester and the North Wales Coast were perfectly happy to use what was provided, rather than have to wait another hour for the next service.

CMRail · 1 Nov 2018

Darandio said:
It's completely irrelevant where the blame lies. Certainly as a passenger I couldn't care less.

If I was not talking directly too you then I wouldn’t need to drop where the blame is. I was explaining to the person I quotes why they are sat in empty sidings.

MontyP · 1 Nov 2018

After travelling between London and Bristol return a couple of times most weeks for the last few months I can’t hold back any longer on having a rant about how utterly shambolic the service has been since the start of the IEP rollout. Yet another short formed journey back from Bristol today with passengers standing all the way. I can’t remember a single journey in either direction that hasn’t been either delayed, cancelled, short-formed or substituted (so no seat reservations). Coupled with that, the late announcements at Paddington (regularly less than 5 mins before scheduled departure time) mean a race to board before the service leaves.

It seems that the whole rollout and transition is badly planned and poorly executed. Can anyone offer any hope that there will be a normal service any time soon?

Clarence Yard · 1 Nov 2018

jayah said:
We are told the short forms arise from Hitachi were / are running at near 100% required availability. So having extra HSTs on hand is all the difference. I don't know if they really are being diagrammed like that without some figures.

And again if Virgin trains run 98% of London to Liverpool with 9/11 car Pendolinos I don't subscribe to your 'better half than none'.

The current availability is now not at 100%. Taking the 5 car 800 sets as an example, GWR pay for 32 diagrams a day. Two driver trainer and 4 ex cl.180 diagrams are 5 car and the 26 others are formed up as primarily 13 x 10 car.

Hitachi currently have 34 sets to meet those 32 diagrams. This week they will be added to by the final acceptance of 800001/2 into the fleet. They have been doing some work on the driver trainer diagrams but have finally been brought up to passenger standard although, with instrumented pans for testing, they will be confined to the driver trainer diagrams for a few months more. That will bring the fleet up to 36 for 32 daily diagrams.

The whole cascade has been bizarre. Largely set by external forces, not least that unbelievably tight IEP contract, it has been the worst set of stock cascade plans I have ever had to devise in 40 years on the railway. At times it has been completely bonkers and if you think we are now on version 6.3b, you will understand that it has been very fraught. It has been like doing ultimate killer Suduko, rather than proper planning.

Hitachi’s lack of delivery has and continues to be lamentable. The persistent short forms because of Hitachi issues are just not acceptable but also both GWR and NR need to ensure the units are presented at the right time for their contracted maintenance downtime. Late on means late off or not off at all and then GWR won’t get it’s rebate payments.

Just what has been going on with the seat res. is unbelievable. Quite how this has occurred is not for these pages and there is now a lot of effort being put in by both sides to sort it all out but this should have been all thought through years ago.

Last Saturday I had the pleasure of travelling to Oxford on an HST. But I agree with the poster about these late boarding announcements at Paddington - we had 6 minutes and it was a real scramble as we left F&S. Class 1 services need at least 10-15 minutes boarding time.

When it is going to be normal again? Hopefully when we finally get trains that work as promised.

Meerkat · 1 Nov 2018

Are Hitachi blowing their future chances here?
GWR is one thing but the DfT are not going to want this much mess when the great white HS2 opens....

northernbelle · 1 Nov 2018

jayah said:
We were told here the other day that "headcode" was suitable for a downgrade as it ran with empty seats earlier in the week.

I imagine on a Friday there are fewer commuters and better to have standing to Reading and Didcot than to Exeter but it is a bad position either way.

I reported that, on Tuesday, the 1203 ran as a 5 car and there were a good number of seats free.

That does not in itself make it suitable for a 'downgrade'- I expect it to be much busier on Friday. It was showing as 9 car 802101 today.

BlyRF · 1 Nov 2018

Just been on a ride on this recently to Reading from Paddington and the speed/acceleration under electric power is deffo superb reaching 125mph by 5 mins or so, but the ride quality feels somewhat unstable at the speed as if it's gonna tip over at each slight curve or bend.

The HST ride back felt more solid perhaps due to the heavy steel body build and that massive powerhouse power car, but still bounced about abit as if the suspension is "drunk" or having an overdose. lol

Then again its not that often I catch a ride on GWR services. Then again I found the phone charging a bit disappointing as it struggled to gain another percentage along with ESD interference affecting my touch screen sensitivity till I had to remove the charger.

Is it fair to say the 800 series is as bad as Heihachi's old CRT TVs? :lol:

fgwrich · 2 Nov 2018

Clarence Yard said:
Just what has been going on with the seat res. is unbelievable. Quite how this has occurred is not for these pages and there is now a lot of effort being put in by both sides to sort it all out but this should have been all thought through years ago.

Last Saturday I had the pleasure of travelling to Oxford on an HST. But I agree with the poster about these late boarding announcements at Paddington - we had 6 minutes and it was a real scramble as we left F&S. Class 1 services need at least 10-15 minutes boarding time.

When it is going to be normal again? Hopefully when we finally get trains that work as promised.

This is another issue that I have also noticed a lot more recently. I recently took a trip down to Devon on the 13:03 HST. There were 3 HST sets sat in Platforms 1-3 at Paddington for the 15 minute duration I was there for. Eventually, at 13:00 the 13:03 Was announced leading to a mad crush on the platform as people scrambled for the the 13:03 Plymouth on Platform 2 and the slightly delayed (and late announced!) 13:00 to Bristol on Platform 3. It's an issue which really needs addressing but seems to be getting worse, and apparently ended up leaving passengers with reservations behind as a result.

CMRail · 2 Nov 2018

Hybrid Seat Reservation system is going to be introduced early December. This means that you will be given HST, 9Car and 10Car reservations all on one reservation. Of course l, as of current, 10car reservations won’t be offered on South and North Cotswolds.

No further information given as of yet but not too long until this issue will be resolved.

paul1609 · 2 Nov 2018

Clarence Yard said:
The current availability is now not at 100%. Taking the 5 car 800 sets as an example, GWR pay for 32 diagrams a day. Two driver trainer and 4 ex cl.180 diagrams are 5 car and the 26 others are formed up as primarily 13 x 10 car.

Hitachi currently have 34 sets to meet those 32 diagrams. This week they will be added to by the final acceptance of 800001/2 into the fleet. They have been doing some work on the driver trainer diagrams but have finally been brought up to passenger standard although, with instrumented pans for testing, they will be confined to the driver trainer diagrams for a few months more. That will bring the fleet up to 36 for 32 daily diagrams.

The whole cascade has been bizarre. Largely set by external forces, not least that unbelievably tight IEP contract, it has been the worst set of stock cascade plans I have ever had to devise in 40 years on the railway. At times it has been completely bonkers and if you think we are now on version 6.3b, you will understand that it has been very fraught. It has been like doing ultimate killer Suduko, rather than proper planning.

Hitachi’s lack of delivery has and continues to be lamentable. The persistent short forms because of Hitachi issues are just not acceptable but also both GWR and NR need to ensure the units are presented at the right time for their contracted maintenance downtime. Late on means late off or not off at all and then GWR won’t get it’s rebate payments.

Just what has been going on with the seat res. is unbelievable. Quite how this has occurred is not for these pages and there is now a lot of effort being put in by both sides to sort it all out but this should have been all thought through years ago.

Last Saturday I had the pleasure of travelling to Oxford on an HST. But I agree with the poster about these late boarding announcements at Paddington - we had 6 minutes and it was a real scramble as we left F&S. Class 1 services need at least 10-15 minutes boarding time.

When it is going to be normal again? Hopefully when we finally get trains that work as promised.

Are Hitachi actually contracted to provide trains that operate on Diesel power over most of the network because of the delays to electrification?
Or they making the best out of a certain number trains available subsequently running on mostly diesel power with the presumably higher maintenance requirement?
For instance a Padd to Bristol service should presumably have been all electric by now with negilgable maintenance on the diesels.

Rob F · 2 Nov 2018

CC 72100 said:
Jimm - not at all, your comments are always balanced and insightful.

Where is that ‘Funny’ button when you need it?

Railperf · 2 Nov 2018

paul1609 said:
Are Hitachi actually contracted to provide trains that operate on Diesel power over most of the network because of the delays to electrification?
Or they making the best out of a certain number trains available subsequently running on mostly diesel power with the presumably higher maintenance requirement?
For instance a Padd to Bristol service should presumably have been all electric by now with negilgable maintenance on the diesels.

Wouldn't the Paddington to Bristol service have utilised the electric only IET's releasing the bi-modes for services beyond the wires?

gsnedders · 2 Nov 2018

paul1609 said:
Are Hitachi actually contracted to provide trains that operate on Diesel power over most of the network because of the delays to electrification?
Or they making the best out of a certain number trains available subsequently running on mostly diesel power with the presumably higher maintenance requirement?
For instance a Padd to Bristol service should presumably have been all electric by now with negilgable maintenance on the diesels.

There was a variation to the original contract for the late-running electrification; remember originally the majority of trains would have had one a single diesel engine that would essentially never be used.

WelshBluebird · 2 Nov 2018

jimm said:
But whether you like the meanings of plain old English words or not (apparently not), occasional, random short-forming – the thing that is actually happening on GWR, affecting different services on different days and at different times - is not routine, regular, frequent, planned, deliberate, systematic or any other word you or anyone else cares to pick.

But you are just arguing semantics now.
Most "normal" people would probably think an event happening multiple times a week (which is the case in terms of 5 cars instead of 10) is a regular occurrence.
Sure it may not be planned (though some certainly are), it may not be deliberate (again, though some certainly are) and it may not be "frequent" or "routine" when you consider how many high speed services GWR run, but in the eyes of the passenger, something that happens fairly often (aka multiple times a week) is "regular" and "frequent".

43096 · 2 Nov 2018

jimm said:
I have never said that there are not short forms out there, have I?

But whether you like the meanings of plain old English words or not (apparently not), occasional, random short-forming – the thing that is actually happening on GWR, affecting different services on different days and at different times - is not routine, regular, frequent, planned, deliberate, systematic or any other word you or anyone else cares to pick.

On Monday, presumably one of the days you are referring to, GWR rolling stock was all over the place at the start of the day after the major disruption caused by the overhead wire fault in West London on Sunday, but don't let that get in the way of having a rant, will you?

And at least a train of some sort is operating in those cases on GWR - I don't recommend trying to catch a train in some parts of Wales at the moment - see https://www.journeycheck.com/tfwrail/ - rather a lot of let-down passengers there.

Oh deary me, what do we find when we look at the saintly Virgin's Journeycheck page right now

A five vice 10 Class 221 formation was also in use on some Chester route services earlier in the day. I expect most of the passengers to and from Chester and the North Wales Coast were perfectly happy to use what was provided, rather than have to wait another hour for the next service.

You carry on playing with your dictionary. In the real world, short forming is a daily occurrence - most people would describe that as "regular". One 5-vice-10 out today according to journeycheck, in case you are wondering.

I'm not sure what the relevance of Virgin or TfW is - other than you trying to deflect from the issue(s) at hand. We're talking about GWR. It is rather interesting, too, to read Clarence Yard's rather more informed commentary as to what is happening, rather then your repeated standard corporate PR messages - who are you really, Karen Boswell or Mark Hopwood (if so, we've finally found him!)?

Mitchell Hurd · 2 Nov 2018

Wow - I don't think I've come across this sort of desperate message in that a service should not be shortformed. Sounds like a 5-car IET on the 12:03 from Paddington to Penzance is nearly a case of a police assistance waiting to happen!

northernbelle · 2 Nov 2018

Mitchell Hurd said:
Wow - I don't think I've come across this sort of desperate message in that a service should not be shortformed. Sounds like a 5-car IET on the 12:03 from Paddington to Penzance is nearly a case of a police assistance waiting to happen!

As I've pointed out repeatedly over the last few days - the 1203 Paddington to Penzance, on some days, is very much in need of a 9 or 10 car IET.

However, that does not automatically mean that when a 5-car is provided instead that standing room Armageddon is inevitable, as witnessed earlier this week where there were plenty of seats available on the 5-car unit provided.

Sean Emmett · 2 Nov 2018

fgwrich said:
This is another issue that I have also noticed a lot more recently. I recently took a trip down to Devon on the 13:03 HST. There were 3 HST sets sat in Platforms 1-3 at Paddington for the 15 minute duration I was there for. Eventually, at 13:00 the 13:03 Was announced leading to a mad crush on the platform as people scrambled for the the 13:03 Plymouth on Platform 2 and the slightly delayed (and late announced!) 13:00 to Bristol on Platform 3. It's an issue which really needs addressing but seems to be getting worse, and apparently ended up leaving passengers with reservations behind as a result.

It also means massive congestion on the country end footbridge to/from the H & C.

Most folk on here will be looking at National Rail, RTT, OTT, Traksy, Tiger etc to get advance gen on the platform number, but they aren't always accurate. Meanwhile Jo public gears up for the stampede.

RPS colleague reports 07.30 PAD PNZ is 2x800 today, 30 mins late at Plymouth.

GWR Class 800

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