GWR Class 800

[Peter Sarf]

If you are trying to suggest I an an 'IET fan' as opposed to an 'HST fan' then I would have to say that I am neither.

I am simply of the opinion that the HSTs have had their day after 40+ years of sterling service and that the IETs deserve a fair crack of the whip, in spite of the often hysterical (sometimes hysterically funny) and often utterly unjustified and repetitive criticism that has been levelled against them in threads here for the best part of a decade, much of it long before Hitachi had started to build a single train.



Contorted?

Please enlighten us as to how GWR was meant to train its drivers to operate IETs when the section of track this was supposed to be happening on - Reading-Didcot - was not available to them for this purpose from May to September last year, because of technical issues involving the trains and signalling kit not getting on.

How hard is it to grasp the difficulties that might cause when trying to give drivers hands-on, live railway experience of operating the trains and all the on-board systems?

As a result, the training programme was seriously delayed, leading to many of the problems with crew shortages we saw earlier this year, as there simply weren't enough IET-trained drivers and train mangers to go around.

That reminds me, I cannot recall when I last read about the huge mountainous slope in the middle of the carriages. Has that problem been resolved or did it never really exist ?. I mention that because opinions based on no experience are the only thing worse than teething problems. We will look back in five years time and have to remind ourselves what went on in the first few years. Most new designs have teething problems - even my beloved HSTs !.

I have just spent a few days catching up on the thread.

From my own observations there are now a lot of these trains (800 & 802) in service.

From my own point of ignorance I don't like engines under coaches. That is an ergonomic point of view - but I am happy to be wrong so we will see how good the sound proofing and vibration proofing is after a few years. They need to be better than voyagers were when I used them about a decade ago.

From reports of others I have to worry about the comfort of seating - if I ever travel on one. I must say nowadays most of my train travel is restricted to Greater London and I have noticed how awful seats are becoming there. Indeed road coaches are the same - too upright. I cannot relax in them and I am considering taking a pillow to put behind the small of my back. Only problem is that my long legs already reach the seat in front. In my opinion it is simply caused by the desire to install more seats closer together so they have to be more upright. Might be better to have areas with no seats and charge a third class fare for people who are prepared to stand !. That is "progress" though - what we really need to do is reduce the population !.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

From reports of others I have to worry about the comfort of seating - if I ever travel on one. I must say nowadays most of my train travel is restricted to Greater London and I have noticed how awful seats are becoming there. Indeed road coaches are the same - too upright.

Almost all road coaches have recliners, so put it back a bit!

 

[Darandio]

Without wishing to backseat moderate, this thread would be much better if it wasn't HST fans v IET fans.

I really cannot see it happening, it's been going on for far too long now.

GWR are making the most of the publicity though, whether good or bad. If you are unlucky enough to end up delayed on a GWR service then you can now be prepared to pass the time with their official IET jigsaw!

https://www.dpsimulation.org.uk/311018-gwrjigsaw.html

 

[CC 72100]

If you are trying to suggest I an an 'IET fan' as opposed to an 'HST fan' then I would have to say that I am neither.

I am simply of the opinion that the HSTs have had their day after 40+ years of sterling service and that the IETs deserve a fair crack of the whip, in spite of the often hysterical (sometimes hysterically funny) and often utterly unjustified and repetitive criticism that has been levelled against them in threads here for the best part of a decade, much of it long before Hitachi had started to build a single train.



Contorted?

Please enlighten us as to how GWR was meant to train its drivers to operate IETs when the section of track this was supposed to be happening on - Reading-Didcot - was not available to them for this purpose from May to September last year, because of technical issues involving the trains and signalling kit not getting on.

How hard is it to grasp the difficulties that might cause when trying to give drivers hands-on, live railway experience of operating the trains and all the on-board systems?

As a result, the training programme was seriously delayed, leading to many of the problems with crew shortages we saw earlier this year, as there simply weren't enough IET-trained drivers and train mangers to go around.

Jimm - not at all, your comments are always balanced and insightful.

 

[Class37.4]

I really cannot see it happening, it's been going on for far too long now.

GWR are making the most of the publicity though, whether good or bad. If you are unlucky enough to end up delayed on a GWR service then you can now be prepared to pass the time with their official IET jigsaw!

https://www.dpsimulation.org.uk/311018-gwrjigsaw.html

Well you’ve got to say the moaning about IET verses HST is fairly pointless the HST are going end of, and if you don’t like IET well that’s just tough basically lump it or find an alternative mode of transport.

 

[Geoff DC]

The IET passenger experience could be greatly improved, and whilst this isn't likely to be anytime soon, feedback on the trains could influence improvements at some future point.

At 71, I know that it is highly unlikely that there will be any replacement in my lifetime so the best I can hope for is some improvement & that DaFT and GWR respond to customer feedback.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The IET passenger experience could be greatly improved, and whilst this isn't likely to be anytime soon, feedback on the trains could influence improvements at some future point.

Quite possibly. While they don't have modern benefits like low-floor and level access, by say mid-2000s standards they are just a train - a metal tube with windows. You can fit whatever seats you like (or even just better shaped cushions) and paint/panel it whatever colour you like, and so there's a fair chance they could be changed in 20 years' time. Not a lot of the 1980s and 1990s DMUs still have the original seats, for instance.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Almost all road coaches have recliners, so put it back a bit!

Its true most coach seats recline. Not an easy option if someone is sat behind you mind !. I find they don't recline enough - strangely, but it helps. Don't seem to get reclining seats on trains I use even in first class nowadays - how about 800s ?. They also move back to the upright position as soon as you lean forward thus meaning you have to shove em back again at the person behind you .

 

[Goldfish62]

and if you don’t like IET well that’s just tough basically lump it or find an alternative mode of transport.

Haha, typical railway attitude!

 

[CMRail]

It’s a debate that no one will never agree on, despite the facts available. Most people who prefer the HST have valid reasons, others because they like the trains, others who like the age of the trains.

I find points bere useless hence sends people into debate and furtherly causes another argument.

Jimm is rightly telling facts, not saying things like “i like the IET because it is better” or if opposite “HSTs are better because they have locos.”

Points like broadgauge is suggesting are valid, informative and straight to the point. I may disagree but shock and horror, so do many others!

 

[Class37.4]

Haha, typical railway attitude!

Well that’s the reality and moaning about it on here isnt going to change it.

 

[43096]

Well you’ve got to say the moaning about IET verses HST is fairly pointless the HST are going end of, and if you don’t like IET well that’s just tough basically lump it or find an alternative mode of transport.

I have to travel Reading to Bristol on Friday. I’ll drive. Another customer lost to the railway.

 

[Goldfish62]

Well that’s the reality and moaning about it on here isnt going to change it.

No, you're right, it's not. However, I don't see a problem with moaning on here. No one is forcing anyone to read the posts.

 

[Class37.4]

I have to travel Reading to Bristol on Friday. I’ll drive. Another customer lost to the railway.

I don’t like voyagers so as a result I have avoided travelling XC as much as possible for years but me moaning about it wont change that, of course people are free to moan but seems a pointless exercise to me

 

[jayah]

It’s a debate that no one will never agree on, despite the facts available. Most people who prefer the HST have valid reasons, others because they like the trains, others who like the age of the trains.

I find points bere useless hence sends people into debate and furtherly causes another argument.

Jimm is rightly telling facts, not saying things like “i like the IET because it is better” or if opposite “HSTs are better because they have locos.”

Points like broadgauge is suggesting are valid, informative and straight to the point. I may disagree but shock and horror, so do many others!

There aren't really any facts.

There are no conclusive stats on short-formed trains or how many people were actually affected. The reasons for not keeping more HSTs longer aren't really known and terms like regular and occasional are debatable especially in the absence of data above.

If all else fails, train design blame DfT, train faults will soon be Hitachi's fault and track faults are Network Rail.

And the blame train rolls on without anything getting better.

 

[43096]

The reasons for not keeping more HSTs longer aren't really known

They are known. All the HSTs that have gone off-lease so far have done so because Angel has re-leased them to ScotRail. At the time, there was a planned gap of around 3 months between introduction of the first IEPs to passenger use and off-leasing of the first HST set, to give some contingency. How long do you continue to pay for two fleets for? Hitachi have had an age to get this right - much longer than the majority of new train orders - and have failed, with delivery delays getting longer, not shorter.

 

[hwl]

The reasons for not keeping more HSTs longer aren't really known

Yes they are, Scotrail has agreed to lease lots of the Angel owned Power Cars and Mk3s especially TSOs. They have gone off lease / are going off lease and there isn't anything magical or secret about that, they are already going later than agreed. The situation will improve soon (weeks?) when the HSTs bits that are going elsewhere have ALL gone leaving a reasonably sized Porterbrook fleet of HSTs that can hang around as needed.
GWR are also continuing to lease so power cars and Mk3s (also mostly TSOs) to solve the DMU shortage

 

[Geoff DC]

I don’t like voyagers so as a result I have avoided travelling XC as much as possible for years but me moaning about it wont change that, of course people are free to moan but seems a pointless exercise to me

However with the introduction of Voyagers Mark 2 (IETs) to GWR - XC services through Cornwall now start to be more appealing - 1st Class in a voyager is possibly better than 1st Class on a GWR IET

 

[swt_passenger]

...Only problem is that my long legs already reach the seat in front. In my opinion it is simply caused by the desire to install more seats closer together so they have to be more upright. Might be better to have areas with no seats and charge a third class fare for people who are prepared to stand !. That is "progress" though - what we really need to do is reduce the population.

There are also reports within this long thread that the seat spacing is actually better than GWR HSTs, and there are more tables - which turns out to be as specified by DfT. But there were also complaints based on assumptions about tight spacing before they were ever delivered, even when the figures in the train spec were quoted. Weird eh!

 

[jayah]

They are known. All the HSTs that have gone off-lease so far have done so because Angel has re-leased them to ScotRail. At the time, there was a planned gap of around 3 months between introduction of the first IEPs to passenger use and off-leasing of the first HST set, to give some contingency. How long do you continue to pay for two fleets for? Hitachi have had an age to get this right - much longer than the majority of new train orders - and have failed, with delivery delays getting longer, not shorter.

You aren't paying for a new fleet if Hitachi are late delivering it.

Yes they are, Scotrail has agreed to lease lots of the Angel owned Power Cars and Mk3s especially TSOs. They have gone off lease / are going off lease and there isn't anything magical or secret about that, they are already going later than agreed. The situation will improve soon (weeks?) when the HSTs bits that are going elsewhere have ALL gone leaving a reasonably sized Porterbrook fleet of HSTs that can hang around as needed.
GWR are also continuing to lease so power cars and Mk3s (also mostly TSOs) to solve the DMU shortage

Scotrail are only expecting to use 10 of them by December and 9 of them without the chemical toilets. There must be quite a few parked somewhere. Similarly there are a lot of IETs in the country now. 802015/6 for example were in the country in August, are they out working yet?

 

[Mag_seven]

There are also reports within this long thread that the seat spacing is actually better than GWR HSTs, and there are more tables - which turns out to be as specified by DfT.

Having experienced Standard Class in one of the new Eurostar units last night, I would suggest that Standard in the new GWR Class 800s is vastly superior in terms of "bay of four table seats" provision.

 

[CMRail]

You aren't paying for a new fleet if Hitachi are late delivering it.

Scotrail are only expecting to use 10 of them by December and 9 of them without the chemical toilets. There must be quite a few parked somewhere. Similarly there are a lot of IETs in the country now. 802015/6 for example were in the country in August, are they out working yet?

No. The roll out phase of the IETs are behind due to electrification delays and all of that. Right now we should have all IETs with us, wires to Cardiff and Oxford and nearly Bristol. By your sense, if I order say a phone case on a amazon, then my delivery gets delayed, I then cancel my order? No, I don’t, I wait longer and deal with it.

 

[CMRail]

More tables on IET funnily enough. 24 standard class tables on a five coach IET compared to a whopping 10 on a high density HST. Low density is exactly the same minus 2 due to the buffet. No excuses there?

52 on a nine car set.

 

[northernbelle]

Some of these more recent posts are rather refreshing and certainly more balanced than the hysterical noise I often end up trawling through on these forums. It is tiresome to see people assert their opinions as black and white fact, especially when it's the same comment over and over again. It has been really interesting looking back at some of the earlier hysteria and seeing how those assertions compare with experiences we are now having with the 800s.

A selection of previous Class 800 based assertions I've read or been told directly, set against subsequent experience/evidence:

• The ramp in the DPTS/DPTF vehicles is too steep and will cause problems for the trolley - Trolleys appear to be successfully navigating their way into the driving cars in both First and Standard class
• The IETs cannot work west of Plymouth due to being too long for the Royal Albert Bridge and Cornish curves - evidently they can
• Running 800s in diesel mode will mean the GWML timetable will have to be ripped apart - Class 800s are quite happily maintaining HST timings in diesel mode where they need to
• More people prefer a buffet to a trolley service - always seems to be an opinion asserted as a fact. Who has the data on this? Sales data? Anything other then anecdotal "I spoke to X and they said Y" type 'evidence'?
• Performance of an IET over the gradients is inferior to an HST - Define 'performance'... Speed on a dry rail? Braking ability going downhill? - HST clearly superior to an 800 in going up hill in perfect conditions above about 40mph. Not so sure about an 802. What about performance in Autumn leaf fall as per today? Not sure the crew of this morning's 0505 PNZ-PAD would agree that HST performance on the gradients was up to very much after being stuck for 2 hours. There's a far bigger picture than the velocity a train manages to breast Dainton bank.
• Huge problems exist on the GWML with 5 car trains running in place of HSTs/longer IETs - there are clearly short-forms causing problems, but the assertion that a 5-car set in place of a 9 or 10 is automatically a major issue is quite wrong. Plenty of headcodes are suitable for a 5-car IET and I'm aware of GWR/Hitachi trying to ensure any short forms are focused on these. Not always possible, I know and little comfort for those on a wedged 5-car service as is happening too frequently. A case in point to the default hysteria on this issue is that even yesterday's 1203 Paddington to Penzance - formed of a 5 car - had plenty of spare seats available leaving both Paddington and Reading.
• HST clearly the superior train - yeah, have a chat with Wabtec and Scotrail about that one!

Facts, data and a view of the bigger 'HST vs IET' picture is a far more intelligent discussion and I applaud the likes of "Jimm" for not resorting to anecdote to peddle their opinions.

 

[CMRail]

Some of these more recent posts are rather refreshing and certainly more balanced than the hysterical noise I often end up trawling through on these forums. It is tiresome to see people assert their opinions as black and white fact, especially when it's the same comment over and over again. It has been really interesting looking back at some of the earlier hysteria and seeing how those assertions compare with experiences we are now having with the 800s.

A selection of previous Class 800 based assertions I've read or been told directly, set against subsequent experience/evidence:

• The ramp in the DPTS/DPTF vehicles is too steep and will cause problems for the trolley - Trolleys appear to be successfully navigating their way into the driving cars in both First and Standard class
• The IETs cannot work west of Plymouth due to being too long for the Royal Albert Bridge and Cornish curves - evidently they can
• Running 800s in diesel mode will mean the GWML timetable will have to be ripped apart - Class 800s are quite happily maintaining HST timings in diesel mode where they need to
• More people prefer a buffet to a trolley service - always seems to be an opinion asserted as a fact. Who has the data on this? Sales data? Anything other then anecdotal "I spoke to X and they said Y" type 'evidence'?
• Performance of an IET over the gradients is inferior to an HST - Define 'performance'... Speed on a dry rail? Braking ability going downhill? - HST clearly superior to an 800 in going up hill in perfect conditions above about 40mph. Not so sure about an 802. What about performance in Autumn leaf fall as per today? Not sure the crew of this morning's 0505 PNZ-PAD would agree that HST performance on the gradients was up to very much after being stuck for 2 hours. There's a far bigger picture than the velocity a train manages to breast Dainton bank.
• Huge problems exist on the GWML with 5 car trains running in place of HSTs/longer IETs - there are clearly short-forms causing problems, but the assertion that a 5-car set in place of a 9 or 10 is automatically a major issue is quite wrong. Plenty of headcodes are suitable for a 5-car IET and I'm aware of GWR/Hitachi trying to ensure any short forms are focused on these. Not always possible, I know and little comfort for those on a wedged 5-car service as is happening too frequently. A case in point to the default hysteria on this issue is that even yesterday's 1203 Paddington to Penzance - formed of a 5 car - had plenty of spare seats available leaving both Paddington and Reading.
• HST clearly the superior train - yeah, have a chat with Wabtec and Scotrail about that one!

Facts, data and a view of the bigger 'HST vs IET' picture is a far more intelligent discussion and I applaud the likes of "Jimm" for not resorting to anecdote to peddle their opinions.

Good on you for writhing that and many of us appreciate however the managing directors and co who are on this forum will try to prove you wrong.

I can also add more facts. “Downgraded catering on the IET.” 50 new customer hosts have been hired to provide 4CH per 10 car set. FC host in charge of FC and Kitchen food e.g Soup, Bacon, Sandwiches. GWR are working on a new menu.

Short forms will not occur often once delivery is completed unless there is a set fault. However with 93 IET sets I would doubt that the train wouldn’t be replaced during the day.

GWR are trained and experienced funnily enough and they know what they are doing. Anyone who travels often on these trains will understand the benefit in capacity which we are great full for.

Period 3 performance shows IETs 20% more reliable than HSTs, coming from Dan Panes a GWR senior management. They are keeping to HST times well and there is absolutely no need for bigger fuel tanks for new ones, they work fine. On my Swindon-Gloucester run we are at stations for longer times due to the good acceleration and boarding is faster.

A comment I have just found on GWR’s twitter says “A HST could do it better & wouldn’t break down ” where the video of the Class 802 was working well up the hill next to Totnes.

Can we have more facts please, not just the same every post like certain individuals. Thank you .

 

[jayah]

Some of these more recent posts are rather refreshing and certainly more balanced than the hysterical noise I often end up trawling through on these forums. It is tiresome to see people assert their opinions as black and white fact, especially when it's the same comment over and over again. It has been really interesting looking back at some of the earlier hysteria and seeing how those assertions compare with experiences we are now having with the 800s.

A selection of previous Class 800 based assertions I've read or been told directly, set against subsequent experience/evidence:

• The ramp in the DPTS/DPTF vehicles is too steep and will cause problems for the trolley - Trolleys appear to be successfully navigating their way into the driving cars in both First and Standard class
• The IETs cannot work west of Plymouth due to being too long for the Royal Albert Bridge and Cornish curves - evidently they can
• Running 800s in diesel mode will mean the GWML timetable will have to be ripped apart - Class 800s are quite happily maintaining HST timings in diesel mode where they need to
• More people prefer a buffet to a trolley service - always seems to be an opinion asserted as a fact. Who has the data on this? Sales data? Anything other then anecdotal "I spoke to X and they said Y" type 'evidence'?
• Performance of an IET over the gradients is inferior to an HST - Define 'performance'... Speed on a dry rail? Braking ability going downhill? - HST clearly superior to an 800 in going up hill in perfect conditions above about 40mph. Not so sure about an 802. What about performance in Autumn leaf fall as per today? Not sure the crew of this morning's 0505 PNZ-PAD would agree that HST performance on the gradients was up to very much after being stuck for 2 hours. There's a far bigger picture than the velocity a train manages to breast Dainton bank.
• Huge problems exist on the GWML with 5 car trains running in place of HSTs/longer IETs - there are clearly short-forms causing problems, but the assertion that a 5-car set in place of a 9 or 10 is automatically a major issue is quite wrong. Plenty of headcodes are suitable for a 5-car IET and I'm aware of GWR/Hitachi trying to ensure any short forms are focused on these. Not always possible, I know and little comfort for those on a wedged 5-car service as is happening too frequently. A case in point to the default hysteria on this issue is that even yesterday's 1203 Paddington to Penzance - formed of a 5 car - had plenty of spare seats available leaving both Paddington and Reading.
• HST clearly the superior train - yeah, have a chat with Wabtec and Scotrail about that one!

Facts, data and a view of the bigger 'HST vs IET' picture is a far more intelligent discussion and I applaud the likes of "Jimm" for not resorting to anecdote to peddle their opinions.

Aside from some straw man arguments dredged up there, there is no data on short-formed trains nor on catering sales. I suspect the increased costs from paired sets are far more pertinent than the actual change in sales but again there is no data.

5 car substitutions are clearly a big problem even though the number of them and numbers of passengers affected isn't known.

 

[jayah]

No. The roll out phase of the IETs are behind due to electrification delays and all of that. Right now we should have all IETs with us, wires to Cardiff and Oxford and nearly Bristol. By your sense, if I order say a phone case on a amazon, then my delivery gets delayed, I then cancel my order? No, I don’t, I wait longer and deal with it.

All of what?

I keep hearing Hitachi are late delivering the trains, are you saying Hitachi are paid by the month for trains they are still building?

Were the entire 802 order not Bi-Mode?
Where are they and why are sets in the country for months apparently not in traffic?

What has happened to the 14 or so HSTs not being used in Scotland this year?

 

[CMRail]

Aside from some straw man arguments dredged up there, there is no data on short-formed trains nor on catering sales. I suspect the increased costs from paired sets are far more pertinent than the actual change in sales but again there is no data.

5 car substitutions are clearly a big problem even though the number of them and numbers of passengers affected isn't known.

Not all short formation services have a major effect. During the holidays, the 17:30, in the top ten busiest intercity services, was not as busy. Off peak Cheltenham’s run fine and so do some Bristol/Cardiff. Imagine if HSTs came in halves in 1975, you wouldn’t moan as often because this wouldn’t exist.

 

[CMRail]

All of what?

I keep hearing Hitachi are late delivering the trains, are you saying Hitachi are paid by the month for trains they are still building?

Were the entire 802 order not Bi-Mode?
Where are they and why are sets in the country for months apparently not in traffic?

What has happened to the 14 or so HSTs not being used in Scotland this year?

Your post says that you are not paying hitachi for a late train. You are not paying hitachi but you are sending trains that lease has ran out, ScotRail need to refurbished. This means that trains are unavailable leading to 5 car units running on 10/9 car diagrams. Class 800/802s are both effected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are also reports within this long thread that the seat spacing is actually better than GWR HSTs, and there are more tables - which turns out to be as specified by DfT. But there were also complaints based on assumptions about tight spacing before they were ever delivered, even when the figures in the train spec were quoted. Weird eh!

If there is one thing you can say that's good about the Class 800 seats, it is that the spacing is really very generous. If the poster you quoted doesn't fit, they must be VERY tall - at 6' 4" with a very long upper leg (the measurement that matters most when it comes to seat spacing) I have at least 2" spare. The spacing is about the same as priority seating in Voyagers and Pendolinos in the regular seats, and the priority ones are cavernous.

I still don't like the actual seats, but there is not a lack of legroom - far from it.