matacaster
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I doubt that its only the name which will get dropped in due course!
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Northern Powerhouse Rail / HS3 Timeline and Ideas
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I doubt that its only the name which will get dropped in due course!
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Joseph_Locke
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This, sort of. TfN's stated goals (Manchester to Leeds in 30 minutes) don't need "high speed" - 125mph is perfectly fast enough to meet this aspiration, and 20 minutes Liverpool to Manchester come to that.
Also, how can TfN decide anything about this until HS2/MCC/DfT/TfGM have decided what they are building at Piccadilly?
I think the 104% might be 104% growth, to 204% of today's numbers, BTW. That would be in line with other forecasts for similar future dates.
WatcherZero
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Lot of NPR fluff pieces this week, looks like its setting the stage for something interesting to be published in next couple of weeks.
jonesy3001
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And then thrown in the shredder by grayling because its not happening in london.
matacaster
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I predict a delay owing to need to produce a further lengthy report (invent any report title here). Lack of proximity to London is problematic. Project will not be canned yet as still plenty of PR mileage yet, but will be when the estimates come in at around £5 billion, later rising to £10 billion.
Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/business/rail-boss-says-21-minute-15290129
Submission to Government is due on December 6 2018, outlining plans within the next month I assume before submission
Submission to Government is due on December 6 2018, outlining plans within the next month I assume before submission
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Because the idea seems to be that TfN are also involved in the decision making process for Piccadilly so they all decide together. Or continue arguing together about it.
Bantamzen
Established Member
Is the correct answer.
"The government remains committed to the Northern Powerhouse Rail project, but we want to explore all options and so we have commissioned a further series of reports that will hopefully identify the best rail solutions for the North of England, whilst remaining within our financial expectations. We fully expect these to be decided upon during the lifetime of this Government".
Or in other words:
"The government is already decided that £5Bn is way too much to spend just for Northerners to go knocking about spending their benefits on Ale Trail trips using cheap rover tickets, so we'll stall them until just before the next general election where we'll announce plans to start, but at double the cost and that this will have to come from the NHS budget or some other excuse written on the back of a packet of cigarettes. That should then kill the idea stone dead, and distract the public from the cuts to both rail and NHS that we'll need if we are ever to get those juicy corporate tax cuts through the way Trump did..." *
(* This is of course all in jest, probably....
)
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Sticking to the idea's side of this thread, on the basis of previous comments regarding routing it via the Calder Valley and a new tunnel from somewhere probably West of Sowerby Bridge to near Littleborough and building upon the idea to reinstate the Pickel Bridge Line, how about a chord off this line, just south of Bailiffe Bridge? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?...ll=53.70845773383138,-1.9082061818459124&z=11
Obviously it would have to be tunneled and Im skeptical if it would be feasible.
Obviously it would have to be tunneled and Im skeptical if it would be feasible.
Islandexpress
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Better make sure Elland station has about 6 platforms and the worlds biggest station car park then!
Halifaxlad
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Well thankfully its not built yet!
Although it could be moved to Greetland and built on loops.
I thought about an above ground connection on a viaduct, although I think that might be too controversial.
Why can they not ressurect thevwoodhead route and ( being new to the railway scene ) build a link from the Sheffield terminus that crosses the Ecml and onto the Hull Route improving line speeds on that if practical to 140mph . Would they need a bypass of Goole for a slower ' stopping service ' ? .
Clearly as you approach Hull it doesn't appear to have any scope for four tracks ( to give a fast up/down line and slow stopping lines.
So would there be the need for a new route Into hull?.
Similarly why must the Scunthorpe line miss out on Electrification , better trains than Pacers . That is a key route to the major ports and industry . That line needed a bypass in place when the coal tip collapsed .
At the time Network rail surveyed the section of Axholme joint to Haxey junction to allow an alternative route.
I mention that line also because Doncaster Airport has aspirations of a Rail link off the ECML .
With all these different needs it seems a real strategy is needed for the whole region .
Clearly as you approach Hull it doesn't appear to have any scope for four tracks ( to give a fast up/down line and slow stopping lines.
So would there be the need for a new route Into hull?.
Similarly why must the Scunthorpe line miss out on Electrification , better trains than Pacers . That is a key route to the major ports and industry . That line needed a bypass in place when the coal tip collapsed .
At the time Network rail surveyed the section of Axholme joint to Haxey junction to allow an alternative route.
I mention that line also because Doncaster Airport has aspirations of a Rail link off the ECML .
With all these different needs it seems a real strategy is needed for the whole region .
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Someone on here would probably say 'they're no demand for it'. I however quite like the idea although first I think the more direct line to Penistone via Stocksbridge should reopen and the whole lot upgraded (straightened out) to Huddersfield. That way a HS line from Sheffield would cost a lot less and be partially installed. Then do the East to West.
THEY IS JUST NO NEED FOR HIGH SPEED LINES (Says the inside of me) One Bradford Cross Rail is done, perhaps a new service from Sheffield to Blackpool North via Bradford or a continuation of a service from Sheffield?
Halifaxlad
Established Member
What does everyone think of this?
Its taken from 'The ‘Northern Link’ project - Prospectus document September 2018' page 13.
To me it sounds like its referring to Bradford as a HS2 Station and Halifax as a HS3 Station. If that is the case, then I wouldn't bother building terminating platforms for HS2 at Bradford I would just run them through on this new line to Manchester and terminate them they're, since apparently NPR platforms might be in a box under the HS2 platforms at Piccadilly Station! Could probably cut the cost down as well.
Its taken from 'The ‘Northern Link’ project - Prospectus document September 2018' page 13.
To me it sounds like its referring to Bradford as a HS2 Station and Halifax as a HS3 Station. If that is the case, then I wouldn't bother building terminating platforms for HS2 at Bradford I would just run them through on this new line to Manchester and terminate them they're, since apparently NPR platforms might be in a box under the HS2 platforms at Piccadilly Station! Could probably cut the cost down as well.
What's the Northern Link project? Who's proposing it?
[Edit: web search suggests it's SELRAP, the campaign to reopen Skipton-Colne.]
HS2 most definitely doesn't include Bradford or Halifax. NPR (formerly HS3) does include Bradford. I haven't heard about it including Halifax.
[Edit: web search suggests it's SELRAP, the campaign to reopen Skipton-Colne.]
HS2 most definitely doesn't include Bradford or Halifax. NPR (formerly HS3) does include Bradford. I haven't heard about it including Halifax.
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Halifaxlad
Established Member
Unless of course they have decided to run HS2 trains straight through Leeds instead and terminate them in Manchester. It could be why so much talk about why we need HS2.
I kinda of hope so as otherwise getting a through line across Bradford will be very expensive if its just going to be funded through NPHR.
It would be very expensive whoever funds it!
Well, because trains would need to be threaded through the already congested line between Piccadilly and Guide Bridge (and - to a lesser extent - Hadfield); because the tunnel through the Pennines is now in another use; because the arrangements at the Sheffield end would be tight.
The big issue - IMO - is that there is no single transpennine route which would satisfy a broad enough range of requirements. How do you serve all of the following (in vague order of significance):
Manchester
Leeds
Sheffield
Bradford
Wakefield
Huddersfield
Halifax
Halifaxlad
Established Member
At the end of the day I think unless something major is spent on rail in Bradford, then it will be politically damaging to say the least. Especially since Bradford Council seems to be under the impression that NPR is a brand new line from end to end and that they are supposedly getting a new station upon this line.
From the rumors circulating and speculating around a tunnel through to Littleborough I suspect this new section will be just that or through Huddersfield via a reopened Leeds New Line.
Either way unless Bradford is finally connected I can't seen any new station being built, just a big political backlash and yet more failing Grayling remarks!
Halifaxlad
Established Member
Just read this YP article that states:
and Northern Powerhouse Rail, a project which will cut rail journey times across the North including through a new east-west rail line between Manchester, Bradford, Leeds and York.
'Susan Hinchcliffe: Transport is key to our region’s success' 20-11-18
Read more at: https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...r&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn
Never knew that this would incorporate new bits between Leeds and York, unless of course this is just the YP but its certainly interesting.
and Northern Powerhouse Rail, a project which will cut rail journey times across the North including through a new east-west rail line between Manchester, Bradford, Leeds and York.
'Susan Hinchcliffe: Transport is key to our region’s success' 20-11-18
Read more at: https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co...r&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn
Never knew that this would incorporate new bits between Leeds and York, unless of course this is just the YP but its certainly interesting.
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Unfortunately, the main purpose of 'NPR' is as a rhetorical device, rather than an actual railway. It's a sort of grab bag of all the bits of the north HS2 doesn't want to cover (ie about 80% of it). Then, when anyone asks why HS2 covers so little of the north, hS2's defenders can say that it doesn't need to, because HS3 will
quantinghome
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That seems to be an unnecessarily pessimistic way of looking at it. Sure, we have our doubts about the government's commitment to NPR, and the name is clearly a product of marketing rather than purely descriptive. That said, it surely makes sense to have HS2 and NPR as separate projects. Saying "HS2 covers so little of the north" is like saying "the M1 covers so little of the North". Was the M62 "a sort of grab bag of all the bits of the north [the M1] doesn't want to cover"? No - it's obviously a different route running E-W rather than N-S. Same with NPR and HS2.
Surely it would make more sense for HS2 to go through Manchester on to Bradford, Leeds and the North East, with a connecting line back from South of the airport to Warrington and Liverpool?
Combining HS2 and NPR would make better use of very expensive capacity.
Combining HS2 and NPR would make better use of very expensive capacity.
quantinghome
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jonesy3001
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The northern powerhouse rail hub station at Piccadilly is that whats supposed to be platforms 15 and 16?
quantinghome
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Great. That plan is taken directly from Northern Powerhouse Rail's most recent proposals.
I'm not clear what you mean. What services are you proposing which are not served by the current plan?
NPR cannot replace the Eastern leg of HS2. For starters, as you can see from the plan, NPR plans to use parts of the HS2 Eastern leg to improve connections from Leeds to Sheffield and York. No HS2 Eastern Branch means Sheffield and the East Midlands are left out, and Leeds to Birmingham suffers from a very circuitous route via Manchester.
That's a different scheme which needs building immediately and has been waiting for approval by Chris Grayling for over a year. The NPR station at Piccadilly would be much more substantial, likely to be integrated with the HS2 station at Piccadilly.
London/Birmingham to Leeds/NE via Manchester.
I am not seeing that as circuitous at all compared to going via Toton, and it would achieve more for less, and quicker.
It is harsh on E Midlands and Sheffield, but they are clearly not such a big market or would have a better service now. I would be tempted to serve them off the ECML using paths freed up of long distance trains.
I am not seeing that as circuitous at all compared to going via Toton, and it would achieve more for less, and quicker.
It is harsh on E Midlands and Sheffield, but they are clearly not such a big market or would have a better service now. I would be tempted to serve them off the ECML using paths freed up of long distance trains.
quantinghome
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OK.... latest HS2 journey time estimates (from https://webarchive.nationalarchives...anchester-west-midlands-leeds-web-version.pdf):
Birmingham - Manchester (on HS2): 41 minutes
Manchester - Leeds (on NPR): 30 minutes
Gives Birmingham - Leeds (via Manchester): 71 minutes
Compare that to:
Birmingham - Leeds (via HS2 eastern leg): 49 minutes
I think we can safely say it's circuitous.
If you think that a new mainline from Manchester to Leeds, involving a huge trans-pennine tunnel and major reconstructions of the existing rail network around those two cities can be designed, consulted on, passed through Parliament and constructed quicker than HS2 eastern leg (which is now hearing the end of the consultation stage) then I'm afraid we're not really on the same page.
Your plan destroys any idea of having a modern rail connection between Birmingham, East Midlands, Sheffield and Leeds that could compete with car journeys. This is a desperately slow and inadequate service at present. If there's a case for NPR, there's also a case for this.
In the absence of an HS2 eastern leg, London to York journeys will still be faster on the existing ECML rather than a circuitous route on HS2-NPR via Manchester. You won't have freed up enough capacity to serve both East Midlands and Sheffield via ECML. And besides, how are you going to connect to the ECML - the current routes from Sheffield to Retford and Nottingham to Grantham are pretty slow, which is why no open access operator is interested in competing with the Midland using these routes. Are you going to upgrade them, or do some more new build (40 to 50 miles of it)?
I'm sorry to appear harsh, but I can't see how your plan offers anything better than what is currently envisaged by building all of HS2 and NPR.
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