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Northern Powerhouse Rail / HS3 Timeline and Ideas

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Halifaxlad

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IF anything is ever built, I suggest the most you might get is a Bradford Parkway, near Low Moor or Laistedyke, with reopening of the Bowling Junction to Laisterdyke direct line. (Looking at maps, there only seem to be a few minor obstructions on the former trackbed)

That's been ruled out in the IRP!

But let's face it a Bradford Crossrail is never going to happen now. There was the slightest, tiniest, vague window of opportunity during the era of Bradford's notorious hole in the city centre of it becoming a reality. But that aspiration was very short lived, and now there is a Broadway shopping centre sized building in the way. Most, if not all people here understand that. The best us Bradfordians can hope for is that some day a West Yorkshire tram network finds it's way here and improves what is quite honestly a pretty poor public transport network in the city, certainly compared to 20 or 30 years ago.

I never seem to understand why people believe that the only opportunity for connecting Bradford existed when there was a hole in the ground. Yes it would have been a lot easier that having to demolish/rebuild partially what is now occupying the big hole but just because something is now in the way doesn't mean its anymore or less likely!

If you look at HS2 the amount of destruction that was to entail just to reach the South bank of Leeds was/is astronomical! A lot of infrastructure projects do require a lot of destruction in particular HS2.

Bradford to Manchester won't ever be 30 minutes unless there's significant investment in new infrastructure - the type of ridiculously expensive new infrastructure you want to be dropped.

Such as a new line between Bradford and Huddersfield ?
 
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Bantamzen

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I never seem to understand why people believe that the only opportunity for connecting Bradford existed when there was a hole in the ground. Yes it would have been a lot easier that having to demolish/rebuild partially what is now occupying the big hole but just because something is now in the way doesn't mean its anymore or less likely!

If you look at HS2 the amount of destruction that was to entail just to reach the South bank of Leeds was/is astronomical! A lot of infrastructure projects do require a lot of destruction in particular HS2.
(Just before I respond to this post, a quick note for those members who get angry at such speculative talk. In no way I am, or indeed the vast majority of people in Bradford suggesting the follow could or should happen, because they won't. Just thought I'd get that in to save some people's blood pressure....)

Well yes you do have a point up to a degree, it would be possible to plough through existing structures to get a connection between the two alignments. However unlike HS2 into Leeds, you would be ploughing through was has become the retail centre of the city, so could cause a few more problems. Now I did mention upthread that when in planning for the shopping centre, there was some discussion on whether it might be possible to incorporate such a link into the design, but obviously this didn't happen. However as I understand it, the design of the existing structure is such that expansion of the site would be possible, though I think this was more for retail opportunities than any rail link.

Another alternative would be to dive under the city, the "simplest" alignment being a north- south one, diving down south of the city around the Bowling area, and emerging someone north along the Canal Road corridor. However this comes with its own problems, the is the Bradford Beck which runs under the centre to consider, as well as a considerable water table. So this would quickly get eye-wateringly expensive. Though not as expensive as Bradford Council's idea of a west-east alignment passing under the site of the Interchange. I have no idea how they proposed getting the line coming in from the west without very long tunnels leading more or less the length of NPR.

Finally, and to put this final option to bed, the old diversionary route from the Calder line towards the Pudsey one is some considerable distance from the centre, and is almost on a similar gradient to the existing Pudsey-bound line. Good luck finding an engineering solution to putting in a station on this slope, in a mainly industrial area higher up than the city it serves, with a road network that gets highly congested.

Such as a new line between Bradford and Huddersfield ?
If any new line ever emerges in the Spen area, its going to be a light tail towards Dewsbury. Quite honestly the best option for the Calder Valley, as suggested above, is to get those juicy wires up. That way times can be brought down a bit, and you get a handy diversionary route for the North TP. Wiring the Aire & Wharfe lines certainly helped the fortunes of these, so let's push for the same down the Calder.
 

Halifaxlad

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(Just before I respond to this post, a quick note for those members who get angry at such speculative talk. In no way I am, or indeed the vast majority of people in Bradford suggesting the follow could or should happen, because they won't. Just thought I'd get that in to save some people's blood pressure....)

I quick note as Im currently heading out.

I don't know if you were specifically referring to me but I never get angry at any posts on here. :p
 

Sonik

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The Marsden - Manchester line makes sense if you want to hit the target of 30 minutes Leeds - Manchester alongside providing additional capacity.
Agreed - if you look at the speed profile proposed for TPRU (i.e. mostly 100mph from Marsden to Leeds, lower speeds on the Manchester side) and the interaction of crossing services (i.e. most congested between Heaton Lodge and Ravensthorpe which TPRU will fix) the IRP rationale behind combining NPR with TPRU becomes very clear.

It also takes Liverpool-Leeds (via Manchester airport) services completely off existing lines through Manchester, freeing the latter up for local Thameslink style services via Castlefeild.

Anything else than what's already proposed in the IRP is going to have a very hard time making a better business case.
 
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Halifaxlad

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Well yes you do have a point up to a degree, it would be possible to plough through existing structures to get a connection between the two alignments. However unlike HS2 into Leeds, you would be ploughing through was has become the retail centre of the city, so could cause a few more problems. Now I did mention upthread that when in planning for the shopping centre, there was some discussion on whether it might be possible to incorporate such a link into the design, but obviously this didn't happen. However as I understand it, the design of the existing structure is such that expansion of the site would be possible, though I think this was more for retail opportunities than any rail link.
I think the shopping centre was designed in such a way to allow it to expand upwards, which may explain why the section adjacent to Well St isn't part of the multistory car park. Its exactly this bit where I reckon a new line could be constructed although the retail units beneath it would probably have to be rebuilt but at least almost all of the centre wouldn't have to be touched.
Another alternative would be to dive under the city, the "simplest" alignment being a north- south one, diving down south of the city around the Bowling area, and emerging someone north along the Canal Road corridor. However this comes with its own problems, the is the Bradford Beck which runs under the centre to consider, as well as a considerable water table. So this would quickly get eye-wateringly expensive. Though not as expensive as Bradford Council's idea of a west-east alignment passing under the site of the Interchange. I have no idea how they proposed getting the line coming in from the west without very long tunnels leading more or less the length of NPR.

I always thought Bradford Councils idea was to simply realign the existing line through the site of the interchange and extend the cutting through to this new proposed station ?

If any new line ever emerges in the Spen area, its going to be a light tail towards Dewsbury. Quite honestly the best option for the Calder Valley, as suggested above, is to get those juicy wires up. That way times can be brought down a bit, and you get a handy diversionary route for the North TP. Wiring the Aire & Wharfe lines certainly helped the fortunes of these, so let's push for the same down the Calder.

Even I don't expect to seen a new line in the Spen area I can't even see light rail using the old formation these days especially where its now in use as a cycle track.

Agreed - if you look at the speed profile proposed for TPRU (i.e. mostly 100mph from Marsden to Leeds, lower speeds on the Manchester side) and the interaction of crossing services (i.e. most congested between Heaton Lodge and Ravensthorpe which TPRU will fix) the IRP rationale behind combining NPR with TPRU becomes very clear.

A while ago it became very clear that TRU was to become part of NPR when we saw the level of investment proposed.

The only thing about it is that it will likely move the pinch point to between Ravensthorpe and Leeds exactly where this new White Rose station will be which will probably end up like Cottingley if we are not careful.

Not so long since I did have an idea of creating a new tunnel just before the existing Morley tunnel, running a new line adjacent to the M62, the M1 and the M621 before joining up with a possible new station on Leeds South Bank as proposed by HS2. Although that would mean reversing (not a popular idea if your in Lancashire for some reason) and would cost a few billions and not serve Bradford.
 
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