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Stagecoach East Kent

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Typhoon

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Oh dear, more changes coming for Folkestone and Hythe from 28th October.....

Some appear to be minor improvements to the rather drastic cutbacks in June, but some of the changes make some routes a bit more confusing.



https://www.stagecoachbus.com/servi...0&hootPostID=3aad75299e44ebaad669bc4b0c8826d4
I'm not surprised. When I was travelling in the area in July and August there was talk on some of the buses of the new routes not working - and these are improvements (by and large).

When I last checked, some of the printed timetables were still not available, maybe the new timetables will come into effect before the June timetables have been printed!
 
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Typhoon

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Are the buses really going down from Sittingbourne each day?

The answer is no. Notices and Proceedings dated 24/09/18 gives an application by Chalkwell for an operating centre of 6 vehicles in Ashford.
 

alex397

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Sadly, the KCC contract route R operated by Chalkwell, which replaced Stagecoach's commercial diversion to their 666, and operated between Eureka Place, Eureka Park, Repton Park and Ashford town centre is being withdrawn from 1st January 2019. Along with the connected school KCC contract WS5.

Back when Stagecoach's E-line operated (which was replaced by the hourly 666), there was a peak demand to the businesses at Eureka Park.
I travelled on the R-line last week from Eureka Place into town, on one of the 2 post-5pm journeys. I was the only passenger. I think that says it all.

Unless another operator steps in with a commercial alternative, this will mean Eureka Park, with its large cinema and various leisure facilities, will have no bus service. Same for Eureka Place - although it is possible to walk and get the frequent Stagecoach 'B'

What a shame passengers have deserted this service, especially considering this is apparently the South East's fastest growing town. Perhaps people don't want to rely on an hourly service, which frequently gets delayed by the abysmal traffic in Ashford.
 

siriain

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There's no way that an hourly service only connecting those sorts of places would ever be attractive or convenient enough to be viable - either because it's too infrequent or doesn't operate when people want to travel or where they travel from. The development of Ashford, unsurprisingly, has not been seriously planned with public transport in mind.
 

alex397

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There's no way that an hourly service only connecting those sorts of places would ever be attractive or convenient enough to be viable - either because it's too infrequent or doesn't operate when people want to travel or where they travel from. The development of Ashford, unsurprisingly, has not been seriously planned with public transport in mind.

Agreed, that is probably why it has failed. I just feel it is a shame, considering the services before it did have a demand. This demand could have grown if the local councils actually made an effort.

I agree with what you say about Ashford. It was well over a year, I believe, that the imaginatively-named 'Bridgefield' development actually gained a bus service, thanks largely to the persistent efforts of Stagecoach. Buses are almost always a second thought outside of the large cities in the UK. I really wish this country would be more forward thinking, but that is very wishful thinking.
 

Typhoon

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Over half the Ashford BC cabinet are councillors from outside the town of Ashford. Possibly significant!
 

paul1609

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Over half the Ashford BC cabinet are councillors from outside the town of Ashford. Possibly significant!
Interesting context. For those of us out on the Isle Of Oxney we believe that we get nothing from Ashford Borough because all the councillors live or work in Ashford 15 miles away. We've only just managed to hold on to our meagre lifeline (312) because its a cross- county service negotiated by East Sussex CC who shame Kent CC in to providing some support.
Its a well known regret in Tenterden that the town should have petitioned to be included in Tunbridge Wells District in the 1974 local authority organisation because of the better treatment its rural communities get compared to Ashford.
 

Typhoon

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Interesting context. For those of us out on the Isle Of Oxney we believe that we get nothing from Ashford Borough because all the councillors live or work in Ashford 15 miles away. We've only just managed to hold on to our meagre lifeline (312) because its a cross- county service negotiated by East Sussex CC who shame Kent CC in to providing some support.
Those in the east of the ward get an even worse service, of course. I thought that the shopper's service was gone when it was announced that Arriva were finishing. The 312 has an interesting history, I believe, and has had numerous operators. I first travelled on it when it was part of the through route to Maidstone (12). It was upgraded to hourly some years ago then down graded to two-hourly fairly recently. I would be concerned because East Sussex are amongst the most cash-strapped councils.
Its a well known regret in Tenterden that the town should have petitioned to be included in Tunbridge Wells District in the 1974 local authority organisation because of the better treatment its rural communities get compared to Ashford.
The problem with including Tenterden in Tunbridge Wells District would have been what to do with Appledore and Stone in Oxney, which really are a long way from Tunbridge Wells. To be honest , I think there is general dissatisfaction across many parts of Kent about how the county was divided up. Unfortunately the big towns are not nicely distributed!​

I supposed my point about councillors representing out-of-town wards is they expect the mode of transport to be the car (generalisation) because they couldn't survive without one (and they may well live in a village with no real bus service at all).
 

Busaholic

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Those in the east of the ward get an even worse service, of course. I thought that the shopper's service was gone when it was announced that Arriva were finishing. The 312 has an interesting history, I believe, and has had numerous operators. I first travelled on it when it was part of the through route to Maidstone (12). It was upgraded to hourly some years ago then down graded to two-hourly fairly recently. I would be concerned because East Sussex are amongst the most cash-strapped councils.
The problem with including Tenterden in Tunbridge Wells District would have been what to do with Appledore and Stone in Oxney, which really are a long way from Tunbridge Wells. To be honest , I think there is general dissatisfaction across many parts of Kent about how the county was divided up. Unfortunately the big towns are not nicely distributed!​

I supposed my point about councillors representing out-of-town wards is they expect the mode of transport to be the car (generalisation) because they couldn't survive without one (and they may well live in a village with no real bus service at all).
Down here in Cornwall, under a Unitary Authority, with a county of seventy odd miles east to west, we've had decisions made about Penzance, where I live, by 15 councillors, none of whom represented anywhere nearer than twenty miles! Resist any clarion calls to abolish District Councils on grounds of 'economy'. Any semblance of democracy goes out of the window.
 

alex397

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It is believed the R-line will not be withdrawn, but its just being re-tendered by KCC. If this is true, it will be interesting to know why Chalkwell did not last very long with this route.
If re-tendered, I'd imagine it would be picked up by Stagecoach, or possibly Kent Coach Tours or Regent Coaches. Speculation, of course!
 

Typhoon

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It is believed the R-line will not be withdrawn, but its just being re-tendered by KCC. If this is true, it will be interesting to know why Chalkwell did not last very long with this route.
If re-tendered, I'd imagine it would be picked up by Stagecoach, or possibly Kent Coach Tours or Regent Coaches. Speculation, of course!
Regent is a long way away. To me Kent Coach Tours is the natural operator, they already run the 113 in Ashford.

Chalkwell were not successful in operating three routes in the Canterbury area - when buses failed it took ages for them to get a replacement out. I once travelled about 100 yards before the bus failed. The driver advised me to make my own arrangements as it would be over an hour before the engineer would be out - it only took 45 minutes to walk!
 

Typhoon

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Down here in Cornwall, under a Unitary Authority, with a county of seventy odd miles east to west, we've had decisions made about Penzance, where I live, by 15 councillors, none of whom represented anywhere nearer than twenty miles! Resist any clarion calls to abolish District Councils on grounds of 'economy'. Any semblance of democracy goes out of the window.
I'm not surprised. Four (or possibly five) District Councils in East Kent wanted to merge - inevitably fewer councillors (representing our area), no chance of seeing democracy in action, less accountability, power goes to the cabinet's head.
Doubtless they would steamroller decisions about St Austell through the following week, Bude the week after.
 

alex397

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Regent is a long way away. To me Kent Coach Tours is the natural operator, they already run the 113 in Ashford.

Chalkwell were not successful in operating three routes in the Canterbury area - when buses failed it took ages for them to get a replacement out. I once travelled about 100 yards before the bus failed. The driver advised me to make my own arrangements as it would be over an hour before the engineer would be out - it only took 45 minutes to walk!

Indeed, Regent would probably be too far to operate in Ashford. Although they do operate in Dover, which they have an outstation for. They also previously operated the 666. Kent Coach Tours (based in Ashford) would probably operate it if Stagecoach didn't - although, they might not even apply for it - they haven't gained any routes for years which suggests they don't have ambitions to grow. I would be pleased if they did operate it - they appear to be a very professional company. Regent are not too far off either. Ideally, Stagecoach should operate it, as the route will then have the network benefits (i.e. more attractive for current season ticket holders).

Out of interest, what routes did Chalkwell operate in Canterbury? I know they operated the market day service from Sheppey, but thats all I can think of. I'm not that knowledgeable about bus history in Kent..
 

Typhoon

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Indeed, Regent would probably be too far to operate in Ashford. Although they do operate in Dover, which they have an outstation for. They also previously operated the 666. Kent Coach Tours (based in Ashford) would probably operate it if Stagecoach didn't - although, they might not even apply for it - they haven't gained any routes for years which suggests they don't have ambitions to grow. I would be pleased if they did operate it - they appear to be a very professional company. Regent are not too far off either. Ideally, Stagecoach should operate it, as the route will then have the network benefits (i.e. more attractive for current season ticket holders).

Out of interest, what routes did Chalkwell operate in Canterbury? I know they operated the market day service from Sheppey, but thats all I can think of. I'm not that knowledgeable about bus history in Kent..
'Canterbury' = Canterbury District Council area (sorry, should have been clearer)
Chalkwell operated:
5 - Canterbury - Seasalter (on Sundays)
634 - Herne Bay local service (Thursdays only)
638 - Faversham - Whitstable (Mon - Sat).
First/ last journeys operated from/to Sittingbourne carrying almost no-one according to the drivers.

When Regent operated the 666, there was an early (positioning?) service from Faversham (I caught it once) so possibly they used to start/finish in Faversham, not that far from their garage. They are more established in the Dover area (93 and evening locals in Dover, shoppers services in the Kent coalfields area, possibly closed door schools services as well). Kent Coach Tours have recently given up their shopping services in the Tenterden area so may have the driver/ vehicle. Their base in Ashford would mean low costs to get the vehicle to the start/from the end of route and in driver change over. To be honest, I don't know what was wrong with diverting the 666 - it would mean that those in Faversham or in the villages en-route could get to the shopping facilities in Eureka Park. Stagecoach may not find route R profitable and, given the recent reductions would probably be pretty ruthless with underperforming routes.
 

alex397

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'Canterbury' = Canterbury District Council area (sorry, should have been clearer)
Chalkwell operated:
5 - Canterbury - Seasalter (on Sundays)
634 - Herne Bay local service (Thursdays only)
638 - Faversham - Whitstable (Mon - Sat).
First/ last journeys operated from/to Sittingbourne carrying almost no-one according to the drivers.

When Regent operated the 666, there was an early (positioning?) service from Faversham (I caught it once) so possibly they used to start/finish in Faversham, not that far from their garage. They are more established in the Dover area (93 and evening locals in Dover, shoppers services in the Kent coalfields area, possibly closed door schools services as well). Kent Coach Tours have recently given up their shopping services in the Tenterden area so may have the driver/ vehicle. Their base in Ashford would mean low costs to get the vehicle to the start/from the end of route and in driver change over. To be honest, I don't know what was wrong with diverting the 666 - it would mean that those in Faversham or in the villages en-route could get to the shopping facilities in Eureka Park. Stagecoach may not find route R profitable and, given the recent reductions would probably be pretty ruthless with underperforming routes.

Ah yes, I see what you mean! Its a shame (for the enthusiast) that they are no longer in the Canterbury district (I often forget it includes HB/Whitstable), as it gave a bit more variety.
I agree with your thoughts on the 666 - it was a more efficient use of resources, as I think the R-route on its own is perhaps inefficient. I think Kent County Council did not agree with the 666 omitting the WH Hospital after the Eureka Park diversion, which is why the R came about, I believe. I doubt Stagecoach would want to operate the R commercially, but maybe they'd consider it under contract?
 

Typhoon

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Ah yes, I see what you mean! Its a shame (for the enthusiast) that they are no longer in the Canterbury district (I often forget it includes HB/Whitstable), as it gave a bit more variety.
For the enthusiast, perhaps. As a user (of two of the routes) I prefer the reliability of Regent!
 

siriain

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And the latest news from Ashford:

Ooh R just a little bus..
Kent County Council has asked Stagecoach to operate route R from Wednesday 2 January 2019.
There will be some minor changes to the timetable. There will also be a service on Sundays and Bank Holidays!
Route R buses will continue to serve Eureka Place, Eureka Leisure Park, John Lewis and Repton Park Waitrose to and from the town centre and rail station.
You can view the new route R timetable here.
 

alex397

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And the latest news from Ashford:

Ooh R just a little bus..
Kent County Council has asked Stagecoach to operate route R from Wednesday 2 January 2019.
There will be some minor changes to the timetable. There will also be a service on Sundays and Bank Holidays!
Route R buses will continue to serve Eureka Place, Eureka Leisure Park, John Lewis and Repton Park Waitrose to and from the town centre and rail station.
You can view the new route R timetable here.

That's good news for Ashford bus passengers, as there will then be the network benefits again. Hopefully passenger levels will rise, and I don't think its been particularly busy with Chalkwell to say the least!

From the enthusiast's point of view, I was hoping Kent Coach Travel might have picked it up.

This change also involves school route WS5 from Kennington to Wye, which is in the same contract.
 
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Some further changes in Folkestone a few weeks ago:
https://www.stagecoachbus.com/servi...rticle?SituationId=ID-11/10/2019-15:33:01:219

Headlines:
  • 73 split at the bus station into 73 (Hawkinge) and new 71A;
  • 71 split at the bus station into 71 (Cheriton) and new 76 - both changes to reduce delays due to congestion. Through tickes are apparently available (time for a simple 'one hour' ticket I think);
  • 73 adjusted to visit new stops in West Hawkinge.
Mildly good news, I think, along with the departure of most of the appaling Solos. Now mostly seen on the Grand Tour 91.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Just thought I'd share another mini adventure. After recent trips in the North, East and North East, work took me to the South Eastern tip and the opportunity to have a half day to explore. Kent is a county that I've only sporadically visited, and as for the last time I had a trip out on some buses.... well, Arriva was in its infancy and Stagecoach were still using stripes!

I began my trip in early afternoon with a trip on the 15 from Dover to Canterbury. Perhaps surprisingly for a frequent interurban route, it's operated by e400s of a certain age though perhaps it isn't the money spinner that some other routes (Wave, Breeze, Triangle) are. Newly repainted in the latest livery, my 2008 machine was in very good condition inside, being refurbished in blue leather. Travelling on it, you wouldn't have realised its age demonstrating that older doesn't necessarily mean shabby. The 15 takes you through some surprisingly fine countryside near Lydden before a charge along the A2 to Canterbury. Arriving at Canterbury bus station, the now closed Stagecoach enquiry office looked forlorn - if not manned, surely there's a better way of utilising it? I'd have loved to have explored the city but my time was short so I took the 1X to Ashford. This was the old 400 and feels like a bit of a Cinderella service but a 15 yr old ALX Trident was older than I expected. As regards a hidden, scenic gem, the 1X is a beauty. Aside from some woman wittering on to a long suffering husband incessantly (and I was pleased when they got off at Chilham), it's a lovely trip through the Stour Valley as the scenery changes markedly from the open lands near Thanet to more Weald like country.

We arrived in Ashford. I noticed that Frodsham in Cheshire had a disproportionate number of podiatrists; well Ashford is home of the Shisha bar. There's loads! The Park Street terminus is a de facto bus station for non-local buses located just behind the main streets but it's rather dull. I could've stayed on the Trident as it became a 2A but instead, changed onto a 2 (as both headed to Tenterden but by different routes). We picked up quite a few at the International Rail Station as we struggled to extricate ourselves from the gravitational pull of Ashford on my e200; a decent enough machine and, in contrast to my first two vehicles, it had some really good marketing on the internal cove panels. Also, there's a notice with the fleet number urging you to contact them if the vehicle isn't clean - pretty impressive. I'd factored in a small break at Tenterden, which was always more M&D (rather than East Kent) territory. In fact, I headed into Waitrose which is built on the site of the former M&D garage in the town centre, whilst the half timbered cafe by the bus stop is the former M&D travel office.

I had hoped for a decker for my next trip but instead, my Discover ticket would get me a trip on a 2004 Daf Commander, courtesy of Arriva's Maidstone garage. The 12 runs fairly frequently but seemingly can be operated by anything. To be absolutely honest, it was actually quite smart for a 17 year old vehicle and had barely a rattle. However, aside from a notice on the Sittingbourne fair deal (more later), there were no ads for Arriva. We made our way through beautiful Kent villages, attracting quite a few passengers on the way. One interesting observation was that when we arrived in Headcorn, rather than stopping at the road end, we turned and travelled the 100m to the train station though sadly, the poorly advertised rail link is not fully capitalised with no bus shelter, just a stop. We made good time as we headed up through Sutton Valence and then carved our way through the Maidstone suburbs. Rather than the Chequers bus station (currently closed), I had to search my way around the streets to find my next bus, as I went to experience the Sittingbourne bus war first hand.

Wandering down Lower Stone St (was that where the bus station once was), I went to locate Arriva's 334 for Sheerness. It was waiting for me; they had mobilised a 2009 e200 for the journey. To be honest, the condition was scandalous, and especially so for a service under attack from Stagecoach. Loads of passive aggressive instructional notices (as is Arriva's want) but with added Covid related ones; ones that have now been superseded but have only been half peeled away as if someone tried but lost interest. We made our way out following a Stagecoach X3 (late running) e400mmc which soon left us behind. Our e200 was asthmatic and slowed to a crawl up Detling Hill so I was surprised that we arrived in Sittingbourne on time. The town is one I've only ever visited once before and it seems to have benefited from some major redevelopment opposite the commuter thronged train station where I exited. Just nearby is the "bus hub" which is just a couple of bus stops where Maidstone bound and local town routes stop instead.

Stagecoach's Maidstone to Sittingbourne incursion is timed to bisect the Arriva timings, and rather than running to Sheerness, they run via Faversham to Canterbury. I was keen to see what Stagecoach would provide and I was impressed to see that it was a two year old e200mmc, that was formerly used in Thanet. My one had the Irn Bru leather seating, USB ports etc and was a world away from the 12 year old Arriva heap I'd left. The X4 has to be single deck and we made leisurely progress to Faversham which used to be border between Arriva and Stagecoach; historically, both M&D and East Kent had depots there and we passed the former one which is now South East Coachworks. We made steady progress and arrived on time in Canterbury where I caught another e400 back towards Dover and the end of my day.

Some stunning countryside especially from Canterbury to Ashford to Tenterden and then to Maidstone as we passed oast houses and beautiful villages; I'd recommend it to anyone. And whilst Stagecoach are best described as functional, the standards of Arriva in Maidstone are terrible with ancient B7TLs and knackered e200s much in evidence and looking very down at heel. If I were a betting man, you'd expect Stagecoach to win their scuffle.

Hope this was on interest and, as ever, I'm happy to be corrected.

Photos for a comparison - note that was no promo notice for the Sittingbourne ticket offer from Arriva, but loads of other stuff
 

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aswilliamsuk

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@TheGrandWazoo great write-up. I moved to Hythe (just outside Folkestone) in the spring, from inner North London, and I'm not going to lie, I'm enjoying the peace and quiet of the Kent coast! Must do that route down the Stour Valley, though. I highly recommend the 17 and 18 routes out of Canterbury (the 17 down the Elham Valley to Folkestone, the 18 through Stelling Minnis and some extraordinary, narrow roads the "back way" to Hythe), too. That said, even the 16 on the "main road" route to Folkestone is beautiful too.

It's also been fascinating reading the comments from a few years back on the substantial changes Stagecoach made - obviously, some of them have been amended since. Folkestone feels like a town on the up at the moment (with a lot of investment to regenerate it, and big plans recently unveiled to continue that, including a potential move of the bus station onto a remodelled Middelburg Square. Link: https://www.folkestone-hythe.gov.uk/news/place-plan-draft-live).

From my eyes, the current service pattern now works - services are simpler and easier to understand, most of Folkestone and Hythe is covered adequately, and the fleet is surprisingly modern. The fact that Folkestone runs three routes, in particular, that must be pretty profitable (and even during COVID all have remained busy, even more so now) - the 16, 71/71A and 102 - must help. The 16 might finally get extended properly to Martello Lakes soon, seeing as the second part of that development was approved recently with clear intentions that the 16 will then terminate there (perhaps with more space to turn than the cramped side-road at the Prince of Wales pub).

I was a little taken aback by the fares down here (£4.40 single from Hythe to Folkestone!), but when a dayrider for the Folkestone & Hythe area is £4.20 on the app, I know which I'm buying...
 

Typhoon

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From my eyes, the current service pattern now works - services are simpler and easier to understand, most of Folkestone and Hythe is covered adequately, and the fleet is surprisingly modern. The fact that Folkestone runs three routes, in particular, that must be pretty profitable (and even during COVID all have remained busy, even more so now) - the 16, 71/71A and 102 - must help. The 16 might finally get extended properly to Martello Lakes soon, seeing as the second part of that development was approved recently with clear intentions that the 16 will then terminate there (perhaps with more space to turn than the cramped side-road at the Prince of Wales pub).
The 16 used to run to Martello Lakes as recently as 2018 (my timetable is dated June of that year), the extension took place when the 16 was reduced from 4 buses an hour when services in the Dover and Folkestone area were generally reduced, this also affected the Folkestone locals (71/A and others) and the Dover- Folkestone-New Romney route (now the 102) and is the reason some routes like the 91 go all round the houses.

I agree with the 16/17/18. In particular any route that goes to a place called Wheelbarrow Town can't be all bad (although 'Town' must be debateable trades description wise, blink and you miss it).

I was a little taken aback by the fares down here (£4.40 single from Hythe to Folkestone!), but when a dayrider for the Folkestone & Hythe area is £4.20 on the app, I know which I'm buying...
This is generally true, even the paper Folkestone & Hythe ticket is only £4.50. I think the idea is that you buy a multi journey tickets, it is far from unusual for those wanting to return to purchase a Day Rider, drivers will often encourage it as they know it is cheaper.

From which @TheGrandWazoo, I quite agree Arriva seem to be making no effort at all on the 334, it shouldn't be a forgone conclusion that Stagecoach would succeed, their turnaround times are tight, which is why I am not surprised that you found the X3 to be running late, I caught the 3 (Canterbury-Faversham-Oare) twice yesterday, both late running. I think Stagecoach may have to look at its timings, particularly when the schools and colleges go back. Also I would have thought there was reasonable business to be done for Sheerness to Maidstone (and back). I don't think Arriva have changed their standard 334 stock for some time (I may be wrong), certainly at least one of 6410 and 6411 always seems to be on duty.

There used to be a Arriva (Kent & Sussex as it was then) and Stagecoach day ticket, it may even have been called an Explorer, which I think finished before the Discovery ticket was available in Kent (it was also quite a bit cheaper). I think I heard that Arriva knocked it on the head (??), when I wouldn't have thought they would benefit, trips to the seaside and the like. Arriva land has very little to offer locally besides Sheppey (and now only part of that).

As this is a Stagecoach thread I put forward Stagecoach's 89 timetable (Canterbury - Aylesham) as a candidate for the most confusing timetable: Route 89 tt.pdf (tiscon-maps-stagecoachbus.s3.amazonaws.com)

No paper versions available!!
 

SeveerYeliab

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@TheGrandWazoo great write-up. I moved to Hythe (just outside Folkestone) in the spring, from inner North London, and I'm not going to lie, I'm enjoying the peace and quiet of the Kent coast! Must do that route down the Stour Valley, though. I highly recommend the 17 and 18 routes out of Canterbury (the 17 down the Elham Valley to Folkestone, the 18 through Stelling Minnis and some extraordinary, narrow roads the "back way" to Hythe), too. That said, even the 16 on the "main road" route to Folkestone is beautiful too.

It's also been fascinating reading the comments from a few years back on the substantial changes Stagecoach made - obviously, some of them have been amended since. Folkestone feels like a town on the up at the moment (with a lot of investment to regenerate it, and big plans recently unveiled to continue that, including a potential move of the bus station onto a remodelled Middelburg Square. Link: https://www.folkestone-hythe.gov.uk/news/place-plan-draft-live).

From my eyes, the current service pattern now works - services are simpler and easier to understand, most of Folkestone and Hythe is covered adequately, and the fleet is surprisingly modern. The fact that Folkestone runs three routes, in particular, that must be pretty profitable (and even during COVID all have remained busy, even more so now) - the 16, 71/71A and 102 - must help. The 16 might finally get extended properly to Martello Lakes soon, seeing as the second part of that development was approved recently with clear intentions that the 16 will then terminate there (perhaps with more space to turn than the cramped side-road at the Prince of Wales pub).

I was a little taken aback by the fares down here (£4.40 single from Hythe to Folkestone!), but when a dayrider for the Folkestone & Hythe area is £4.20 on the app, I know which I'm buying...
I have always found stagecoach around here to be rather good tbh. However, a little niggle of mine is their abysmal allocation of vehicles- what's the point of having nice buses for the 16/102 when they're never on that bloody route !? Just look on bustimes.org and you'll see that allocations very random!
However, tbf I do know that the folkestone garage suffers from a bit of a space deficiency so it must make allocating buses in the AM rather hard if, for example all the gold buses have been buried at the back.
 

Typhoon

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I have always found stagecoach around here to be rather good tbh. However, a little niggle of mine is their abysmal allocation of vehicles- what's the point of having nice buses for the 16/102 when they're never on that bloody route !? Just look on bustimes.org and you'll see that allocations very random!
However, tbf I do know that the folkestone garage suffers from a bit of a space deficiency so it must make allocating buses in the AM rather hard if, for example all the gold buses have been buried at the back.
Half of your 'Wave' buses have been repainted and have come our way, I was on one yesterday heading to Faversham. Now they are repainted they look like any other Stagecoach bus, although the coving (downstairs at least) still promotes travel to Hastings!
 

SeveerYeliab

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21 Dec 2018
Messages
107
Half of your 'Wave' buses have been repainted and have come our way, I was on one yesterday heading to Faversham. Now they are repainted they look like any other Stagecoach bus, although the coving (downstairs at least) still promotes travel to Hastings!
And half of your triangle buses have come our way and repainted to look like any other bus, and the inside coving promoting travel to Herne Bay still!
 

jammy36

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Messages
299
Thanks for the trip report @TheGrandWazoo. Your day's experience provides a pretty good summary of the relative merits (or otherwise) of the two main operators in Kent. It is a pity that some of the good practice and thinking that helped drive growth at Stagecoach East Kent is being lost somewhat to the group's drive for corporate standardisation and cost tightening. Stagecoach have traditionally had a good reputation for managing costs and overheads and for generally being fairly 'lean'. It is a shame now that it is 'front of house' that is seeing the cuts, through closure of travel shops (like Canterbury) and loss of printed material. Nevertheless, they are at least willing to try new routes and services and they have produced paper leaflets/timetables for the new competitive services.

I live in Maidstone and it has been disappointing to see the decline in Arriva first hand. Obviously they've lost routes on the margins of their operating area previously (to GoCoach) in the west of their 'territory' and now further reductions in Sittingbourne and pulling out of Sheppey. Even their core operations in Maidstone and Medway seem in decline. Medway especially is punishing bus territory, but at least used to see regular fleet investment, but as with the rest of the group this has dried up. It wasn't that long ago that the Maidstone to Sittingbourne run was operated by new branded Versas, now elderly and down at heal Enviro 200s are the order of the day. It is perhaps no wonder Stagecoach could 'smell blood'. Certainly seeing their bright clean vehicles bring home how run down some of Arriva's vehicles are. Casual observation seems to suggest Stagecoach patronage is picking up gradually. One of the X4s I saw yesterday morning was certainly carrying a good load into Maidstone.

Fleet presentation at Arriva is generally very poor (although credit must be given to Tunbridge Wells depot, which at least still seems to try - but this is the result of dedication of a few individuals, rather than company led). Customer service has all been pushed online, but even basic enquiries are left unanswered. Bus cleanliness has also slipped (yes there has been some enhanced cleaning following Covid), but this hasn't tackled the deeply ingrained grimness of some of the older vehicles. Vehicle reliability seems also to be having an effect on service reliability.

Whilst Stagecoach are still willing to try new and competing services I can't remember the last time Arriva Kent showed any innovation...?
 

SeveerYeliab

Member
Joined
21 Dec 2018
Messages
107
Thanks for the trip report @TheGrandWazoo. Your day's experience provides a pretty good summary of the relative merits (or otherwise) of the two main operators in Kent. It is a pity that some of the good practice and thinking that helped drive growth at Stagecoach East Kent is being lost somewhat to the group's drive for corporate standardisation and cost tightening. Stagecoach have traditionally had a good reputation for managing costs and overheads and for generally being fairly 'lean'. It is a shame now that it is 'front of house' that is seeing the cuts, through closure of travel shops (like Canterbury) and loss of printed material. Nevertheless, they are at least willing to try new routes and services and they have produced paper leaflets/timetables for the new competitive services.

I live in Maidstone and it has been disappointing to see the decline in Arriva first hand. Obviously they've lost routes on the margins of their operating area previously (to GoCoach) in the west of their 'territory' and now further reductions in Sittingbourne and pulling out of Sheppey. Even their core operations in Maidstone and Medway seem in decline. Medway especially is punishing bus territory, but at least used to see regular fleet investment, but as with the rest of the group this has dried up. It wasn't that long ago that the Maidstone to Sittingbourne run was operated by new branded Versas, now elderly and down at heal Enviro 200s are the order of the day. It is perhaps no wonder Stagecoach could 'smell blood'. Certainly seeing their bright clean vehicles bring home how run down some of Arriva's vehicles are. Casual observation seems to suggest Stagecoach patronage is picking up gradually. One of the X4s I saw yesterday morning was certainly carrying a good load into Maidstone.

Fleet presentation at Arriva is generally very poor (although credit must be given to Tunbridge Wells depot, which at least still seems to try - but this is the result of dedication of a few individuals, rather than company led). Customer service has all been pushed online, but even basic enquiries are left unanswered. Bus cleanliness has also slipped (yes there has been some enhanced cleaning following Covid), but this hasn't tackled the deeply ingrained grimness of some of the older vehicles. Vehicle reliability seems also to be having an effect on service reliability.

Whilst Stagecoach are still willing to try new and competing services I can't remember the last time Arriva Kent showed any innovation...?
Agree with everything you say, however I wouldn't say medway is punishing bus territory, I would argue that Arriva actually have better territory (in some parts) than Stagecoach.

The fact that Stagecoach made over 3 million quid profit a few years ago (before the bat flu messed everything up) and Arriva where losing ridiculous amounts before shows how the differences of approach translate onto the account books.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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18 Feb 2013
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Thanks to all for their feedback.

I moved to Hythe (just outside Folkestone) in the spring, from inner North London, and I'm not going to lie, I'm enjoying the peace and quiet of the Kent coast! Must do that route down the Stour Valley, though. I highly recommend the 17 and 18 routes out of Canterbury (the 17 down the Elham Valley to Folkestone, the 18 through Stelling Minnis and some extraordinary, narrow roads the "back way" to Hythe), too. That said, even the 16 on the "main road" route to Folkestone is beautiful too.

I'd not been to that part of the world for a while and it was certainly a lot nicer than I had anticipated. The 1X is a corker. Had I have had enough time, I'd have gone from Dover to Folkestone and then up to Ashford, and I did think about getting the 16 but will have to wait for another day.

Thanks for the trip report @TheGrandWazoo. Your day's experience provides a pretty good summary of the relative merits (or otherwise) of the two main operators in Kent. It is a pity that some of the good practice and thinking that helped drive growth at Stagecoach East Kent is being lost somewhat to the group's drive for corporate standardisation and cost tightening. Stagecoach have traditionally had a good reputation for managing costs and overheads and for generally being fairly 'lean'. It is a shame now that it is 'front of house' that is seeing the cuts, through closure of travel shops (like Canterbury) and loss of printed material. Nevertheless, they are at least willing to try new routes and services and they have produced paper leaflets/timetables for the new competitive services.

I live in Maidstone and it has been disappointing to see the decline in Arriva first hand. Obviously they've lost routes on the margins of their operating area previously (to GoCoach) in the west of their 'territory' and now further reductions in Sittingbourne and pulling out of Sheppey. Even their core operations in Maidstone and Medway seem in decline. Medway especially is punishing bus territory, but at least used to see regular fleet investment, but as with the rest of the group this has dried up. It wasn't that long ago that the Maidstone to Sittingbourne run was operated by new branded Versas, now elderly and down at heal Enviro 200s are the order of the day. It is perhaps no wonder Stagecoach could 'smell blood'. Certainly seeing their bright clean vehicles bring home how run down some of Arriva's vehicles are. Casual observation seems to suggest Stagecoach patronage is picking up gradually. One of the X4s I saw yesterday morning was certainly carrying a good load into Maidstone.

Fleet presentation at Arriva is generally very poor (although credit must be given to Tunbridge Wells depot, which at least still seems to try - but this is the result of dedication of a few individuals, rather than company led). Customer service has all been pushed online, but even basic enquiries are left unanswered. Bus cleanliness has also slipped (yes there has been some enhanced cleaning following Covid), but this hasn't tackled the deeply ingrained grimness of some of the older vehicles. Vehicle reliability seems also to be having an effect on service reliability.

Whilst Stagecoach are still willing to try new and competing services I can't remember the last time Arriva Kent showed any innovation...?

It was a limited experience on my part but of the two vehicles I travelled on, the Commander on the 12 was actually ok in terms of internal condition. However, the e200 was a shocker; seats were fine but everything else was shoddy and down at heel. The other vehicles were observed from afar (rather than travelled upon) but the Maidstone fleet looked terrible. The Overdrive ALXs are now 17 years old and look it; damaged faded paintwork and creased panels seem the order of the day. This photo (credit to photographer) is one vehicles quoted as a regular on the Sheerness route and it sums things up https://www.flickr.com/photos/adam_mills301/51303151180/in/photolist-2mau4tj-2kRCuDA

I think there are a few firms who can smell blood as we're also seeing in the North East, and even in the traditional powerbases of North West and Yorkshire, as people start to advance around the edges.

I do agree with you about the creeping dead hand of corporate centralisation at Stagecoach. The central edict on closing travel shops is shortsighted, the centrally imposed liveries are non-sensical (though I accept a little more control and some freshening up was perhaps due). However, they are still a country mile ahead of Arriva and still have the freedom to try something new; like you, I can barely recall anything positive from Arriva (and not just in Kent).

I quite agree Arriva seem to be making no effort at all on the 334, it shouldn't be a forgone conclusion that Stagecoach would succeed, their turnaround times are tight, which is why I am not surprised that you found the X3 to be running late, I caught the 3 (Canterbury-Faversham-Oare) twice yesterday, both late running. I think Stagecoach may have to look at its timings, particularly when the schools and colleges go back. Also I would have thought there was reasonable business to be done for Sheerness to Maidstone (and back). I don't think Arriva have changed their standard 334 stock for some time (I may be wrong), certainly at least one of 6410 and 6411 always seems to be on duty.
I think Stagecoach are giving it a good go but it's fair comment about the issue on timekeeping. Heard a Stagecoach driver say exactly that, in that he'd been late for most of the day and had only just got back on time for the end of play.

Agree with everything you say, however I wouldn't say medway is punishing bus territory, I would argue that Arriva actually have better territory (in some parts) than Stagecoach.

The fact that Stagecoach made over 3 million quid profit a few years ago (before the bat flu messed everything up) and Arriva where losing ridiculous amounts before shows how the differences of approach translate onto the account books.

I suspect he means physically demanding bus territory around the Medway towns (which can feed into costs and presentation issues) but it does seem that Arriva are frittering away the territory they have. When you look at what they had when Arriva took over compared to now....
 

jammy36

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2013
Messages
299
Agree with everything you say, however I wouldn't say medway is punishing bus territory, I would argue that Arriva actually have better territory (in some parts) than Stagecoach.

The fact that Stagecoach made over 3 million quid profit a few years ago (before the bat flu messed everything up) and Arriva where losing ridiculous amounts before shows how the differences of approach translate onto the account books.

I suspect he means physically demanding bus territory around the Medway towns (which can feed into costs and presentation issues) but it does seem that Arriva are frittering away the territory they have. When you lo
Yes, I meant physically demanding, which I'd argue is the case. Otherwise, yes you are right that the Medway towns should be good bus territory, although the decline of Chatham as a retail/service centre has altered the dynamic (not a challenge limited to just Medway of course).
 
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