Penalty Fare Notice given when attempting to buy a ticket

I was running late and having attempted, but failed, to buy a ticket from the machine in a manned station (no change given "overpayment not allowed" - presumably this can be verified) I boarded the train. The conductor did not make it as far as me on the very short journey.

At Leeds station, 50 metres from where this train arrives there is a ticket desk where once or twice in the past in similar situations I have purchased a ticket. The was a small queue, so I duly queued, and when I asked for an off-peak return ticket I was issued a Penalty Fare Notice by someone other than the person working at the ticket desk. I was a bit bewildered in all honesty.

There was clearly no intention to get out of the station without a ticket as I had queued at Leeds to buy and then asked for one. I have done this before, as I am sure many others have. I think I acted reasonably and did what any person would have done in the same circumstances.

What should I do?

I have read about Promise to Pay notices (obviously I have never even heard of such a thing) and a secondary question is why, when the machine could not give change it didn't issue a Promise to Pay as clearly I was trying to pay?

horsfordian said:

I was running late and having attempted, but failed, to buy a ticket from the machine in a manned station (no change given "overpayment not allowed" - presumably this can be verified) I boarded the train. The conductor did not make it as far as me on the very short journey.

At Leeds station, 50 metres from where this train arrives there is a ticket desk where once or twice in the past in similar situations I have purchased a ticket. The was a small queue, so I duly queued, and when I asked for an off-peak return ticket I was issued a Penalty Fare Notice by someone other than the person working at the ticket desk. I was a bit bewildered in all honesty.

There was clearly no intention to get out of the station without a ticket as I had queued at Leeds to buy and then asked for one. I have done this before, as I am sure many others have. I think I acted reasonably and did what any person would have done in the same circumstances.

What should I do?

I have read about Promise to Pay notices (obviously I have never even heard of such a thing) and a secondary question is why, when the machine could not give change it didn't issue a Promise to Pay as clearly I was trying to pay?

Click to expand...

If the station was staffed, were there not other places from which to purchase a ticket? Unfortunately, it’s your responsibility to buy before you board, unless there was nowhere to buy a ticket. Unless this was the only machine, the fact that it wasn’t taking overpayment is t really a defence I’m afraid. Regarding the permit to travel I think you refer to? I’m don’t know the area or TOC concerned, however do the same machines that issue tickets to customers, actually issue oermitvto travel type tickets? Usually it’s a separate machine as far as I’m aware.

Was there an open ticket office or another ticket machine at the station you boarded?

Stigy said:

I’m don’t know the area or TOC concerned, however do the same machines that issue tickets to customers, actually issue oermitvto travel type tickets?

Click to expand...

In the Northern area, TVMs also issue Promise to Pay Notices.

Stigy said:

If the station was staffed, were there not other places from which to purchase a ticket?

Click to expand...

This is the pertinent question. If there was somewhere else for the OP to pay for his ticket then the Penalty Fare was correctly (if somewhat unfairly) issued.

Hi, and thank you all for the replies. Yes, there is one machine and a staffed ticket office. I would have missed the train had I gone to the ticket office after being rejected by the machine.

However, I attempted to purchase a ticket from the office within the station at Leeds and I'd got as far as requesting it when I was taken to one side.

I don't travel more than half a dozen times a year, but over the last 10 years there has probably been at least one occasion each year that I've bought my ticket at Leeds.

horsfordian said:

I would have missed the train had I gone to the ticket office after being rejected by the machine.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, that is not a valid excuse for not obtaining a ticket.

najaB said:

Unfortunately, that is not a valid excuse for not obtaining a ticket.

Click to expand...

Unless you had travelled by train from elsewhere that did not have ticketing facilities and did not have sufficient time to buy the ticket. However I don’t think this is the case here so the penalty fare was issued correctly as others have stated.

I tried to purchase said ticket from the ticket office within Leeds station as soon as I got off the train. The desk staff seemed perfectly willing to sell me one (as has happened in past on occasion). However this time the "official" prevented the sale taking place.

horsfordian said:

I tried to purchase said ticket from the ticket office within Leeds station as soon as I got off the train. The desk staff seemed perfectly willing to sell me one (as has happened in past on occasion). However this time the "official" prevented the sale taking place.

Click to expand...

That's because you are required to purchase before you board if there is a means to do so accepting your chosen method of payment.

Unfortunately as you chose to join a train without a ticket at a station with an open ticket office, the Penalty Fare was correctly issued. Not allowing sufficient time to buy a ticket is not a defence. You were dealt with more leniently than would have happened a year ago when you would have been reported for prosecution.

You now need to promptly pay the Penalty Fare to avoid additional costs or possible court action.

On the face of it, the Penalty Fare was appropriate - there was a ticket office that you could have used to buy your ticket, and you should have used it, even if it meant missing the train.

However, Northern's Penalty Fare scheme is ineffective insofar as they do not comply with The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, at the very least in terms of their signage - both its placement, for some stations, and its wording, for all stations. (Moderator note: this can be discussed further in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/the-railways-penalty-fare-regulations.175133/ )

I would pay the Penalty Fare now, and mount an appeal on the basis as described above. If you allege that they are non-compliant with the Regulations, it is incumbent upon Northern to prove (see Regulation 16(4)) that this is not the case, i.e. that they do comply. They will struggle mightily to prove this, since they simply do not use compliant wording on their signage.

Once 21 days have passed from you submitting your appeal, or when the appeals body makes its response (whichever is earlier), Northern become statute barred from prosecuting the matter (see Regulation 11(3)).

Was the ticket office open? If the ticket office happened to be closed then you have grounds for appeal as the ticket machine had an issue accepting cash. I would pay this now to stop the matter going any further then appeal. I would also consider appealing on the basis of the point raised above regarding signage. You will know better what, if any, signage about the Penalty Fare scheme is at the station, where it is located and you could take a photo of any such posters so we can see what it says to check if it is compliant.

island said:

Unfortunately as you chose to join a train without a ticket at a station with an open ticket office, the Penalty Fare was correctly issued. Not allowing sufficient time to buy a ticket is not a defence. You were dealt with more leniently than would have happened a year ago when you would have been reported for prosecution.

You now need to promptly pay the Penalty Fare to avoid additional costs or possible court action.

Click to expand...

Hi. My defence isn't that I didn't allow sufficient time, it's that I tried to buy a ticket at the ticket office on the platform at Leeds station. This is something that I have done before, I don't know how many times but more than once. Not an eyebrow was ever raised, and in fact I thought it was the right thing to do. Not once did anyone mention reporting anyone, or that I'd done the wrong thing, they just issued me with a ticket in exchange for money!

ForTheLoveOf said:

On the face of it, the Penalty Fare was appropriate - there was a ticket office that you could have used to buy your ticket, and you should have used it, even if it meant missing the train.

However, Northern's Penalty Fare scheme is ineffective insofar as they do not comply with The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, at the very least in terms of their signage - both its placement, for some stations, and its wording, for all stations.

I would pay the Penalty Fare now, and mount an appeal on the basis as described above. If you allege that they are non-compliant with the Regulations, it is incumbent upon Northern to prove (see Regulation 16(4)) that this is not the case, i.e. that they do comply. They will struggle mightily to prove this, since they simply do not use compliant wording on their signage.

Once 21 days have passed from you submitting your appeal, or when the appeals body makes its response (whichever is earlier), Northern become statute barred from prosecuting the matter (see Regulation 11(3)).

Click to expand...

Interesting, and thank you. In all honesty I have no idea about signage or wording - I just turned up late and tried to buy a ticket at the other end, which I have done several times in the past.

gray1404 said:

Was the ticket office open? If the ticket office happened to be closed then you have grounds for appeal as the ticket machine had an issue accepting cash. I would pay this now to stop the matter going any further then appeal. I would also consider appealing on the basis of the point raised above regarding signage. You will know better what, if any, signage about the Penalty Fare scheme is at the station, where it is located and you could take a photo of any such posters so we can see what it says to check if it is compliant.

Click to expand...

In all honesty I don't know whether the ticket office was open - after failing to get one from the machine the train arrived so I boarded.

I use this train about 6-8 times a year and I bet once a year I've had to buy my ticket from the on-platform desk at the destination station with no questions or queries from the staff. Just a return ticket purchased.

horsfordian said:

I use this train about 6-8 times a year and I bet once a year I've had to buy my ticket from the on-platform desk at the destination station with no questions or queries from the staff. Just a return ticket purchased.

Click to expand...

That was then. The Penalty Fare scheme has changed things, (notwithstanding any alleged flaws in its new posters), but what you used to be able to do hasn’t created a precedent.

The system relies upon signage being in place which any normal person would see and take notice of. Big yellow 'WARNING Have you Paid?' signs often accompanied by 'buy before you board' posters that you can't miss!

After you've paid, if you want to appeal go back and look at the station and see if you can understand why you ignored the signs. Take photos and then read the regulations for yourself and decide whether you think an appeal would have any chance of success e.g. if you didn't see the signs because they aren't placed so that every passenger will see one or they use incorrect words.

horsfordian said:

Interesting, and thank you. In all honesty I have no idea about signage or wording - I just turned up late and tried to buy a ticket at the other end, which I have done several times in the past.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately this is not permitted where it is possible to have bought a ticket before travel (e.g. ticket machine that accepts cash, or open ticket office). It is sometimes nevertheless 'tolerated', but as you have experienced, there are various 'punishments' that may be imposed. I would, as others have said, encourage you to pay the Penalty Fare and then to consider an appeal.

There ispoor consistency in treatment of customers and it is actually causing more problems in certain situations. In my opinion there should be action taken against all TOCs that do not provide consistency in their ticket selling rules.

The rules work both ways. We must obey them so the TOCs should too.
Either sell tickets on board or dish out penalty fares where they are due do t do what you feel like on the day. This leads people to think it's acceptable.

horsfordian said:

Hi. My defence isn't that I didn't allow sufficient time, it's that I tried to buy a ticket at the ticket office on the platform at Leeds station. This is something that I have done before, I don't know how many times but more than once. Not an eyebrow was ever raised, and in fact I thought it was the right thing to do. Not once did anyone mention reporting anyone, or that I'd done the wrong thing, they just issued me with a ticket in exchange for money!

Click to expand...

Unfortunately if there was a means to pay at your boarding station (i.e. the ticket office) you should have purchased a ticket before boarding even if it would mean missing your train. The regulations require you to have a valid ticket when travelling unless there was no means to buy a ticket.

It is also unfortunately a common trait that the rail industry is not consistent when it comes to applying penalties for not having ticket. This applies to both staff being willing to sell tickets on trains and to staff at your destination selling tickets to you for your journey. Because there is no consistency travellers think they can buy on board or at their destination but this is not the case unless the station where you boarded has no means of buying a ticket or will not take cash. (There could be other reasons but I hope you get the drift). So you thought because staff sold you tickets at your destination this was acceptable at all times.

It is of course nice that staff do not always apply the regulations at least in the case of genuine misinterpretations by travellers to save a PF or fine but they should at least tell people where they are wrong and that they could run into a revenue protection operation. Note that on some lines some stations do not have ticketing facilities so the guard can sell tickets to passengers from these stations only which only adds to the confusion.

You may have some sort of defence if you took say ten minutes to try to buy a ticket from the machine due to its complexity of use which then did not leave you time to go to the ticket office. This would "sort" of be comparable with the queue at the ticket office being too long say over ten minutes wait. There is some code of practice that should apply in these situations (ticket office queues) and there are other threads on this. However I would pay the PF and not go down this route (taking too long at a machine) as it is extremely tenuous and I think not covered by any potential code. Putting it bluntly you did not have a valid ticket and that is all that really counts to ensure a successful prosecution - valid reasons not to have one as stated above excepted. A court would probably convict you if you tried to use this reason. It is of course against all customer comes first attitudes but the railway laws are really draconian when innocent mistakes are made and very hard to contest. Chalk it up to experience and pay up. Many here will say that many passengers deliberately try it on to avoid paying and hence the rules have to be as they are.

horsfordian said:

Hi. My defence isn't that I didn't allow sufficient time, it's that I tried to buy a ticket at the ticket office on the platform at Leeds station. This is something that I have done before, I don't know how many times but more than once. Not an eyebrow was ever raised, and in fact I thought it was the right thing to do. Not once did anyone mention reporting anyone, or that I'd done the wrong thing, they just issued me with a ticket in exchange for money!

Click to expand...

That’s not a defence. You need to buy a ticket before boarding.

No matter how many times you say that you don't use the train often, you joined a que to pay or you have been able to buy one on the train before. Tough - the rules require to have a ticket before boarding. So putting those reasons to one side and focusing on what you can do.

My advise remains to pay the PF now to stop this going any further. Then return to the station and, as advised above, look at the signage about the PF scheme (if there is any) and see how noticeable it is and where such posters are located. Take a photo of the posters and we can tell you if they comply with the regulations. If they don't, there are no such posters or they are not in suitable locations then you can appeal. It doesn't cost you anything to appeal.

Legally, of course, the OP must pay the PF (signage issues notwithstanding)

However, this is part of what is wrong with the current application of penalty fares. The OP arrives with time to get their ticket. Through no fault of his own, he is unable to get one from a tvm. Having queued for the tvm and tried to use it, he doesn't have enough time for the ticket office. So he gets on the train, without a ticket with the intention of paying for his journey at the earliest opportunity. At his destination he doesn't try and sneak out without paying, but goes to try and pay for a ticket, at which point he is given a PF.

I get that we don't want a system of pay when challenged, but handing out PFs to people who are of their own volition queuing to pay is penalising those who are trying their best to use the railway honestly (even if it isn't strictly within the rules).

Albion91 said:

The OP arrives with time to get their ticket. Through no fault of his own, he is unable to get one from a tvm. Having queued for the tvm and tried to use it, he doesn't have enough time for the ticket office.

Click to expand...

You are adding some detail that the OP didn't furnish us with:

horsfordian said:

I was running late and having attempted, but failed, to buy a ticket from the machine in a manned station (no change given "overpayment not allowed" - presumably this can be verified) I boarded the train.

Click to expand...

Albion91 said:

The OP arrives with time to get their ticket. Through no fault of his own, he is unable to get one from a tvm. Having queued for the tvm and tried to use it, he doesn't have enough time for the ticket office. So he gets on the train, without a ticket with the intention of paying for his journey at the earliest opportunity.

Click to expand...

All you needed to do was read the first two lines of the OP to realise that this isn't what happened at all.

I was running late, but so was the train, so there was time for one attempt to buy a ticket but not two. I didn't have to queue at the machine. I certainly did intend to pay for my ticket, and I got as far as asking for it.

Anyway, I have paid the Penalty Fare. I shall pop down there later maybe and have a look for posters/signage. Then into town to meet my friends. On the bus.

horsfordian said:

I was running late, but so was the train, so there was time for one attempt to buy a ticket but not two. I didn't have to queue at the machine. But I certainly did intend to pay for my ticket, and I got as far as asking for it.

Click to expand...

As I said above, while the Penalty Fare was correctly issued, it is a bit unfair given the circumstances. Now that it's paid there's no harm in raising a grievance with the Customer Service side of the business over the unfairness of pulling someone from the queue at the ticket window to issue a PF.

Keep in mind though that being issued a PF doesn't imply criminal intent.

horsfordian said:

Anyway, I have paid the Penalty Fare. I shall pop down there later maybe and have a look for posters/signage. Then into town to meet my friends. On the bus.

Click to expand...

And this is exactly why the railway doesn't help itself at all with the way it goes about its policing. Now it will likely miss out on future revenue far more than the sum of the penalty fare, and when you multiply over many law abiding passengers this happens to then it really isn't a good situation.

When a customer clearly isn't trying it on, why go all the way on penalising them? Advice to not to it again will suffice. But I presume these RPIs might have been on commission, and knowing they are technically in the right means they will not have any desire to be helpful or lenient.

I'm surprised at the hostility shown towards the OP and the "its tough and your fault" attitude. However, najab above gives the best way to go forward I'd say.

horsfordian said:

This is something that I have done before, I don't know how many times but more than once. Not an eyebrow was ever raised, and in fact I thought it was the right thing to do. Not once did anyone mention reporting anyone, or that I'd done the wrong thing, they just issued me with a ticket in exchange for money!

Click to expand...

Transport Focus have previous of being receptive to this argument. You could always refer your case to them in trying to apply for your refund of the Penalty Fare.

Of course, if you mean to appeal the Penalty Fare on the grounds that Northern have not complied with The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (and I don't see a good reason not to do this, if you are interested in your money back), then you might think that this is a superfluous line of argument.

It's also noteworthy that if you offer to pay the correct fare but recieve a Penalty Fare instead, and this Penalty Fare is then subsequently overturned, your journey is actually free, and the train operator has lost its chance to charge you the correct fare for your journey.

Albion91 said:

I get that we don't want a system of pay when challenged, but handing out PFs to people who are of their own volition queuing to pay is penalising those who are trying their best to use the railway honestly (even if it isn't strictly within the rules).

Click to expand...

kristiang85 said:

When a customer clearly isn't trying it on, why go all the way on penalising them? Advice to not to it again will suffice. But I presume these RPIs might have been on commission, and knowing they are technically in the right means they will not have any desire to be helpful or lenient.

Click to expand...

It's unquestionably apalling behaviour from the train company. Unfortunately, as a result of my personal expereinces with them, it also doesn't surprise me at all. There are some people who claimed that there would be no such problems with this Penalty Fare scheme when it was first implemented, and I disagreed very strongly then. Of course, there have been many similar problems to this one posted about since on here or on Twitter, and raised with me directly, but we never heard from the defender of the poorly thought out and implemented scheme again.

If people don't challenge Penalty Fares like this, the train companies will continue to use the rights that the Government have given them in such unfair ways.

Another approach would be to contact your MP explaining why you think that Penalty Fares are unfair and lobbying them for a change in the system, or to have the government remove the power to charge Penalty Fares. This is rather unlikely to bear much fruit though given our current mess in Parliament, and is going off topic here.