Withdrawal by stealth

tom73 · 29 Dec 2018

The former British Rail had a sneaky method of withdrawing services they found "inconvenient" to operate. They would begin by cutting back services making them less attractive to rail users. Then they would cut back some more, running trains at times inconvenient to both regular users and leisure users who would find other ways to make their journey. British Rail would then have what it wanted, the excuse of "no demand for the service" to discontinue services completely.
In this 21st Century, I believe TOC's are pulling a similar stunt in respect of late night services on New Year's Eve by deliberately giving little actual detail about these services or when last trains will run. People are simply not going to take the chance that there MIGHT be trains still running around 2AM and will instead use night buses or taxis. The result is a reducing level of usage for these late night services and the perfect excuse for TOC's not needing to bother running them next New Year's Eve. In previous years, times for last trains on New Year's Eve have been clearly indicated on the website. Not so this year. The sentence "trains will continue operating until around 02:30" does not inspire confidence of actually finding a train running to your destination at 2AM

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HaggisBotherer · 29 Dec 2018

British Railways did the same thing, before Corporate Image and the shortening of the name.

Far better to stay at home and avoid the drunken crowds, anyway.

diffident · 29 Dec 2018

This is indeed a concerning issue. Surely though, TOC's have to declare the services that will be operating to NR for the purposes of planning etc??

Bletchleyite · 29 Dec 2018

tom73 said:
The former British Rail had a sneaky method of withdrawing services they found "inconvenient" to operate. They would begin by cutting back services making them less attractive to rail users. Then they would cut back some more, running trains at times inconvenient to both regular users and leisure users who would find other ways to make their journey. British Rail would then have what it wanted, the excuse of "no demand for the service" to discontinue services completely.
In this 21st Century, I believe TOC's are pulling a similar stunt in respect of late night services on New Year's Eve by deliberately giving little actual detail about these services or when last trains will run. People are simply not going to take the chance that there MIGHT be trains still running around 2AM and will instead use night buses or taxis. The result is a reducing level of usage for these late night services and the perfect excuse for TOC's not needing to bother running them next New Year's Eve. In previous years, times for last trains on New Year's Eve have been clearly indicated on the website. Not so this year. The sentence "trains will continue operating until around 02:30" does not inspire confidence of actually finding a train running to your destination at 2AM

Isn't it more that they prefer these days not to publish timetables but instead just put stuff in the planners? It's true (and annoying) that they do this for engineering works etc too.

gazthomas · 29 Dec 2018

I was at a Transport for Wales railway station quite recently and they were very open about the rubbish service they'll be operating towards the end of New Year's Eve

bobbyrail · 29 Dec 2018

tom73 said:
The former British Rail had a sneaky method of withdrawing services they found "inconvenient" to operate. They would begin by cutting back services making them less attractive to rail users. Then they would cut back some more, running trains at times inconvenient to both regular users and leisure users who would find other ways to make their journey. British Rail would then have what it wanted, the excuse of "no demand for the service" to discontinue services completely.
In this 21st Century, I believe TOC's are pulling a similar stunt in respect of late night services on New Year's Eve by deliberately giving little actual detail about these services or when last trains will run. People are simply not going to take the chance that there MIGHT be trains still running around 2AM and will instead use night buses or taxis. The result is a reducing level of usage for these late night services and the perfect excuse for TOC's not needing to bother running them next New Year's Eve. In previous years, times for last trains on New Year's Eve have been clearly indicated on the website. Not so this year. The sentence "trains will continue operating until around 02:30" does not inspire confidence of actually finding a train running to your destination at 2AM

So from what you are saying can i take it you would happily forgo your New years eve celebrations so that others can travel unimpeded until go knows what hour in the morning?? Personally if i was going out on New years eve it would be local and if not i would not be depending on public transport. People who work on the railways would maybe like to join in the welcoming of the new year also. Why do you think they should work when you are clearly not???

chorleyjeff · 29 Dec 2018

bobbyrail said:
So from what you are saying can i take it you would happily forgo your New years eve celebrations so that others can travel unimpeded until go knows what hour in the morning?? Personally if i was going out on New years eve it would be local and if not i would not be depending on public transport. People who work on the railways would maybe like to join in the welcoming of the new year also. Why do you think they should work when you are clearly not???

It is part of the job to work unsocial hours like Fire Service, Police, NHS medical staff etc etc.

Mathew S · 29 Dec 2018

Correct me if I am mistaken, by all means, but surely train running schedules are loaded into journey planners for New Year's Eve just as they are for any other day? Really not sure I see what the problem is?

30907 · 29 Dec 2018

I've checked a few TOC pages on NRE and haven't found one that is anything like the OP's description.

pdeaves · 29 Dec 2018

At least one TOC I know of tried (at the very least; may have succeeded, I don't know) to increase the service provision this year.

Bedpan · 30 Dec 2018

Down in Bedpan land we have historically had a worse overnight service on New Years Eve/Day than other days of the year (except for Sunday mornings when there has no overnight service). For years there has been roughly a train an hour through the night and more recently, until the May timetable change, two trains an hour. But on New Years Eve/Day night there for the last few years, there has been a fairly extensive service (maybe one train every 20 mins or so from memory) until (again from memory) about 3 or 3.30 am, but this has only run as far north as St Albans, and there have been no overnight trains at all to stations north of St Albans, leaving stations from Harpenden to Bedford with nothing. I can't remember what time the last train has been, but it has been earlier than the last Sunday morning trains.

This year, we have a reasonable all night service for once with a train at least every 30 minutes from St Pancras to Bedford all through the night other than an hour's gap from 01.45 to 02.45, and quite a few St Albans terminators in addition.

However, supporting the tone of this thread, a superficial glance at the Thameslink and national Rail websites might give the unwary traveller the impression that the last train from Bedford to London on NYE will leave at around 20.00. Although reading more carefully indicates this to be applicable only to East Midlands trains, as usual the position is not confirmed very well (as it doesn't mention Thameslink in a Bedford context) and could easily deter people from travelling......if any more deterrent is needed after the last six months.

Joe Paxton · 30 Dec 2018

HaggisBotherer said:
British Railways did the same thing, before Corporate Image and the shortening of the name.

Far better to stay at home and avoid the drunken crowds, anyway.

Bah humbug.

jimm · 30 Dec 2018

Bedpan said:
Down in Bedpan land we have historically had a worse overnight service on New Years Eve/Day than other days of the year (except for Sunday mornings when there has no overnight service). For years there has been roughly a train an hour through the night and more recently, until the May timetable change, two trains an hour. But on New Years Eve/Day night there for the last few years, there has been a fairly extensive service (maybe one train every 20 mins or so from memory) until (again from memory) about 3 or 3.30 am, but this has only run as far north as St Albans, and there have been no overnight trains at all to stations north of St Albans, leaving stations from Harpenden to Bedford with nothing. I can't remember what time the last train has been, but it has been earlier than the last Sunday morning trains.

This year, we have a reasonable all night service for once with a train at least every 30 minutes from St Pancras to Bedford all through the night other than an hour's gap from 01.45 to 02.45, and quite a few St Albans terminators in addition.

However, supporting the tone of this thread, a superficial glance at the Thameslink and national Rail websites might give the unwary traveller the impression that the last train from Bedford to London on NYE will leave at around 20.00. Although reading more carefully indicates this to be applicable only to East Midlands trains, as usual the position is not confirmed very well (as it doesn't mention Thameslink in a Bedford context) and could easily deter people from travelling......if any more deterrent is needed after the last six months.

Do you really think the average passenger spends their time scrabbling around in the depths of the National Rail or TOC websites reading summaries of what services are running to find out information about whether or not there will be a train at the time they want - at any time of the year, not just Christmas and New Year? They just use an online journey planner and couldn't care less which TOC is providing the train.

higthomas · 30 Dec 2018

It could be worse, you could be trying to catch a bus in London. This is tfls advice:

Buses after 19:30
From 19:30, buses will operate from hub locations:

Elephant & Castle - for south-east, south-west and south London

Holborn - for east and north-east London

Oxford Circus - for east, west and north-west London

Tottenham Court Road - for north and north-east London

Green Park - for west and south-west London

Victoria - for south, south-west and north-west London

These services are running all night:

Whole route: 51, 56, 97, 109, 115, 118, 161, 248, 333, 358, 414, 415, 422, 432 and 476

Part of route: 45, 174, 185, 388

Most bus services are expected to return to normal by 06:00 except those affected by the New Year's Day parade.

See all today's planned bus changes on our Bus status updates map for Monday 31 December.

Now, I'd like a little more detail, e.g. what about cross London buses, which zone does my bus fit into, how frequently are the extra buses running, are Weekend only night buses running, heck which part of the 45 is running?!

And no, their status map isn't helpful, not showing anything on either my phone or tablet. Here (And yes, I do actually intend to make use of their services on NYE)

CyrusWuff · 30 Dec 2018

higthomas said:
Now, I'd like a little more detail, e.g. what about cross London buses, which zone does my bus fit into, how frequently are the extra buses running, are Weekend only night buses running, heck which part of the 45 is running?!

I suspect their answer would be "Check the journey planner" since budget cuts mean they no longer print the "Festive Travel" booklet (at least I haven't seen one this year), which featured a map showing what routes served each hub.

Carlisle · 30 Dec 2018

gazthomas said:
I was at a Transport for Wales railway station quite recently and they were very open about the rubbish service they'll be operating towards the end of New Year's Eve

No surprise, it’s never been any secret today’s balkanised railway is a heaven for all party’s to simply blame each other, then sit back whilst almost nothing changes

Joe Paxton · 30 Dec 2018

higthomas said:
It could be worse, you could be trying to catch a bus in London. This is tfls advice:
[...]

Now, I'd like a little more detail, e.g. what about cross London buses, which zone does my bus fit into, how frequently are the extra buses running, are Weekend only night buses running, heck which part of the 45 is running?!

And no, their status map isn't helpful, not showing anything on either my phone or tablet. Here (And yes, I do actually intend to make use of their services on NYE)

There is information provided, but it's pretty hidden and hardly intuitive.

You need to go to the Bus status updates page (for the 31st Dec), then enter the route number in the search box, then click on the 'Status alert' box + (plus) sign to expand the information.

For the route 45, it reads:

New Years Eve Celebrations: Route 45: From 1930 New Years Eve until 0600 Tuesday 1 January, no service between Elephant & Castle and Kings Cross.

This diminished route isn't actually represented on the map though, rather the normal full route is shown, which is fairly rubbish.

CyrusWuff said:
I suspect their answer would be "Check the journey planner" since budget cuts mean they no longer print the "Festive Travel" booklet (at least I haven't seen one this year), which featured a map showing what routes served each hub.

Hasn't been a booklet for the past few years. Not ideal, but I guess given the hard choice between cutting the printed publicity budget and cutting actual services...

However, to go back to the OP, I wouldn't count this as a 'stealth' way for TfL to cut their NYE sevices - they're always pretty busy.

Dr Hoo · 30 Dec 2018

Carlisle said:
No surprise, it’s never been any secret today’s balkanised railway is a heaven for all party’s to simply blame each other, then sit back whilst almost nothing changes

Could you clarify which industry parties have been blaming each other over this issue?

Joe Paxton · 30 Dec 2018

Indeed. From what gazthomas said upthread...

gazthomas said:
I was at a Transport for Wales railway station quite recently and they were very open about the rubbish service they'll be operating towards the end of New Year's Eve

...it doesn't sound like TfW are blaming anyone.

Carlisle · 30 Dec 2018

Dr Hoo said:
Could you clarify which industry parties have been blaming each other over this issue?

The post referred to Transport For Wales services, which according to their website wind down after 20 00 New Years Eve.
If there’s likley to be significant demand for trains after this time that clearly isn’t being met then either the various parties responsible should work more effectively together or the contractual complexities of the current structure simply aren’t flexible enough to provide them.

Bookd · 30 Dec 2018

Most London buses will be running, mostly with an enhanced service, but cross-London routes will probably stop at the boundary or have extensive diversions. Most roads in the centre of London and Westminster will be closed to all traffic so there is no alternative other than Underground or NR.

deltic · 30 Dec 2018

Carlisle said:
The post referred to Transport For Wales services, which according to their website wind down after 20 00 New Years Eve.
If there’s likley to be significant demand for trains after this time that clearly isn’t being met then either the various parties responsible should work more effectively together or the contractual complexities of the current structure simply aren’t flexible enough to provide them.

IF it’s not in the Franchise agreement it won’t run. How much demand is there for late night trains on New Years Eve from major cities apart from London and Edinburgh? Does Scotrail run any services for the Hogmanay celebrations?

30907 · 30 Dec 2018

deltic said:
IF it’s not in the Franchise agreement it won’t run. How much demand is there for late night trains on New Years Eve from major cities apart from London and Edinburgh? Does Scotrail run any services for the Hogmanay celebrations?

Northern round Newcastle close early and have done since BR days, as does Scotrail (ditto). Tyneside has always followed Scots practice in celebrating New Year, long before the rest of England. I didn't realise TfW followed suit.

BurtonM · 30 Dec 2018

Northern can't even grasp decent warnings of rail replacement services, it's not that they're trying to stem travel, more that their approach to publicity is 'we put a notice on our website somewhere you might not even find it, in an awkward format that only makes sense to railwaymen, why didn't you read and/or understand it?'

Withdrawal by stealth

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