Robin Hood Line to Mansfield Woodhouse – good, steady growth

70014IronDuke · 2 Jan 2019

Just looking at the passenger usage figures for this route. The northern end is mixed – it would appear to have grown a bit (mainly due to Shireoaks) - but every station on the Nottingham – Mansfield Woodhouse section has been doing very well over the past four years.

In fact, assuming the data on Wikipedia has been copied in correctly, in that period only one negative figure appears – Newstead took a small dip in 2015/6 vs 2014-5. Ironically, the growth figure for Newstead is the largest in percentage terms, although this is from the smallest base figure (28,624).

This is a summary of the record, with the % increase based on the 2017-18 data vs 2013-14.

STATION - Usage - % increase
2017-18
Bulwell 61,138 +31.2%
Hucknall 179k +34.6%
Newstead 41,802 +46.0%

Kirkby-A 185,226 +25.6%
Sutton-A 196,364 +45.2%

Mansfield 409k +30.0%
M Whouse 185,826 +33.1%

TOTAL 1,258,356 +33.2%

Without doing the finer maths, I suppose that is equivalent to about 7.5% annual growth along the route over the past 4 years. I don't suppose this sets any records, but it's no longer a 'new route' (ie enjoying rapid growth because of its 'newness') – as far as I'm aware – there have been no service improvements on the line in the period reviewed.

Makes one wonder re the future? Are most trains now well filled? Does it need longer or more trains and, longer term, would traffic justify the investment needed to make Sheffield, rather than Worksop, the terminus at the northern end of the line? (If, indeed, it could be done – I don't know the area at the junction?)

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lammergeier · 2 Jan 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Makes one wonder re the future? Are most trains now well filled? Does it need longer or more trains and, longer term, would traffic justify the investment needed to make Sheffield, rather than Worksop, the terminus at the northern end of the line? (If, indeed, it could be done – I don't know the area at the junction?)

It would require reversal at Worksop, although that isn't in itself a problem as the move is already signalled. The problem, I suspect, would lie at the Sheffield end and how to find a path across Nunnery Jcn.

Yew · 2 Jan 2019

I have often wondered about extending to retford, for ECML Access, but the issue is that you would probably need another unit to maintain clockface service.

tbtc · 2 Jan 2019

70014IronDuke said:
as far as I'm aware – there have been no service improvements on the line in the period reviewed

Agreed - it seems to have had the same trains, same frequency etc since EMT took over from Central Trains (under Central you got more variety of DMUs on local routes but I can't recall seeing a 170 on the Robin Hood services).

Any passenger number increases therefore feel "fair" to me (you are comparing apples with apples, rather than some of the hyped comparisons on the Forum where people find extreme figures to compare, e.g. on a line that was closed for significant parts of a previous year or has had upgraded infrastructure/frequencies).

It's not even as if the parallel bus service has had big cuts recently (Stagecoach are investing in brand new double deckers for the "Pronto"), which sometimes explains such rises in railway numbers (been a long time since the Stagecoach 757 from Nottingham/ Mansfield to Worksop/Doncaster!).

The Robin Hood line seems a good example of a "steady as she goes" service seeing improved passenger numbers.

lammergeier said:
The problem, I suspect, would lie at the Sheffield end and how to find a path across Nunnery Jcn

There's a second path per hour from Sheffield to Worksop, due to be used by the hourly Sheffield - Retford stopper (when the Leeds - Sheffield - Lincoln service is speeded up to omit Darnall etc), so the question is whether that path would be better used by a Sheffield - Worksop - Retford service or a Sheffield - Worksop - Mansfield - Nottingham service. I can see logic in both, but the Retford service is the commitment in the Northern franchise (though there are various commitments in that franchise that aren't being delivered!).

Otherwise, the only "through" service from Sheffield to the intermediate Robin Hood stations is the 17:45 departure (15:52 ex Liverpool) - at Nottingham the front two carriages go forward to Norwich as usual on that route but the rear two head to Mansfield (arr 18:28) and stations to Worksop.

edwin_m · 2 Jan 2019

Does the source for those figures include any older ones? I suspect patronage may have dropped in the years preceding 2013, as the area was hit quite hard by recession and austerity, so some of this growth could be a recovery from a previous dip.

The infamous Sports Direct warehouse and other nearby development may explain growth at Shirebrook, but as suggested the area north of Mansfield tends to look more to Sheffield than to Nottingham. Shirebrook had at one time three rail routes west or northwestwards. Perhaps reopening one of them to provide a link to Sheffield would have been more beneficial (though more expensive) than reinstating passenger service on the extant but freight-only line to Worksop.

70014IronDuke · 2 Jan 2019

edwin_m said:
Does the source for those figures include any older ones? I suspect patronage may have dropped in the years preceding 2013, as the area was hit quite hard by recession and austerity, so some of this growth could be a recovery from a previous dip.

I've not got time right now to check all the stations, but you are correct regarding Mansfields and Kirkby-n-A. (I did not choose the year 2013 to massage the percentages - it is just on the Wikipages the data only goes back to that year, making it easier to compare.)

Nonetheless, the usage for 2017-18 represents increases over the better years of 2010-13 from what i can see at a glance - just not so impressive.

edwin_m said:
The infamous Sports Direct warehouse and other nearby development may explain growth at Shirebrook, but as suggested the area north of Mansfield tends to look more to Sheffield than to Nottingham. Shirebrook had at one time three rail routes west or northwestwards. Perhaps reopening one of them to provide a link to Sheffield would have been more beneficial (though more expensive) than reinstating passenger service on the extant but freight-only line to Worksop.

I would agree. I think this has been discussed previously. The caveat being that local authority's reach did not stretch to Sheffield - so that development could not be funded.

robbeech · 2 Jan 2019

There has been talk in the past of extending 1tp2h to Lincoln from Worksop but nothing has come of this.
Passenger numbers at some of the northern stations (Whitwell being my local station) are increasing a little bit not huge amounts. But with poor connections at worksop for Sheffield or Retford (40 minutes wait) and poor through fares meaning it’s cheaper to split, and therefore actually cheaper and more convenient to get the bus or drive to Worksop. I appreciate there’s little can be done about this and it’s not a complaint, just an observation of the current limitations.

TheBigD · 2 Jan 2019

Whilst not diagrammed daily, 170s were regular visitors to the line back in Central Trains days. 170513 also carried a Robin Hood line promotional livery for a while.

The service has seen some reductions since Central Trains days, the 1725 ex Nottingham were reduced from 3 car to 2 car when EMT took over. The 1655 ex Nottingham was also reduced from 3 car to 2 car a few years earlier, possibly when the tram line was opened.

Harpers Tate · 2 Jan 2019

70014IronDuke said:
....would traffic justify the investment needed to make Sheffield, rather than Worksop, the terminus at the northern end of the line? (If, indeed, it could be done – I don't know the area at the junction?)

lammergeier said:
It would require reversal at Worksop, although that isn't in itself a problem as the move is already signalled. The problem, I suspect, would lie at the Sheffield end and how to find a path across Nunnery Jcn.

It would only require a reversal at Worksop if the service were to continue to serve Worksop. A train can proceed directly between Shireoaks and Whitwell (& vv) without reversal.

It certainly seems to me that, for the northern-most stations at least, there would be a greater passenger "draw" for Sheffield and Meadowhall, as opposed to Worksop. Given either a direct service or very good connections - and sensible fare levels.

LowLevel · 2 Jan 2019

The bottom end is busy enough nowadays. Ticket vending machines are in place now which may have helped improve the efficiency of fare collection but anecdotally they're not very reliable and plenty of fares are still collected on board.

The Sunday special offer £3 flat fare is very popular indeed.

North of Shirebrook has comparatively low usage but being the area it is the people who do use the train tend to depend on it. Most local flows at that end tend be to Mansfield and while there are people travelling across Mansfield (particularly in the peak and at weekends) from the north end to Nottingham there's a definite trend of Worksop/Shirebrook to Mansfield journeys and also local Kirkby to Mansfield journeys.

The lion's share of traffic is to Nottingham though.

ashworth · 3 Jan 2019

I agree with others that the Southern section of the line between Mansfield Woodhouse and Nottingham has been a great success and is very well used. North of Mansfield the hourly trains to Worksop are usually very quiet with Mansfield to Shirebrook attracting the most passengers on that section. Langwith and Whitwell Stations have extremely low usage and Cresswell is not that much better.

The whole service on the line gives priority to getting passengers to and from Nottingham. Even on the busy southern section of the line, such priority is given to providing a regular service into Nottingham during the morning peak, whilst there is a gap of almost 90 minutes between northbound trains during the morning peak. People in the settlements north of Mansfield do not really look to Nottingham for employment, shopping or leisure. People do use the train to travel into Mansfield but most would probably rather go to Sheffield or Chesterfield by bus. Right from the re-opening of the line travel to and from Sheffield has been very unappealing due to very long waits of up to 45 minutes for connections at Worksop.

The proposed new timetable by Northern with half hourly trains betweeen Worksop and Sheffield ought to speed up journeys between Mansfield and Sheffield considerably. With better connections at Worksop I don’t think there will initiallly be hoards of new passengers on the northern section of the Robin Hood Line, but I do think there is the potential for steady growth. Currently for most journeys from Mansfield to destinations in the north of England including Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester it is quicker to first travel south via Nottingham. Consequently the online journey planners only show journeys via Nottingham unless you specifically request via Worksop. There is actually a cheaper fare to Sheffield via Worksop and by using this fare and splitting at Sheffield travel to destinations beyond Sheffield can work out cheaper via Worksop. If there were better connections at Worksop, offering faster journeys to Sheffield which would show up on the journey planners I am sure that many passengers from Mansfield and Kirkby, Sutton and even Hucknall would travel that way to northern destinations.

53703 · 3 Jan 2019

Is there still a freight line from Shirebrook to Ollerton? If so would there be any demand for Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse trains to be extended with stations being built at Warsop, Edwinstone/Sherwood Forest and Ollerton?

robbeech · 3 Jan 2019

53703 said:
Is there still a freight line from Shirebrook to Ollerton? If so would there be any demand for Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse trains to be extended with stations being built at Warsop, Edwinstone/Sherwood Forest and Ollerton?

It has been talked about some years ago but I don’t think anything got past the initial ideas phase to the looking at it phase. Until recently (and most likely still currently) the freight line was still used, at least in part. A friend of mine lives next to the line in Warsop and I remember a train passing at 0400 ish each morning if I stayed there.

robbeech · 3 Jan 2019

ashworth said:
I agree with others that the Southern section of the line between Mansfield Woodhouse and Nottingham has been a great success and is very well used. North of Mansfield the hourly trains to Worksop are usually very quiet with Mansfield to Shirebrook attracting the most passengers on that section. Langwith and Whitwell Stations have extremely low usage and Cresswell is not that much better.

The whole service on the line gives priority to getting passengers to and from Nottingham. Even on the busy southern section of the line, such priority is given to providing a regular service into Nottingham during the morning peak, whilst there is a gap of almost 90 minutes between northbound trains during the morning peak. People in the settlements north of Mansfield do not really look to Nottingham for employment, shopping or leisure. People do use the train to travel into Mansfield but most would probably rather go to Sheffield or Chesterfield by bus. Right from the re-opening of the line travel to and from Sheffield has been very unappealing due to very long waits of up to 45 minutes for connections at Worksop.

The proposed new timetable by Northern with half hourly trains betweeen Worksop and Sheffield ought to speed up journeys between Mansfield and Sheffield considerably. With better connections at Worksop I don’t think there will initiallly be hoards of new passengers on the northern section of the Robin Hood Line, but I do think there is the potential for steady growth. Currently for most journeys from Mansfield to destinations in the north of England including Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester it is quicker to first travel south via Nottingham. Consequently the online journey planners only show journeys via Nottingham unless you specifically request via Worksop. There is actually a cheaper fare to Sheffield via Worksop and by using this fare and splitting at Sheffield travel to destinations beyond Sheffield can work out cheaper via Worksop. If there were better connections at Worksop, offering faster journeys to Sheffield which would show up on the journey planners I am sure that many passengers from Mansfield and Kirkby, Sutton and even Hucknall would travel that way to northern destinations.

There are huge fare differences from northern half to southern half on medium distance journeys which will likely put off people who don’t know about splitting.
For example Shirebrook to York SOR is an eye watering £49.50 but a Mansfield Woodhouse to York is a monumentally unacceptable £89.50.

edwin_m · 3 Jan 2019

Perhaps the doubling of the Sheffield-Worksop service wil

robbeech said:
It has been talked about some years ago but I don’t think anything got past the initial ideas phase to the looking at it phase. Until recently (and most likely still currently) the freight line was still used, at least in part. A friend of mine lives next to the line in Warsop and I remember a train passing at 0400 ish each morning if I stayed there.

This line served various collieries, all now closed, but is used by Network Rail as a test track for on-track plant. I guess this use could move elsewhere if there was a decision to reinstate passenger service.

LowLevel · 3 Jan 2019

robbeech said:
It has been talked about some years ago but I don’t think anything got past the initial ideas phase to the looking at it phase. Until recently (and most likely still currently) the freight line was still used, at least in part. A friend of mine lives next to the line in Warsop and I remember a train passing at 0400 ish each morning if I stayed there.

I believe the new franchisee is to provide a costed option for reinstating the line to Ollerton.

bunnahabhain · 3 Jan 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Makes one wonder re the future? Are most trains now well filled? Does it need longer or more trains and, longer term, would traffic justify the investment needed to make Sheffield, rather than Worksop, the terminus at the northern end of the line? (If, indeed, it could be done – I don't know the area at the junction?)

A lot of the AM peak trains have become very busy over the last few years including ones which didn't used to be, the first two are now regularly full into Nottingham and the rest are usually full and standing or close to it. I know a priority is to get the 1726 Nottingham to Worksop up to 3 cars.

Personally for me an 1826 addition to at least Mansfield Woodhouse should come in the next franchise and possibly an extra one or two AM services.

70014IronDuke · 3 Jan 2019

Harpers Tate said:
It would only require a reversal at Worksop if the service were to continue to serve Worksop. A train can proceed directly between Shireoaks and Whitwell (& vv) without reversal. ... .

So there is [still] a triangular junction off the Mansfield line with the old MS&L line then? I hadn't realised that. I had assumed there used to be one, but it had been lifted.

70014IronDuke · 3 Jan 2019

bunnahabhain said:
A lot of the AM peak trains have become very busy over the last few years including ones which didn't used to be, the first two are now regularly full into Nottingham and the rest are usually full and standing or close to it. I know a priority is to get the 1726 Nottingham to Worksop up to 3 cars. ,,,.

Very interesting. Are these early arrivals the ones that continue to Norwich (although only one advertised as such)? Do many people stay on board for further travel?

robbeech said:
There are huge fare differences from northern half to southern half on medium distance journeys which will likely put off people who don’t know about splitting.
For example Shirebrook to York SOR is an eye watering £49.50 but a Mansfield Woodhouse to York is a monumentally unacceptable £89.50.

That's one way to make sure few people travel by train, I suppose. Bonkers.

70014IronDuke · 3 Jan 2019

ashworth said:
...

The whole service on the line gives priority to getting passengers to and from Nottingham. Even on the busy southern section of the line, such priority is given to providing a regular service into Nottingham during the morning peak, whilst there is a gap of almost 90 minutes between northbound trains during the morning peak. ...

Yes. I've noticed that there are no trains arriving at Mansfield convenient for an 09.00 office start, neither from the south or north. Might not be a huge market, but with the service as it is, it can't be tested.

TheBigD · 3 Jan 2019

bunnahabhain said:
I know a priority is to get the 1726 Nottingham to Worksop up to 3 cars.

It used to be 3 cars until the December 2008 timetable after Central Trains was split and EMT didn't have enough rolling stock.

TheBigD · 3 Jan 2019

bunnahabhain said:
Personally for me an 1826 addition to at least Mansfield Woodhouse should come in the next franchise and possibly an extra one or two AM services.

Surprised this hasn't happened before using the unit that arrives from Mansfield at 1819.

There would need to be a bit of a rejig of units as this unit currently goes to Skegness at 1845 and the Skegness arrival at 1820 goes to the Matlock at 1920, with the 1845 ex Worksop going to the depot.

ChrisC · 3 Jan 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Yes. I've noticed that there are no trains arriving at Mansfield convenient for an 09.00 office start, neither from the south or north. Might not be a huge market, but with the service as it is, it can't be tested.

There are departures to Nottingham from Mansfield during the morning peak at 0621, 0711, 0729, 0743, 0810 and 0910. There really ought to be a departure from Mansfield at around 0840. Seems strange when there is a half hourly service throughout the day that there is not a train at this busy time.
In the other direction the only arrivals in Mansfield from Nottingham are at 0613, 0638, 0740 and then 0900. A very big gap at the busiest time.
The main problem is to enable such a frequent service into Nottingham, during the morning peak, it is difficult to timetable north bound trains through the single line section between Bulwell and Kirkby in Ashfield. The line north of Hucknall station to Newstead through Linby should not have been singled when the line was re-opened.

LowLevel · 3 Jan 2019

70014IronDuke said:
So there is [still] a triangular junction off the Mansfield line with the old MS&L line then? I hadn't realised that. I had assumed there used to be one, but it had been lifted.

It's a freight only chord.

Mitch in Notts · 3 Jan 2019

ChrisC said:
The main problem is to enable such a frequent service into Nottingham, during the morning peak, it is difficult to timetable north bound trains through the single line section between Bulwell and Kirkby in Ashfield. The line north of Hucknall station to Newstead through Linby should not have been singled when the line was re-opened.

The issue didn't really develop until the arrival of the Nottingham Tram. That led to further singling of the line in the Bulwell area which eventually led to a timetable recast and it is noticeable that delays now are caused by the longer single track section. When removing track for the tram that track should have been put to use north of Hucknall and thus reduced the time southbound trains spend waiting for northbound trains to clear the single track section at Kirkby South Junction.

MichaelAMW · 3 Jan 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
The issue didn't really develop until the arrival of the Nottingham Tram. That led to further singling of the line in the Bulwell area which eventually led to a timetable recast and it is noticeable that delays now are caused by the longer single track section. When removing track for the tram that track should have been put to use north of Hucknall and thus reduced the time southbound trains spend waiting for northbound trains to clear the single track section at Kirkby South Junction.

There are two passing loops on the single line from Bulwell to Kirkby. If they were used more then it would be easy to provide a timetable that is more frequent or reliable or better matched to demand in terms of times train run. There would be an effect on overall journey times, of I guess 5 minutes while trains waited, but for a local route like that it would be a small price to pay if the gain were trains running on time or actually running when needed.

ChrisC · 4 Jan 2019

Mitch in Notts said:
The issue didn't really develop until the arrival of the Nottingham Tram. That led to further singling of the line in the Bulwell area which eventually led to a timetable recast and it is noticeable that delays now are caused by the longer single track section. When removing track for the tram that track should have been put to use north of Hucknall and thus reduced the time southbound trains spend waiting for northbound trains to clear the single track section at Kirkby South Junction.

I agree that the arrival of the Nottingham Tram did not help and resulted in further singling of the line in the Bulwell area. However, although this track could have been put to use north of Hucknall, the line north of Hucknall should not have been singled a few years previous. The line had always remained double track right up to Newstead Colliery, and following the closure of Newstead Colliery in 1987, the double track remained in position.

When the first stage of the Robin Hood Line opened as far as Newstead in 1993, the line was singled from Moorbridge, just north of Bulwell northwards. The line south of Hucknall needed to be singled due to the future tram development, but the long straight section north of Hucknall up to Newstead did not need to be singled. After the line was extended through to Mansfield Woodhouse and finally Worksop, a passing loop was put in just north of Newstead Station but I’m not sure how often it is actually used as I be never been on a train that has used it. The other passing loop near Moorbridge seems to be used slightly more frequently.

70014IronDuke · 4 Jan 2019

LowLevel said:
It's a freight only chord.

OK, thanks, but it would not be an enormous cost to get it to passenger standards, presumably? At least, much cheaper than reinstating one that's been taken out.

Tomnick · 4 Jan 2019

ChrisC said:
...the line north of Hucknall should not have been singled a few years previous. The line had always remained double track right up to Newstead Colliery, and following the closure of Newstead Colliery in 1987, the double track remained in position.

When the first stage of the Robin Hood Line opened as far as Newstead in 1993, the line was singled from Moorbridge, just north of Bulwell northwards. The line south of Hucknall needed to be singled due to the future tram development, but the long straight section north of Hucknall up to Newstead did not need to be singled.

It's academic as we can't change what's already been done - but I suspect that simplifying the signalling north of Bestwood Park was the only way that phase one could've been achieved with the funding available. The cost of providing and signalling a single-to-double connection north of Hucknall and signalling to turn back at Newstead (as opposed to 'one train working' with a train staff) would've almost certainly been prohibitive at the time, and we might have ended up with no Robin Hood Line at all.

ChrisC said:
After the line was extended through to Mansfield Woodhouse and finally Worksop, a passing loop was put in just north of Newstead Station but I’m not sure how often it is actually used as I be never been on a train that has used it. The other passing loop near Moorbridge seems to be used slightly more frequently.

It's used fairly often during disruption, and two trains are booked to cross there in the morning peak too.

MichaelAMW said:
There are two passing loops on the single line from Bulwell to Kirkby. If they were used more then it would be easy to provide a timetable that is more frequent or reliable or better matched to demand in terms of times train run. There would be an effect on overall journey times, of I guess 5 minutes while trains waited, but for a local route like that it would be a small price to pay if the gain were trains running on time or actually running when needed.

I don't think making more planned use of the crossing loops would do much for reliability. As it is, things are quite tight at either end of the single line, but the option to get an Up train as far as Newstead Loop to cross a delayed Down train there (and v.v. for Bestwood Park loop) gives some opportunity for service recovery and it never seems to take that long to get things back on time. You could probably thread an extra Down train into that eighty minute gap in the morning peak by nipping it into one or both loops, which would fill the gap on the Up too if it turned back at Mansfield Woodhouse, but I suspect that it's as much about the availability of units as it is about capacity on the single line.

edwin_m · 4 Jan 2019

70014IronDuke said:
OK, thanks, but it would not be an enormous cost to get it to passenger standards, presumably? At least, much cheaper than reinstating one that's been taken out.

I think it's academic, as while Worksop isn't a major regional centre it's probably considered too important a station for a local service to avoid calling there.

Robin Hood Line to Mansfield Woodhouse – good, steady growth

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