People Opposed to Contacless Payments - Why?

jon0844 · 30 Jan 2019

The myth that people will walk alongside you and charge your card £30 is something spread by those seeking to get you to buy RFID blocking wallets.

No harm buying one if you want, but some are silly money and are sold by spreading fear.

And as for wireless key fobs being scanned, I don't think that is what happens. Rather someone is boosting the signal so a key in your hallway is now able to unlock the car on your driveway. Once started the key is no longer needed, but later on it will be immobilised. I assume the car is either hacked to start when time isn't an issue, or the car is broken down for parts.

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snail · 30 Jan 2019

I prefer contactless because I can never remember which PIN goes with which card! I also have a couple set up for Apple Pay and if I use one of those cards on contactless I get an instant notification on my phone, so if someone was scamming me I should find out quickly.

sprunt · 30 Jan 2019

Andy25 said:
Why not register your bank card and get rid of the oyster card?

It would be more expensive. I have a monthly travelcard on my Oyster card.

Bletchleyite · 30 Jan 2019

cjp said:
Starling text me after each entry in or out goes through their system

Monzo notify me via the app, texts would be annoying. But I'm much happier with that than without, as if I knew I'd lost my card I could block it easily (you can also log in on their website to do it), and if I didn't know I'd know and do it as soon as I got the first notification for a transaction I didn't make, so a maximum realistic loss of £30, which the retailer accepting it is totally liable for (via the bank) so I will get it back - it's almost as good as the Direct Debit guarantee. (Contactless is at retailer risk, not bank risk - the banks are not stupid!)

Bletchleyite · 30 Jan 2019

Arctic Troll said:
I don't think it would or could become widespread. To debit money from accounts you need access to the banking system, and that doesn't come without a paper trail. The card reader is linked to someone. Hard to scam when the bank know who you are.

Hardly worth the hassle when easier and more proven techniques, such as phishing or cloning, can give bigger rewards.

Agreed. After the first case, the person involved would never get another merchant account (and may well be in prison for a fair while with a fraud conviction).

PeterC · 30 Jan 2019

Andy25 said:
Why not register your bank card and get rid of the oyster card? Few people seem to use the dedicated oyster cards anymore and you don't need to have credit sat in TFL's account. As long you register it first you can log in and check all recent journeys

My Oyster card sits in a dedicated Oyster wallet in an outside pocket. My debit and credit cards are in another wallet in an inside pocket and don't get waved about at busy ticket gates.

I have no fear about somebody using a reader on my cards, two together will cause card clash anyway and I think that I would notice somebody trying to rub a reading device against my left tit.

Mutant Lemming · 31 Jan 2019

Card clash, cloning, different cards for small amounts and larger purchases, fear of fraud.... it's actually making cash sound a lot simpler and easier.

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2019

Mutant Lemming said:
Card clash, cloning, different cards for small amounts and larger purchases, fear of fraud.... it's actually making cash sound a lot simpler and easier.

Until you lose or get your wallet nicked.

Bertie the bus · 31 Jan 2019

eastwestdivide said:
Privacy?
Some people might prefer the privacy of cash. i.e. the bank doesn't have a record of everything you buy.

Trust?
Some people might not trust the system to take the right amount, or might think there's nefarious additional machines that can detect the contactless card from a distance.

I agree with both of those and add an increased potential for fraud, the fact part of the "customer experience" is for the bank to periodically decline transactions and finally the fact contactless doesn't benefit me in the slightest.

I used to be one of those people who had a contactless card but refused to use it as contactless until I decided that was pretty pointless and so told my bank to issue me with a non-contactless one. When my other card expires next year I will do the same.

Mutant Lemming · 31 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Until you lose or get your wallet nicked.

You mean the one with the cards in it ?

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2019

Mutant Lemming said:
You mean the one with the cards in it ?

Yes, the one with the cards in it. If the cash is nicked, it's gone, you won't get it back. If the cards are nicked, your bank can block them and will refund any fraudulent transactions made using contactless.

hooverboy · 31 Jan 2019

whhistle said:
I hope this won't turn into an argument sort of thread, so please be respectful.
However, I am at a loss why some people don't like contactless payments.

I hear it a fair bit ("I don't do contactless"), but I'm not sure why people take this approach.
It's not just because it's change.

Contactless is enabled on their card by default (yes, I am aware of having to use a pin payment before hand), so using it isn't going to be any less secure than putting a pin in. This is the only reason I can think of. It's that because someone hasn't entered a pin, then they feel they aren't authorising a payment (even though by standing there buying a magazine, they are!).

Does anyone know why some people are opposed to contactless payments?

ok I'll bite.
there IS a security concern with contactless cards.
all devices like this (nfc-Near Field Communication) are vulnerable to being "picked up" by criminal types with specialised scanners.

what the scanners do is "ping" a signal that the cards operate on, and there is a little transmitter/receiver in the card which will activate and send back another signal to the scanner.
(That's the basic version anyway, it's not just an RF signal but a digital code as well)
the digital part of the code is individual to each card, and that's the bit organised criminals and hackers are interested in.

this data can be collected from some way away, a couple of feet is possible with sophistaicated gear, but a typical thief would have a device scanning in his/her pocket and standing close enough to you( maybe brush past you in a busy street etc), to get a reading.
You have to consider this the modern approach to pickpocketing, and take precautions.

now there ARE remedies.
1) buy ready made RF shielded wallet/purse. These have special linings to stop nay RF getting to the inside of the wallet containing your cards.A good one is typically £20. not exactly breaking te bank is it?

2)Line your purse/wallet with foil. it's a blue peter solution but it workd. Some people make fun of tin-foil hatters, but in this case they are right!

hooverboy · 31 Jan 2019

Lucan said:
I'm surprised this has not happened already (has it? IDK). technique to .

yes, happened already. Quite a lot sadly.
There are professional gangs of "skimmers" using reading devices.

hooverboy · 31 Jan 2019

jon0844 said:
The myth that people will walk alongside you and charge your card £30 is something spread by those seeking to get you to buy RFID blocking wallets.

No harm buying one if you want, but some are silly money and are sold by spreading fear.

And as for wireless key fobs being scanned, I don't think that is what happens. Rather someone is boosting the signal so a key in your hallway is now able to unlock the car on your driveway. Once started the key is no longer needed, but later on it will be immobilised. I assume the car is either hacked to start when time isn't an issue, or the car is broken down for parts.

it's no myth mate,

ooo · 31 Jan 2019

Do you have any examples of this in the news?

hooverboy said:
yes, happened already. Quite a lot sadly.
There are professional gangs of "skimmers" using reading devices.

hooverboy said:
it's no myth mate,

Groningen · 31 Jan 2019

Let people still leave the choice by paying cash or card. American company profits for every cardtransaction. In the Netherlands you can pay every day 3 times under 25 euro without using the pincode. There is a skimming possibility when someone stands close to you and is possible to read your card/chip with some kind of device.

Aictos · 31 Jan 2019

You guys are forgetting one important reason here which I shall now explain bearing in mind this was explained to me by my provider:

Contactless payments take up to 3 to 5 days for the money to be deducted from the user's account.

Chip and Pin payments however has the money deducted immediately from the user's account.

Yes Contactless can be useful but there are reasons why some people don't use it and prefer the Chip and Pin method instead as I have explained above.

MisterT · 31 Jan 2019

hooverboy said:
it's no myth mate,

Actually, it is.
A card reader has to be authorised by the bank before anyone is able to use it.
This means that one has to start a company, open a bank account, buy a contactless reader, link it to the bank account, and then have to touch everyone's, err, behind in order to get a few quid. Then, after a few transactions, the reader is blocked, the bank account frozen, and one can say goodbye to a planned vacation on a sunny beach

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2019

Class 403 said:
You guys are forgetting one important reason here which I shall now explain bearing in mind this was explained to me by my provider:

Your provider told you that? It's totally false.

Contactless payments take up to 3 to 5 days for the money to be deducted from the user's account.

Chip and Pin payments however has the money deducted immediately from the user's account.

Completely incorrect. For both methods of payment, there are two steps - an authorisation, then the actual debit which occurs a few days later. How banks handle the authorisation varies - for instance, Monzo takes it off your visible balance so you can see you've spent it, but won't charge you an overdraft fee for it until it actually settles, whereas most credit cards show it separately and don't add it to your balance at all (but still won't let you spend it). Traditional banks will show you two balance figures, at least when doing an inquiry at a cashpoint - current balance and available balance - it's deducted from the latter (which is the maximum amount you have to withdraw including any arrange overdraft) but not the former (which is what's actually in your account now).

The key difference between the two is that except in transit mode (i.e. how TfL uses it) an authorisation is mandatory for contactless but optional (at retailer risk) for C&P. This can mean that the situation for some C&P transactions is precisely the reverse of what you were told!

When contactless first came out it mostly did not do authorisations whereas C&P did, which might have given rise to this misinformation. However this also meant it was impossible for the bank or retailer to actually prevent transactions on a blocked card. This being the case, authorisation was added to save them repaying a huge number of fraudulent transactions, so once the card is blocked, short of the odd Tube fare you can't use it again.

whhistle · 31 Jan 2019

eastwestdivide said:
Privacy?
Some people might prefer the privacy of cash. i.e. the bank doesn't have a record of everything you buy.

Trust?
Some people might not trust the system to take the right amount, or might think there's nefarious additional machines that can detect the contactless card from a distance.

Good points.
Although the "trust" thing is a bit moot as if "the system" was going to take the wrong amount, it would be widly reported. But most retail systems don't work like that anyway. The system can say £200 instead of £20 and most people would still put their pin in :P
I don't think I've looked at the amount in years, because I trust the system is charging me the correct amount. To be honest, Asda could have been adding 5p every time and I wouldn't ever know - if they did that with 60% of card transactions... but that's against the law.

bnm said:
I'm at a loss as to why this is such an issue for the OP.

It's not a big issue?
I am purely interested why people do certain things, or act in a certain way.
Ya know... to help me understand someone elses view of the world.

I think @Bletchleyite said it a year ago that people tend to choose the path of less risk to ensure they survive. In todays world, this translates to people making things easier for themselves... the path of less resistance. Yet it seems with this example (of contactless payments), some people choose to have what others would see as more hassle/work but I'm at a loss as to why. It's like someone intentionally making things difficult for themselves and I don't understand why.

Not sure why you're against people learning and trying to understand others?

BanburyBlue · 31 Jan 2019

I do use contactless, but my main issue is receipts. I'm still one of those people who keep a cashbook at home and like to get the receipt from the shop. I know you can get receipts from contactless, but a surprising number of people in shops don't know which buttons to press to print one.

In terms of Oyster, we have Oyster cards. My wife felt very nervous about fishing in her handbag near the barriers to dig out her contactless card.

whhistle · 31 Jan 2019

joncombe said:
I do use contactless, but one thing that has bothered me is if someone can get hold of one of the readers. Imaging setting it to the maximum amount permitted by contactless in a crowded tube cariage and just moving it near peoples pockets to debit money from their account. They haven't lost the card so they likely won't realise until the bill comes (unless they check the balance regularly).

Ah ha!
But why isn't this happening already?
Readers can be bought online, cheaply. A fish and chip shop near me has one of the Square card readers. But it seems criminals simply haven't adopted this in a widespread sort of way. And it's this that makes me judge the value of contactless. The risk of skimming is so low that it's not worth the extra effort I make to enter a pin number.

Funny you should say about fraud.
The amount of people I see who have theor pin numbers written down in their wallet, or on their phones is amazing. It's almost like people don't know you can change the number, or can't remember. Or more likely can't be bothered to remember, yet they can be bothered with the hassle of having to look it up each time they need to make a payment.
That I completely don't understand!

Lucan said:
I'm surprised this has not happened already (has it? IDK). Crooks have been stealing cars with contactless ignition fobs by hanging around the driver after he has parked.

An excellent point.

I can't recall the last time I saw someone physically put their key in a car door.
Even with all the recent news items about people having their cars stolen without the keys, nobody seems to care or ask for a key without remote technology.

Perhaps those people have weighed up the risk of someone being able to steal their car against the value of not having to faff putting it in the lock and decided the latter is worth the risk. So why is a £5000 - £50,000 item worth the risk, but not (potentially) £300 from a debit card. Is it because the latter is pure cash, so people put more value on it than a car (despite spending thousands of pounds on it!)?

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2019

BanburyBlue said:
In terms of Oyster, we have Oyster cards. My wife felt very nervous about fishing in her handbag near the barriers to dig out her contactless card.

That is a bit of a male/female split. Near enough any bloke will have it in their pocket in some form. It is strange, though, that now most women wear basically the same clothes as men (and so mostly have pockets) that they still keep an unnecessarily large purse, phone and keys in a bag which is much more vulnerable to being stolen or "dipped" than in a pocket. Force of habit I guess, but a habit that makes them much more vulnerable to crime in a busy city than men with everything in their pockets.

jon0844 · 31 Jan 2019

It has already been explained how pointless it would be to scan cards with a reader on the tube or anywhere else.

And when it comes to car theft, there seems to be some confusion about the types of key. You have remote fobs that open a door with a press of a button, and now keys that allow the starting of a vehicle by merely being close by.

People can't easily duplicate a fob so they still break in for the keys to get in and drive it away. Some people used jammers to block the signal so when you think you've locked the car/van you haven't. You can then get in and steal from the car but not actually take the car.

Signal boosters allow the wireless keys to unlock a car AND ignition system from further away. That can be made more secure by requiring the use of a button to unlock the door. I do that on mine so there's no hands free door opening system.

The car industry does seem to want to play down its problems, much the same as banks do when it comes to fraud and theft. However, contactless cards are not unsafe and the benefits over cash are huge. Use your phone to pay and I'd argue there is nothing better.

whhistle · 31 Jan 2019

hooverboy said:
all devices like this (nfc-Near Field Communication) are vulnerable to being "picked up" by criminal types with specialised scanners.

Read the thread :P
A few people have said similar but it simply doesn't really happen.
Can you point to any news articles where this has been reported say, 20 times last year? Because 20 times over the course of a year isn't very much. I bet more people are involved in car accidents across the UK than having their card skimmed.

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2019

jon0844 said:
The car industry does seem to want to play down its problems, much the same as banks do when it comes to fraud and theft.

Though the problem is smaller than it was, specifically with immobilisers now built into most modern cars' ECUs and thus not bypassable. Most cars are now nicked to order by nicking the keys or craning it onto a trailer. Casual car theft (find an Escort XR3i or Astra SRi, brick through the window, hot wire it, go for a joy ride and torch it) has basically ceased completely. That I would say is a very big success. Even car radio theft has near enough gone simply because every car has a perfectly adequate one supplied with it so there is no point in nicking it unless it's something very premium. I don't even bother taking the front off mine any more.

However, contactless cards are not unsafe and the benefits over cash are huge. Use your phone to pay and I'd argue there is nothing better.

I would say contactless via a phone is much more secure than C&P, as even if you use a PIN to do the unlock you never enter it into a device that isn't yours. An implementation of Apple/Android Pay on cashpoints would probably seriously reduce skimming.

And on a railway point...this makes it very annoying that some/all TVMs won't allow Apple/Android Pay over £30 (the contactless pad is not activated if the transaction is over £30) despite the fact that almost every retailer using a conventional PDQ terminal will.

whhistle · 31 Jan 2019

jon0844 said:
Signal boosters allow the wireless keys to unlock a car AND ignition system from further away. That can be made more secure by requiring the use of a button to unlock the door. I do that on mine so there's no hands free door opening system.

Maybe people don't know they can do this.
It's surprising the amount of people who don't bother to read how to do things, then try and blame someone else when they get it wrong.

For example, I have read every car manual I've ever had.
Obviously skipping things I don't really need to know, but stuff like the radio unit or setting up this or that, rather than guess or just get it wrong...

Told a family member a while back that the window wipers aren't based on "wipe X times a minute" but rather how sensitive the sensor is at detecting rain. Just like they were interested to know they can change the indicator so it only flashes once instead of the usual 3 times.

But then ~~I'm boring~~ I like to know exactly how to operate my fridge/TV/washing machine/car so that it benefits me more than someone who hasn't bothered to read how to use the device to the best of it's ability.

krus_aragon · 31 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That is a bit of a male/female split. Near enough any bloke will have it in their pocket in some form. It is strange, though, that now most women wear basically the same clothes as men (and so mostly have pockets) that they still keep an unnecessarily large purse, phone and keys in a bag which is much more vulnerable to being stolen or "dipped" than in a pocket. Force of habit I guess, but a habit that makes them much more vulnerable to crime in a busy city than men with everything in their pockets.

My wife keeps far more stuff in her "brick" than she could ever hope to fit in pockets!

Bletchleyite · 31 Jan 2019

krus_aragon said:
My wife keeps far more stuff in her "brick" than she could ever hope to fit in pockets!

I'm sure she could keep other stuff in there, just like I'm mostly not seen walking around without a small rucksack on. But it makes a lot more sense to carry cash and cards in something that fits your pocket.

krus_aragon · 31 Jan 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I'm sure she could keep other stuff in there

Nah, she keeps putting stuff in until there's no room for more. A few years I teamed up with her mother to talk her into buying a smaller handbag, to force her to carry less stuff on her shoulder.

But there's a lot to be said for habit and familiarity. I'm a wallet carrier, and have always carried my wallet in the front left pocket; I couldn't imagine walking/sitting comfortably with a wallet or phone in my rear pockets. (And that's quite aside from the fact that pickpocketing a front trouser pocket seems significantly harder than a rear pocket.)

People Opposed to Contacless Payments - Why?

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