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State of the Chat Moss line
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If you're heading
in the Manchester direction, it's not a fast line — down to 60 at Astley, and then never above 75.
a_c_skinner
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Is this line still running on Stephenson's work? This was wood and rubble we are told and won't the timber rot?
furnessvale
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Not necessarily. If the air can't get to it. Isn't there something called "bog oak". Trees that have been in bogs for generations?
a_c_skinner
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I was thinking that as I typed it. I think I was asking if the foundations were in good order and expected to remain so.
swt_passenger
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I don’t think they are anything special. Just the bog standard type.
driver9000
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Yes it is a choppy road to travel on and does still ride on the original foundations on the moss itself between Astley and Patricroft. West of Astley crossing the speed rises to 90mph.
Bletchleyite
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Which, I believe, essentially involved "tipping a load of wood into the moss until it stopped sinking".
craigybagel
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Before it was electrified it was 75mph max, and IIRC the 60mph section at Astley was a lot longer then it is now.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Have they? There's a distinct kink in the route just west of Patricroft platforms where the former 4-track route through the station got itself back to the straight alignment.
Must check for the "lurch" next time (although 185s do plenty of their own lurching even on good track!).
There used to be a similar lurch just after the Weaver bridge/viaduct on the Crewe-Chester line going west, but I wasn't aware the rest of it was in a lumpy state.
There's a bump on the Warrington-Chester line over the river Gowy after Dunham Hill (or is it a dip before/after the river bridge).
Noticeable even at 75mph.
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Yes, there’s still a slight lurch leaving Patricroft but it’s much better than it was 2 years ago, I don’t slow down for it now where as I used to scrub off 5-7 mph for it.
Chester Crewe has got very poor after the very dry summer. There’s two that are quite bad in particular, both on the down. One at Venetian Marina and one at the 2nd W board at Calverly. It’s lumpy most of the way. Feels better in a 158 so maybe it’s just the weight or overhang of a 175? Not sure. Chester Warrington isn’t too bad, a couple of underbridges upset the natural rhythm of the train but nothing too bad.
Midnight Sun
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Bog Oak essentially being the very early stages of fossilization. This process, turns the wood from golden-brown to completely black, while increasing its hardness as its ages.
So are t
So are the two south-side lines still in use actually the two additional lines of the mid-1880s widening, re-joining the original alignment at Patricroft with a kink even though the southern pair were the fasts?
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I think that's the case.
I imagine when the line was quadrupled through the old station, the southern tracks were built slightly south of the straight for some structural reason.
What's left today is the slight southward curve with a kink at each end, even though it doesn't look difficult to make the platforms dead straight.
It's clearly OK for the current 75mph PSR, despite the wobble, but if the line speed were to be raised to, say, 90mph, I suspect NR would have to eliminate the kink.
WatcherZero
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Yes the foundations for the line are still a floating wooden raft, they had to take extra care that they wernt puncturing the raft when they drilled the OHLE supports. There are also a few places on the line where most trains go through stations/points at speed which can be rough.
Ploughman
Established Member
Is the condition of the track due to the lack of rainfall over the year.
Is the "Bog" drying out?
Is the "Bog" drying out?
Trains on this line had to proceed with caution over a short stretch towards Liverpool yesterday evening.
It is quite incredible that this Georgian infrastructure is still functional at all, but more so that the government still have no plans to replace it, despite building a high speed line nearby. (Hollow words lacking any credibility about a fantasy future "NPR", not even promised let alone planned, notwithstanding).
Rather like the wall incident at Lime Street station, and the rotted gantries at Lime Street tunnels, there seems to be a pattern emerging as to infrastructure investment for the area: do less that the bare minimum until the risk of catastrophe is undeniable.
I hope the chat moss line doesn't prove to be in that category.
It is quite incredible that this Georgian infrastructure is still functional at all, but more so that the government still have no plans to replace it, despite building a high speed line nearby. (Hollow words lacking any credibility about a fantasy future "NPR", not even promised let alone planned, notwithstanding).
Rather like the wall incident at Lime Street station, and the rotted gantries at Lime Street tunnels, there seems to be a pattern emerging as to infrastructure investment for the area: do less that the bare minimum until the risk of catastrophe is undeniable.
I hope the chat moss line doesn't prove to be in that category.
There was some alterations, taking out a lot of trees some years ago, as it was changing the character of the land itself. It could be having some long term effects on the railway as a result, but as ride quality goes, it's a bit up and down, but very similar to Sandbach - Crewe.
As an aside, Crewe-Chester is also better than it used to be. Used to be some awful kicks going over the viaduct at the point where it drops back to 70 on the up which have now largely gone.
My first time over the chat moss for about 4 months yesterday, I have to say, it’s got a hell of a lot worse. It’s not a comfortable ride at all. This was between patricroft and astley. Very noticeable now.
As for the Chester Crewe line, that has been improved quite considerably. 2 months ago in the down direction I would slow over a couple of places as it was just too rough.
As for the Chester Crewe line, that has been improved quite considerably. 2 months ago in the down direction I would slow over a couple of places as it was just too rough.
TheGrew
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I commute on it daily and I find the stock has quite a big effect on how bumpy the ride is. I tend to find the heavier DMUs (175+185) give a smoother ride than the Class 319s I suspect the latter is considerably lighter which may have some effect.
I also wondered if the colder weather of late may have had an effect on the ride.
I also wondered if the colder weather of late may have had an effect on the ride.
yoyothehobo
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We built a railway on the moss. That sank. We built another. That sank too. We built a third, that caught fire, fell over and then sank into the moss. But the forth railway we built..."
The question is whether the quality of the ride is, as I originally wondered, indicative of the structural state. A number of people originally replied sounding quite blasé, as if to suggest a disconnect between ride and track condition, but a train processing at caution at 5mph over a section would in my opinion suggest that dismissal or portrayal as trivial may not have been right.
It will be interesting to see if there are engineering works in the coming days/nights.
The ride can be totally atrocious and still have line speed over it.
The worst I work over is an alignment fault on the up line at Brooke Road level crossing in Oakham. The kick you get is enough to tip drinks over and I've been thrown out of the seat in the cab before. It's not noticeable on the usual stopping trains but diverted services pass over at 90 mph.
I report it every time and the response every time is that it's within spec. I don't care what the spec says - any bump in the track enough to tip a drink over or throw you out of your seat - particularly in a class 158 which are about the best riding trains on the network - is a problem.
The same applies elsewhere where emergency speed restrictions are put on and taken off with tedious regularity in the same places.
ForTheLoveOf
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The Chat Moss line certainly isn't the only one I've experienced with serious problems with bumps. Yet it seems that some lines are better than others. The WCML is generally OK, but I have a feeling that the slow lines are worse than the fast. ECML can be very bad.
As a matter of interest, if a driver reports a section of bad track will Network Rail actually try to recreate the issue or just come out, check for damage, misaligned track etc then say it's all OK. If the same thing has been reported a few times then a cab ride might show up something that may otherwise be missed or reassure the actual driver that it is within tolerances.
A 5mph emergency restriction sounds more like a broken rail than an issue with the formation. Has it been lifted?
davyp
Member
Doesn't the "Flying Banana" and other Network Rail test trains regularly check these sort of things? Perhaps beyond the financial resources of NR to do much about it without further major disruption to already out-of-kilter services.
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