Network card. 9:58 train late, not allowed to board

Jamiescott1 · 22 Feb 2019

Basically my other half was travelling from high Wycombe using her network card (only valid on trains departing high Wycombe after 10am).
She planned on getting the 1007 train to Marylebone but as the 0958 was running late and now scheduled to depart at 1001, she was going to get that instead.
However, the person at the gateline wouldn't let her through until 1000, telling her She can't get the 1001 and will have to get the 1007.
Was the gateline person correct as the train was now due to depart after 10am?

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ForTheLoveOf · 22 Feb 2019

Jamiescott1 said:
Basically my other half was travelling from high Wycombe using her network card (only valid on trains departing high Wycombe after 10am).
She planned on getting the 1007 train to Marylebone but as the 0958 was running late and now scheduled to depart at 1001, she was going to get that instead.
However, the person at the gateline wouldn't let her through until 1000, telling her She can't get the 1001 and will have to get the 1007.
Was the gateline person correct as the train was now due to depart after 10am?

Some tickets and discounts are only valid on trains scheduled to depart after a certain time, whereas others' validity is based on the actual departure time. It seems that the Network Railcard is one of the former - the terms refer to the discount not being available for "travel before 10.00hrs". So quite clearly, if you only begin your journey at 10:01 then you are quite legitimately able to use the Railcard discounted ticket on any train, even if it was scheduled to depart before 10:00.

I would put in a complaint to Chiltern Railways, asking them to review their staff training to ensure that all staff are aware of the correct validity of Network Railcard discounted tickets, and asking them what compensation they propose for their breach of contract (noting, of course, that only a minor delay would have been caused).

If the response is unsatisfactory, I'd escalate the matter further such as to take it to the Rail Ombudsman. But hopefully they will agree that they were in the wrong, and provide an acceptable modicum of compensation.

WelshBluebird · 22 Feb 2019

Also the idea of not allowing someone through the gateline until after 10am is insane. What would they do if there was actually an 10.01 train - force you to miss it?
This feels somewhat similar to the TVM's that won't sell certain tickets until they are valid, meaning you physically are unable to catch trains that are timetabled just after that time!

causton · 22 Feb 2019

As above, I would contact Chiltern to ask them to ensure their staff are properly briefed on the validity of the Network railcard, but for a four minute delay I doubt anything would be paid out whatsoever.

WelshBluebird said:
Also the idea of not allowing someone through the gateline until after 10am is insane. What would they do if there was actually an 10.01 train - force you to miss it?
This feels somewhat similar to the TVM's that won't sell certain tickets until they are valid, meaning you physically are unable to catch trains that are timetabled just after that time!

It is not about what time the valid train is, it is about what time the invalid trains are. For example an Off-Peak ticket from WFJ to MKC is valid from 0903, but as soon as the 0843 last "Peak Train" departs you would have no problem going through. Of course if there is an invalid train at 0958 and a valid one at 1001 I don't know what the gateline staff would do! And all of this is subject to everyone's individual interpretation so YMMV.

Paul Kelly · 22 Feb 2019

The gateline attendant probably got confused by the fact that the Network Railcard 10:00 restriction applies to the actual departure time, so it's fine to use on an earlier delayed train, whereas most time restrictions applying to tickets themselves apply to the scheduled departure (or arrival) time.

extendedpaul · 22 Feb 2019

I agree it can be difficult for gateline staff to get this right.

From my local station there is a 52 minutes past the hour train to Victoria.

If the 08.52 is 10 minutes late, off peak return ticket holders cannot catch it because the scheduled arrival time at Victoria is before 10am.

However if the 09.52 is 10 minutes late a network card holder can catch it because it is departing after 10am.

JP · 22 Feb 2019

WelshBluebird said:
Also the idea of not allowing someone through the gateline until after 10am is insane. What would they do if there was actually an 10.01 train - force you to miss it?
This feels somewhat similar to the TVM's that won't sell certain tickets until they are valid, meaning you physically are unable to catch trains that are timetabled just after that time!

There’s even a sign about this at Potters Bar. They won’t let you through with an off peak ticket before 9.35am, even though an off peak ticket is valid to Finsbury Park on a train leaving before then.

MichaelAMW · 22 Feb 2019

JP said:
There’s even a sign about this at Potters Bar. They won’t let you through with an off peak ticket before 9.35am, even though an off peak ticket is valid to Finsbury Park on a train leaving before then.

What would they do if you had an Off-Peak return to, say, Exeter? That's valid from Paddington at 0903. Or to Edinburgh via London, which is valid on the 0800 from Kings Cross. Your example is an Off-Peak DAY return so maybe that could be your loophole?!!

jon0844 · 22 Feb 2019

Potters Bar has a history of issues with off peak tickets.

I hope they've realised there's now an off peak ticket valid to Finsbury Park on a train arriving before 1000 too? It's priced by GTR!

Details of this are on signs at Welwyn Garden City.

bb21 · 22 Feb 2019

jon0844 said:
Potters Bar has a history of issues with off peak tickets.

I hope they've realised there's now an off peak ticket valid to Finsbury Park on a train arriving before 1000 too? It's priced by GTR!

Details of this are on signs at Welwyn Garden City.

That is very silly.

Perhaps someone should get in touch and point this out to them.

There are various ways this can be followed up if the situation is not rectified.

Bletchleyite · 22 Feb 2019

It wouldn't be the first time a TOC put up a sign that was in breach of their obligations. A while ago (might even be as far back as Silverlink days), a sign appeared at MKC stating that "at Virgin's request no split tickets would be sold" at the ticket office. The sign did not last very long.

It was odd that it was at MKC, in any case, as the split ticket VT didn't want sold was an Anytime ticket to MKC followed by an MKC-<wherever> ticket to get round the evening peak restrictions.

PeterY · 22 Feb 2019

causton said:
It is not about what time the valid train is, it is about what time the invalid trains are. For example an Off-Peak ticket from WFJ to MKC is valid from 0903, but as soon as the 0843 last "Peak Train" departs you would have no problem going through. Of course if there is an invalid train at 0958 and a valid one at 1001 I don't know what the gateline staff would do! And all of this is subject to everyone's individual interpretation so YMMV.

It never seizes to amaze what is a peak and off peak train. The 08.43 from Watford to Milton Keynes is peak but by the time the same train arrives at Hemel Hempstead at 08.51 it is off peak.

I saw an incident at Hemel Hempstead with the gate line staff and a customer back in January. Last peak train was running late and the first off peak train is at 09.35 The customer wasn't allowed onto the platform until the peak train had left (about 09.30). Upstairs on the platform is a coffee shop, so LNWR and their gateline staff, were denying a passenger the right of using the coffee shop. Which no doubt they pay high rents for.

ForTheLoveOf · 22 Feb 2019

JP said:
There’s even a sign about this at Potters Bar. They won’t let you through with an off peak ticket before 9.35am, even though an off peak ticket is valid to Finsbury Park on a train leaving before then.

Haha, and what about people with tickets to destinations outside the Network Area - which are therefore totally unrestricted for use between

PeterY said:
It never seizes to amaze what is a peak and off peak train. The 08.43 from Watford to Milton Keynes is peak but by the time the same train arrives at Hemel Hempstead at 08.51 it is off peak.

I saw an incident at Hemel Hempstead with the gate line staff and a customer back in January. Last peak train was running late and the first off peak train is at 09.35 The customer wasn't allowed onto the platform until the peak train had left (about 09.30). Upstairs on the platform is a coffee shop, so LNWR and their gateline staff, were denying a passenger the right of using the coffee shop. Which no doubt they pay high rents for.

The thing is, a particular train isn't peak or off peak. It's purely down to what the ticket restrictions allow you to do. Some Off-Peak tickets have no restrictions whatsoever!

As for the restrictions on tickets going northwards, they are progressively less and less restrictive, with Watford to Milton Keynes for example being "any time from 08:45", and Hemel Hempstead to Milton Keynes being "any time from 08:30". It's not unjustifiable in my view, as I certainly know of some people who did contra-peak commuting (northwards) from Watford Junction.

CarltonA · 22 Feb 2019

WelshBluebird said:
Also the idea of not allowing someone through the gateline until after 10am is insane. What would they do if there was actually an 10.01 train - force you to miss it?
This feels somewhat similar to the TVM's that won't sell certain tickets until they are valid, meaning you physically are unable to catch trains that are timetabled just after that time!

I recently complained to Chiltern about their latest machines refusing to vend NSE discounted tickets until exactly 10.00am. There is a 10.05 departure to Banbury which I often use. The clerks of course will sell a ticket before 10 but there is only one window in use at present due to refurbishment of the ticket office. The old (Schere) machines would issue from 09:55. They have replied saying that they are trialling some new programme in the machines which will "improve availability of some tickets". So perhaps the situation will be improved.

jon0844 · 22 Feb 2019

Some TVMs now have yellow text saying some tickets won't be sold until the last 'peak' train has departed, so maybe that's the improvement? Not really that useful if the first 'off-peak' train is 1 or 2 minutes later.

As ever, the best solution is to buy on an app and then collect the ticket at any convenient time.

embers25 · 22 Feb 2019

Woking refuse to let you through until all trains scheduled to leave before 1000 have gone. They also rarely open them early enough to catch the 1000 trains. It's bloody annoying.

ForTheLoveOf · 22 Feb 2019

embers25 said:
Woking refuse to let you through until all trains scheduled to leave before 1000 have gone. They also rarely open them early enough to catch the 1000 trains. It's bloody annoying.

It's more than annoying, it's tortious. But on the scale of all the problems the rail industry has WRT staff and training them correctly, this is probably quite far down the list. That's a true indictment, I think!

Failed Unit · 22 Feb 2019

jon0844 said:
Some TVMs now have yellow text saying some tickets won't be sold until the last 'peak' train has departed, so maybe that's the improvement? Not really that useful if the first 'off-peak' train is 1 or 2 minutes later.

As ever, the best solution is to buy on an app and then collect the ticket at any convenient time.

Which is still the case at WGC and Hatfield. The 0922 to KX is peak. 0924 to Moorgate off peak.

I doubt you would be able to purchase via the TVM on the day and get the 0924 off peak.

mmh · 22 Feb 2019

@ForTheLoveOf of beat me to it. There's no such thing as a peak or off-peak train, only peak or off-peak journeys. Unfortunately it seems the TOCs are perfectly happy for that misconception to prevail.

In my experience, London Overground are particularly bad at this, with the caveat that staff who were there before they pretended they're not part of NR usually understand.

bb21 · 23 Feb 2019

ForTheLoveOf said:
It's more than annoying, it's tortious. But on the scale of all the problems the rail industry has WRT staff and training them correctly, this is probably quite far down the list. That's a true indictment, I think!

I don't understand why this is far down the list. Of all the fares issues (which I assume is what you are largely talking about) this is one of the simplest concepts and should be one of the easiest to fix.

The bottom line is quite simple: the customer should not be penalised and miss a valid service. So what if he manages to get himself the one 4 minutes earlier because he was allowed through the gateline at 0955 and had quick feet? If he gets caught he will be excessed, and if not what great loss has there been?

Not acceptable behaviour at all if true and no excuses not fixing it.

ForTheLoveOf · 23 Feb 2019

bb21 said:
I don't understand why this is far down the list. Of all the fares issues (which I assume is what you are largely talking about) this is one of the simplest concepts and should be one of the easiest to fix.

The bottom line is quite simple: the customer should not be penalised and miss a valid service. So what if he manages to get himself the one 4 minutes earlier because he was allowed through the gateline at 0955 and had quick feet? If he gets caught he will be excessed, and if not what great loss has there been?

Not acceptable behaviour at all if true and no excuses not fixing it.

I agree that it's easy to fix, but I would prioritise those issues which have a substantial impact on customers - e.g. staff incorrectly refusing to sell tickets at all (i.e. not just not before a certain time), staff refusing to arrange onward transport when last trains of the day are missed through no fault of the customer, and so on.

bb21 · 23 Feb 2019

There does not always have to be a pecking order when you put in place improvement actions. Several things can be done at the same time. These issues don't always occur simultaneously at the same location, nor necessarily with the same people even if they do happen at the same location.

In any case this is a "quick win" so I cannot see any reason it would need to wait behind the two examples you gave, when in all likelihood these are dealt with by different teams at a station, and I am pretty certain Woking do not have a problem arranging taxis for customers in the scenarios you gave.

Improving customer service is also not about a pecking order, it is about identifying a problem and putting in place measures to resolve this problem. "Quick wins" will get priority because they bring about customer benefits quickly as the name suggests.

yorkie · 23 Feb 2019

Jamiescott1 said:
Basically my other half was travelling from high Wycombe using her network card (only valid on trains departing high Wycombe after 10am).
She planned on getting the 1007 train to Marylebone but as the 0958 was running late and now scheduled to depart at 1001, she was going to get that instead.
However, the person at the gateline wouldn't let her through until 1000, telling her She can't get the 1001 and will have to get the 1007.
Was the gateline person correct as the train was now due to depart after 10am?

Please do write to Chiltern about this as the staff were incorrect. I'd be interested to hear what they say.

PeterY said:
It never seizes to amaze what is a peak and off peak train. The 08.43 from Watford to Milton Keynes is peak but by the time the same train arrives at Hemel Hempstead at 08.51 it is off peak.

There is no such thing as an "off peak train"; Off Peak tickets have conditions attached to them, as do (most) Railcards.

For example you could travel from any of those stations to Peterborough, and all of those trains would be valid on a Super Off Peak ticket.

philthetube · 23 Feb 2019

embers25 said:
Woking refuse to let you through until all trains scheduled to leave before 1000 have gone. They also rarely open them early enough to catch the 1000 trains. It's bloody annoying.

Delay repay, providing where you are heading has an infrequent enough service.

Network card. 9:58 train late, not allowed to board

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