Penalty Fare when machine not working

I am currently on the second stage of an appeals process with Penalty Fares. The circumstances given rise to this are the following:

I arrived at the train station on the opposite side of the ticket booth and attempted to use the ticket machine to purchase my return ticket. The machine was out of service and read ‘out of service please purchase a ticket at the earliest opportunity’ at this point my train was announced over the tannoy as arriving. Therefore my earliest opportunity was on board the train from the conductor or at my destination station. I proceeded up the stairs and reached the top as the train arrived. I boarded the train and within a couple of minutes I was asked for my ticket. I requested a ticket but was told I would be fined. I showed them a photo of the out of service machine and was told that as the ticket office was open I would be fined but could appeal. They were very sympathetic to be fair. I appealed my fine and this has been rejected on the basis of the ticket office being open. I don’t dispute this fact, however my issue is with the ambiguity of the wording on the out of service machine, as I believe it was reasonable for me to assume that my earliest opportunity was onboard the train or at my destination due to the imminent arrival of the train. I have re-appealed and request they take this into consideration. The fine is only £20 and to be honest as fines go this is pretty reasonable. However this is a matter of principle, has anyone had a similar situation and had their penalty fare upturned.

I think you'd be best placed paying the penalty fare to be completely honest. You had an opportunity to buy, albeit not your preferred one, at the station. I think if you continue to fight it then you're going to end up paying a lot more than £20. Apologies if that's not the advice you wanted to receive, but I really don't think this is one to contest. Out of interest, where were you travelling from / to?

Harlequin said:

I think you'd be best placed paying the penalty fare to be completely honest. You had an opportunity to buy, albeit not your preferred one, at the station. I think if you continue to fight it then you're going to end up paying a lot more than £20. Apologies if that's not the advice you wanted to receive, but I really don't think this is one to contest. Out of interest, where were you travelling from / to?

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No, this will not end up costing anything more than £20, because the train company haven't cancelled the Penalty Fare before the appeals body made their first level decision. This means they are statute barred from conducting any kind of prosecution.

This means that the train company can do nothing beyond taking the OP to County Court (which is unheard of in modern times), if they haven't yet paid the Penalty Fare and don't do so, or if they conduct a card chargeback. Note - I don't endorse doing either of those - it's always best to comply with the procedure - but, for once, the train company has limited powers.

To the OP - the best grounds of appeal in a case like this may be a lack of signage complying with The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 - see this thread. As far as I'm aware (and I've travelled across every franchised operator) the only TOC that has Regulations-compliant signage is SWR, and even there only some of their signage is compliant. Therefore, if you wish to appeal on such a basis, the train company involved will make a difference.

There are three, independent, stages of appeal in total - the first two are purely about determining whether the Penalty Fare was issued in compliance with the Regulations. The third stage also takes into consideration whether, in view of the circumstances as a whole, it is appropriate for a Penalty Fare to have been issued. This being the case, you might succeed with the same argument at the third stage, even where you don't at the first two stages.

It'd definitely be useful to have some details of the journey in question, so that we can be confirm which grounds of appeal are likely to be the most appropriate.

Now, of course, having read all that you might decide that it's easiest to simply pay the Penalty Fare (or drop the matter if it's already paid), and of course that's not a decision anyone else can make for you. But, personally, I would always appeal an incorrectly issued Penalty Fare (as this one may or may not be, depending on the details you provide), as sometimes train companies will instigate criminal proceedings in future cases of ticketing irregularities to someone with a history of having been issued with Penalty Fares, whereas they may drop the matter or agree to an informal settlement otherwise.

A final note about terminology - a Penalty Fare isn't a fine, it is a civil charge made under the Regulations. This might sound like it's a negligible difference, but non-payment of a Court-imposed fine, for instance, could lead to far more severe sanctions than non-payment of a Penalty Fare (in your circumstances), and therefore it's important not to confuse the two!

Harlequin said:

You had an opportunity to buy, albeit not your preferred one, at the station.

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The golden rule seams to be pay (to avoid escalation) then appeal (presumably the OP has already paid it). But while you are correct that there was an opportunity to pay, was it reasonable that Tracey should have missed her train because of a failure of the railway which was not of her making?
As I read it, the OP got to the station in time to purchase her ticket and would have done so were the TVM not out of order. Are TOC's now expecting passengers (customers) to arrive even earlier on the off chance that their systems might be down and they will be required to traipse over the platform to regularise their travel?

This penalty fare seems completely unfair.

When you boarded the train and was asked for your ticket, it was most likely a Revenue Protection Inspector and not a Conductor who issued you a 'Penalty Fare Notice'.

Can you tell us what form was given to you in this respect?

As the TVM was out of use and this was confirmed with an image from your smartphone, this occurrence usually crops up when ticket checking by RPI's so they don't not give benefit of doubt but issue a Penalty Fare.

As other posters on here suggest pay the PENALTY FARE and appeal with a digital copy of the image as it will hold meta data confirming date, time & locality of occurance.

Appeal on the grounds that efforts were made to purchase ticket with proof of image, that's all I can suggest other than 'buy before you board' in future.

Good luck

Harlequin said:

You had an opportunity to buy, albeit not your preferred one, at the station.

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Technically, yes. However I would say the OP has a strong case that the message displayed on the screen constituted permission to board without a ticket, since they weren't instructed to purchase at the ticket office.

If the manned ticket office was closed then the fine would probably be dropped. As it was open, the ticket machine problem is irrelevant.

I personally don't like the unmanned ticket machines and always advise passengers to avoid them. They break down too easily and you can't actually purchase all tickets and travelcards that are available. We need to keep as many stations manned as possible in my opinion. The proliferation of ticket machines at unmanned stations do the complete opposite.

Thank you for your responses I can confirm this was a revenue protection inspector who provided me with the Penalty Fare Notice.

The penalty fare notice was issued under 00 no ticket. I was travelling from Northfield station to Redditch destination.

The station layout is such that I entered on the side for the train bound to Redditch. You have to walk up a flight of stairs to the underpass where there is a ticket machine present and then you need to walk up another flight of stairs to reach the platform. In this instance with the ticket machine not working you have to walk through the underpass across a distance of approx. 120 yards and then up another flight of stairs to another ticket machine or ticket office. I am not a slow walker but to complete this walk and back to my platform would take around 5 minutes assuming there was no wait at either the ticket machine or ticket office. As my train was announced even if I had ran I wouldn’t have been able to make the distance in time.

As I said I’m not trying to get out of paying the penalty fare but this is a matter of principle. I believe it was reasonable for me to board the train and buy a ticket from the ontrain guard or at my destination.

The wording on the out of service machine is my concern as stating ‘please buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity’ it is open to a reasonable interpretation that I could board the train. Had the wording stated ‘please buy your ticket from the ticket office if available’ and i boarded the train in the same instance I would accept that a penalty fare would be due.

The ticket machine is still currently out of service displaying the same message it has been 22 days since the ticket was issued. There are no signs in the vicinity of this machine giving clear instruction and it does seem confusing to passengers.

I will take this to the third stage of appeal if my second appeal is not successful and if this is then not a success I will of course pay the fine. The RPI didn’t ask me to pay immediately as he knew I was going to appeal.

I have since found out that you can buy tickets straight to your phone which is brilliant and will stop me from having these issues again in the future and is much more convenient.

Tracy P said:

Thank you for your responses I can confirm this was a revenue protection inspector who provided me with the Penalty Fare Notice.

The penalty fare notice was issued under 00 no ticket. I was travelling from Northfield station to Redditch destination.

The station layout is such that I entered on the side for the train bound to Redditch. You have to walk up a flight of stairs to the underpass where there is a ticket machine present and then you need to walk up another flight of stairs to reach the platform. In this instance with the ticket machine not working you have to walk through the underpass across a distance of approx. 120 yards and then up another flight of stairs to another ticket machine or ticket office. I am not a slow walker but to complete this walk and back to my platform would take around 5 minutes assuming there was no wait at either the ticket machine or ticket office. As my train was announced even if I had ran I wouldn’t have been able to make the distance in time.

As I said I’m not trying to get out of paying the penalty fare but this is a matter of principle. I believe it was reasonable for me to board the train and buy a ticket from the ontrain guard or at my destination.

The wording on the out of service machine is my concern as stating ‘please buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity’ it is open to a reasonable interpretation that I could board the train. Had the wording stated ‘please buy your ticket from the ticket office if available’ and i boarded the train in the same instance I would accept that a penalty fare would be due.

The ticket machine is still currently out of service displaying the same message it has been 22 days since the ticket was issued. There are no signs in the vicinity of this machine giving clear instruction and it does seem confusing to passengers.

I will take this to the third stage of appeal if my second appeal is not successful and if this is then not a success I will of course pay the fine. The RPI didn’t ask me to pay immediately as he knew I was going to appeal.

I have since found out that you can buy tickets straight to your phone which is brilliant and will stop me from having these issues again in the future and is much more convenient.

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Brilliant - thanks for confirming the details.

I know for a fact that none of West Midlands Railway's Penalty Fare signage complies with the Regulations, and therefore it is incorrect for them to be issuing any Penalty Fares at all at the moment!

I would suggest that, for the second stage appeal, you raise the issue of signage, as I detailed in the thread I previously linked to. Basically, you are explaining that the Regulations require signage with certain proscribed wording to be displayed at every Penalty Fares station's entrance to every platform. But that has not been done - signage has been displayed, but it does not contain the proscribed wording - and therefore the Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued. Let us know if you need help figuring out exactly what to write.

You could also appeal on the grounds that the message on the TVM permitted you to board without a ticket, as it would literally be quicker (hence earlier) to buy a ticket from the guard, than to walk all the way over to the ticket office. If you have permission to board without a ticket then of course no Penalty Fare may be issued. I think this is a viable point though not necessarily 100% watertight.

It'll be interesting to see what the appeals body says to this kind of an appeal. I sadly suspect that they won't properly understand the issues at the heart of the matter, but we'll see.

BTW - there are a number of downsides to having your ticket on your phone - for instance, the fact that, if your phone runs out of battery, or the app crashes, that's deemed to be your fault and you can then still be liable for a Penalty Fare or even potentially a prosecution. But in certain situations I agree that is definitely better than queuing up to use the usual ticketing facilities, especially if you are running late.

If it were me then, given that the Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued, I would not be paying it - regardless of the outcome of the second or third stage appeals. But I certainly appreciate that, given it is only a relatively small amount, most people might prefer to pay it to avoid potential (incorrect) hassling from debt collectors and the like, and so I'm not saying that you should necessarily do that!

What really is poor here is the unavailability of the TVM for an extended period of time, and yet the unclear message. Separately to any Penalty Fare appeal, I would certainly be writing to WMR to ask them to update the message on their TVM given how unbelievably poor and misleading it is.

It seems to me that the OP may be misaligned even with her own line of argument though. As she states, the ticket machine requested that she purchase a ticket at the earliest opportunity, and as far as I can see she didn't do this. Instead of approaching the guard on the platform, or finding the guard at the earliest opportunity on the train to purchase a ticket, she took her seat without taking action. It was only the later approach of the official checking tickets (albeit after 'a couple of minutes') that prompted her request to buy a ticket.

RunawayTrain said:

Instead of approaching the guard on the platform, or finding the guard at the earliest opportunity on the train to purchase a ticket, she took her seat without taking action.

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There is no specific requirement to seek out staff onboard.

najaB said:

There is no specific requirement to seek out staff onboard.

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Indeed and most passengers wouldn't even know if there were any onboard staff.

RunawayTrain said:

Instead of approaching the guard on the platform.

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Do platform guards sell tickets?! I can't say I've ever seen that...

kristiang85 said:

Do platform guards sell tickets?! I can't say I've ever seen that...

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All commercial guards can sell tickets...

221129 said:

All commercial guards can sell tickets.

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I presume that by "platform guard" @kristiang85 meant station staff performing dispatch duties.

Perhaps I am seeing things through the lens of my local train company - South Western Railway. I always thought that if boarding a train without a ticket then it was the passenger's duty to find the train's guard to sell them a ticket (either while the guard is opening/closing doors and has hopped onto the platform temporarily at the station, or onboard). I have a feeling I have read this somewhere, but can't remember. Anyway, happy to be corrected, and thanks for the knowledge.

RunawayTrain said:

I always thought that if boarding a train without a ticket then it was the passenger's duty to find the train's guard to sell them a ticket (either while the guard is opening/closing doors and has hopped onto the platform temporarily at the station, or onboard). I have a feeling I have read this somewhere, but can't remember.

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I would never approach a guard who's doing platform duties - they are doing safety critical operations and there's always the chance that someone could end up being caught and dragged because the guard was distracted. I suppose if it's a station with a long dwell then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

It's not a bad idea to seek out the guard when on board, but it definitely isn't a requirement.

It’s an interesting point about what the ‘earliest opportunity’ means and one that had occurred to me before I had read the replies. If you could buy a ticket on the train faster than you could get to the ticket office at the far side of the station then that is the earliest opportunity. However there is the uncertainty about how quickly you will see the guard.

najaB said:

I would never approach a guard who's doing platform duties - they are doing safety critical operations and there's always the chance that someone could end up being caught and dragged because the guard was distracted. I suppose if it's a station with a long dwell then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

It's not a bad idea to seek out the guard when on board, but it definitely isn't a requirement.

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I have spoken to the guard once when on the platform about a ticket. This was SWT, about 5 years ago at Petersfield on the first train of the morning to Portsmouth. The TVMs weren't working for some reason.

I simply asked can I buy a ticket once we're underway? he answered yes and I boarded the train. I then left him to do his dispatch duties and bought a ticket once we were clear of the station.

To add to talltim's point, there is also a variable regarding the ticket office - it may or may not be staffed, and there may be a queue. Regarding buying a ticket onboard, personally I don't think taking a seat and passively waiting to be approached for the opportunity to buy a ticket is in line with the spirit of 'earliest opportunity', although I can understand if legally it is OK as najaB pointed out.

RunawayTrain said:

To add to talltim's point, there is also a variable regarding the ticket office - it may or may not be staffed, and there may be a queue. Regarding buying a ticket onboard, personally I don't think taking a seat and passively waiting to be approached for the opportunity to buy a ticket is in line with the spirit of 'earliest opportunity', although I can understand if legally it is OK as najaB pointed out.

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If the passenger has any luggage at all or small children, then it most certainly is reasonable to take a seat and wait for the guard to pass into the carriage. Expecting them to leave them and go wandering up & down the train is completely unreasonable. Let alone if they're of reduced mobility.

rs101 said:

If the passenger has any luggage at all or small children, then it most certainly is reasonable to take a seat and wait for the guard to pass into the carriage. Expecting them to leave them and go wandering up & down the train is completely unreasonable. Let alone if they're of reduced mobility.

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Especially considering the continuing roll out of DOO - you may not even know if there is a guard on board! And even if they do exist they may just lock themselves in the cab, or if it is a long train you may not even know where they are! Or even if you do know where they are, in some areas I'd love to see that tried, a train full of South Wales Valley Lines passengers all trying to find the guard would be pretty hilarious to watch! The idea of having to search out the guard is so insane and I still cannot believe people still suggest it.

WelshBluebird said:

Especially considering the continuing roll out of DOO - you may not even know if there is a guard on board! And even if they do exist they may just lock themselves in the cab, or if it is a long train you may not even know where they are! Or even if you do know where they are, in some areas I'd love to see that tried, a train full of South Wales Valley Lines passengers all trying to find the guard would be pretty hilarious to watch! The idea of having to search out the guard is so insane and I still cannot believe people still suggest it.

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I suppose there are certain situations where it might be perceived as reasonable - where the passenger is able-bodied, unencumbered by luggage that they need to watch, they know the service has a guard but they also know that, for whatever reason, the guard isn't coming through. Oh, and the service can't be too busy, and the train not too long.

That narrows it down a lot, really - in fact, so much so that I think the best one can summarise it at is that "if it's convenient, you can seek out the guard, but you're under no obligation to do so".

ForTheLoveOf said:

That narrows it down a lot, really - in fact, so much so that I think the best one can summarise it at is that "if it's convenient, you can seek out the guard, but you're under no obligation to do so".

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Exactly this.

najaB said:

Exactly this.

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On the other hand it’s not an ‘at seat service’ or ‘pay on demand’

nuts & bolts said:

On the other hand it’s not an ‘at seat service’ or ‘pay on demand’

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No, I agree that the railway shouldn't be treated as "pay on demand" but if the passenger had no opportunity to pay before boarding they shouldn't be expected to go searching for a staff member on board, nor should they be expected to miss a train to pay at an intermediate station. They should pay at their earliest opportunity - which is either a staff member on board, at an intermediate station if they have sufficient time or at their destination.

nuts & bolts said:

On the other hand it’s not an ‘at seat service’ or ‘pay on demand’

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It is an at seat service if there aren't sufficient purchasing facilities at your origin. However, I would agree that, when your permission to board without a ticket has been explicitly limited to "the earliest opportunity", you would have to ensure that you seek out the guard.

ForTheLoveOf said:

It is an at seat service if there aren't sufficient purchasing facilities at your origin. However, I would agree that, when your permission to board without a ticket has been explicitly limited to "the earliest opportunity", you would have to ensure that you seek out the guard.

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Well I agree that is exactly this scenario isn't it? The debate whether it is wise, or fair, or insane is another one.

najaB said:

I would never approach a guard who's doing platform duties - they are doing safety critical operations and there's always the chance that someone could end up being caught and dragged because the guard was distracted. I suppose if it's a station with a long dwell then maybe it wouldn't be so bad.

It's not a bad idea to seek out the guard when on board, but it definitely isn't a requirement.

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No there is no requirement to go and find the guard indeed most passengers would have no idea where the guard was or even if there was one on board.

If you approach a guard doing platform duties they would normally tell you to take a seat and come and see you once the train had been despatched.

Update

I have received a response to my second appeal. They have agreed in my favour that the wording of the out of service machine was not clear and I just need to pay the £4.60 single fare. Which I have paid today.

I will also be writing directly to the train company as their signage is far below standard.

As a side note the machine as of today remains out of service this has been a minimum of 28 days.