Number of coaches on UK mainline rail tours.

Charlie Smythe · 20 Feb 2019

Does anyone know why many rail tours seem to be limited to 13 coaches. I know the number of coaches depends on the number of tickets as there's no point in running 12 if you can only fill 9. However, the Flying Scotsman trip to Devon and Cornwall in 2018 was extremely popular and sold out and still only had 12 or 13. Why didn't they just add more coaches to make more money? The most I have ever seen, at least in Devon and Cornwall is 13 coaches.

I may be missing something but surely they can go more than 13 (12 + support), or are they limited?

Does anyone know if they are allowed more and if they're not then why?

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Jedipickles · 21 Feb 2019

It would be limited by weight of the train - as the consist would have to transverse gradients etc
Plus there's platforms lengths and signals to consider as well

AM9 · 21 Feb 2019

Jedipickles said:
It would be limited by weight of the train - as the consist would have to transverse gradients etc
Plus there's platforms lengths and signals to consider as well

Apart from the tours using preserved Stanier 8Fs, I doubt that most of the other locos could keep to the available paths with much more than 400t trailing loads, which might have to include a 100t diesel as backup on the prime routes.

ac6000cw · 21 Feb 2019

Jedipickles said:
as the consist would have to transverse gradients etc

...especially in relation to the Devon banks, as mentioned by the OP, which are both steeply graded and twisty. Much more territory for 2-8-0 8F than 'racehorse' Pacific haulage, more so if it's raining...

AM9 said:
which might have to include a 100t diesel as backup on the prime routes.

...but that can haul itself (and provide banking assistance as needed on the hills), so it should be a help not hindrance.

UP13 · 22 Feb 2019

ac6000cw said:
...but that can haul itself (and provide banking assistance as needed on the hills), so it should be a help not hindrance.

Diesels are switched off where possible - people tend to complain about hearing a diesel growling instead of a steam engine puffing.

It is pretty much impossible for a driver yo only apply the exact amount of power just to haul itself. In reality the diesel will be assisting the train or will be a burden on the steam engine.

swt class 450 · 22 Feb 2019

If it is not possible to add extra coaches then i think the busy popular railtours should be standard class only in order to give them more capacity. The first class carriages have a much lower capacity and so carry less people.

Peter Mugridge · 22 Feb 2019

user1234 said:
If it is not possible to add extra coaches then i think the busy popular railtours should be standard class only in order to give them more capacity. The first class carriages have a much lower capacity and so carry less people.

The premium on the first class tickets, though, outweighs the extra capacity in terms of income - and it's the income which is the important bit for the operator...

Cowley · 22 Feb 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
The premium on the first class tickets, though, outweighs the extra capacity in terms of income - and it's the income which is the important bit for the operator...

Absolutely. Hence the continuing success of trains like The Belmond British Pullman etc.

Charlie Smythe · 22 Feb 2019

user1234 said:
If it is not possible to add extra coaches then i think the busy popular railtours should be standard class only in order to give them more capacity. The first class carriages have a much lower capacity and so carry less people.

Unlike the scheduled services run by the likes of GWR, XC, Virgin trains etc. capacity on rail tours is not a concern. Companies like path finder tours don't care if they're carrying 150 passengers paying 300 pounds each, or 300 passengers paying 150. The revenue will be the same no matter what.

hooverboy · 4 Mar 2019

Charlie Smythe said:
Does anyone know why many rail tours seem to be limited to 13 coaches. I know the number of coaches depends on the number of tickets as there's no point in running 12 if you can only fill 9. However, the Flying Scotsman trip to Devon and Cornwall in 2018 was extremely popular and sold out and still only had 12 or 13. Why didn't they just add more coaches to make more money? The most I have ever seen, at least in Devon and Cornwall is 13 coaches.

I may be missing something but surely they can go more than 13 (12 + support), or are they limited?

Does anyone know if they are allowed more and if they're not then why?

certainly depends on tractive effort vs trailing weight/gradients etc.

also depends what type of carriage and time of year.

for winter/early spring railtours adequate heating is required,then you are limited by ETH index of the loco.
from memory 1 carriage = 4ETH.

so as a rough calculation a class 37/47/50(eth index 66) can haul 16 carriages max.

likely similar with steam+mk1 rake steam heating.

43096 · 4 Mar 2019

hooverboy said:
so as a rough calculation a class 37/47/50(eth index 66) can haul 16 carriages max.

Class 37/4 is not ETH index 66 - something around 30 I believe. The story at the time was that they were spec’d like that as it was adequate for Provincial services use and would prevent InterCity borrowing them as they did with 31/4s when they were short of an ETH Duff.

Don Steedy · 6 Mar 2019

43096 said:
Class 37/4 is not ETH index 66 - something around 30 I believe. The story at the time was that they were spec’d like that as it was adequate for Provincial services use and would prevent InterCity borrowing them as they did with 31/4s when they were short of an ETH Duff.

The ETH capability of a 37/4 is rubbish. A bit like the rest of the loco really

43096 · 6 Mar 2019

Don Steedy said:
The ETH capability of a 37/4 is rubbish. A bit like the rest of the loco really

As stated above the low ETH output was for a reason. The second part of your statement is just laughable: given that even the newest 37s are well over 50 years old and some are still in mainline use, to describe them as “rubbish” is patently wrong.

Charlie Smythe · 6 Mar 2019

Don Steedy said:
The ETH capability of a 37/4 is rubbish. A bit like the rest of the loco really

Whats wrong with 37's? Lasted for over half a century, make a mega sound, fairly powerful and a low RA rating makes them a very good loco. If not, why do Colas and DRS still use them so much?

Journeyman · 6 Mar 2019

Charlie Smythe said:
Whats wrong with 37's? Lasted for over half a century, make a mega sound, fairly powerful and a low RA rating makes them a very good loco. If not, why do Colas and DRS still use them so much?

I'd say the 37 is one of the most successful and flexible locos ever to run in this country.

6Gman · 6 Mar 2019

In the old days (1960s to 1990s) D455 was a standard timing load based on 13 coaches. May be relevant?

jopsuk · 6 Mar 2019

13 carriages of Mark 1 or Mark 2, at ~19.7m each*, is 256m. That's without another 20-25m of steam loco, and ~20m of diesel loco.

There's not many platforms available that can accommodate that, especially at terminals where an over-length train means other platforms are blocked.

Charlie Smythe · 7 Mar 2019

Journeyman said:
I'd say the 37 is one of the most successful and flexible locos ever to run in this country.

They certainly are.

Spartacus · 9 Mar 2019

Incidentally, back to railtour lengths, certain operators were for a long time prone to overselling compared to their bid and running with a few extra carriages on the day, so the timings would be out, but then in the railway press it was always blamed on NR for offering unrealistic timings!

stuartl · 9 Mar 2019

In the case of the flying scotsman, I seem to remember that the consultants brought in to supervise the restoration said that 11(?) coaches should be the maximum to minimise wear on the engine.

tiptoptaff · 10 Mar 2019

stuartl said:
In the case of the flying scotsman, I seem to remember that the consultants brought in to supervise the restoration said that 11(?) coaches should be the maximum to minimise wear on the engine.

I'd hardly call Rielly and Sons "consultants"

They overhauled it on their own. 11 is a reasonable load for an A3

stuartl · 10 Mar 2019

I was referring to First Class Partnerships.
http://www.fcpworld.net/2016/03/18/flying-scotsman-restoration-success/

STEVIEBOY1 · 17 Mar 2019

Charlie Smythe said:
Does anyone know why many rail tours seem to be limited to 13 coaches. I know the number of coaches depends on the number of tickets as there's no point in running 12 if you can only fill 9. However, the Flying Scotsman trip to Devon and Cornwall in 2018 was extremely popular and sold out and still only had 12 or 13. Why didn't they just add more coaches to make more money? The most I have ever seen, at least in Devon and Cornwall is 13 coaches.

I may be missing something but surely they can go more than 13 (12 + support), or are they limited?

Does anyone know if they are allowed more and if they're not then why?

I was on a trip yesterday to Cranmore, there were 13 carriages; 11 passenger coaches, a kitchen car and a support coach, plus 2 large diesel locomotives.

Number of coaches on UK mainline rail tours.

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