Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

Kite159 said:

More to do with limits into how many EMUs can operate north of Cambridge?

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That and length of platforms I believe.

Looks like mayhem again between Lynn and Cambridge - picked a good week off. Departure board at KLN just showing 'Listen for anouncements'.

For those interested in the May timetable, I've now been through the timetable with a fine toothcomb as part of putting it into Simsig, so here's an amended version of what I posted a little while ago, which summarises the main changes:

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

MF the main change is the second Cambridge/Brighton, which finishes mid-evening reverting to hourly. There's also an extra early-morning KX-Cambridge semi-fast as part of the same pattern. The second Cambridge/Brighton calls at Ashwell through the day, and there's a few extra Ashwell calls on the remaining services during the peaks. One morning service does Brighton/Royston and return as opposed to reaching Cambridge.

**A nasty thing I’ve noticed is one of the all-day Cambridge/Brighton diagrams is 700/0, which unfortunately hits the high peak on the GN side. Due to the diagram alterations to accommodate the new service, this also means some existing 12-car services reduce to 8-car. Regulars may wish to watch out for this - it’s the diagram which commences with the 0603 KX to Cambridge.**

Many extra Letchworth calls and a few extra Royston calls on the 387 services, with almost everything departing KX at XX:09 and XX:39 after 16:39. This seems reasonably sensible IMO, and no doubt is in response to Letchworth being one of the most vociferously objectionable to the new service, in particular having lost their non-stop London services. Letchworth also gets 387 calls on Saturday evenings. In consequence of these changes Ashwell loses nearly all its 387 calls.

The remaining Royston 365 services revert to Baldock as expected, except for one morning service for some reason. Naturally this also results in some changes to incoming workings at KX for some of the evening peak 365 services.

The evening peak XX:06 and XX:36 fast Peterborough services now depart at XX:12 and XX:42, with the 19:36 KX-Peterborough revised to depart at 19:18. The 16:42 service now calls at Stevenage, and all evening peak (but not late evening) 1PXX services are now booked to use the down slow line north of Woolmer Green (see how long that lasts with 10tph through this section!). The 19:57 KX-Baldock 365 service now calls at Knebworth (Hitchin passengers will be furious at losing their last remaining non-stop service!).

No real changes to the KX-Cambridge North/Cambridge stopping service, apart from some very minor timing tweaks. 19:23 ex KX now departs at 19:21 matching everything else. Likewise the 2Yxx 700 services are unchanged, apart from a couple of minor changes to ECS moves.

The inners appear largely left alone, everything is booked for 1x717 although presumably 313s will substitute on some diagrams at the beginning. The remaining Stevenage via Hertford services now terminate at Watton-at-Stone, the only exceptions being the small handful which originate or finish at Letchworth sidings which run in service from or to Stevenage. The only other real change is some very minor retimings, mainly around Watton-at-Stone and Hertford North, and a couple of services which take different routings between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace.

There's also some tidying up of reporting numbers across the board, mainly involving ECS services, but also including a couple of passengers services, for example 2C16/2C33 becoming 2R16/2R33 to denote that this working reverses at Letchworth.

LNER, HT and GC services are largely unchanged apart from some very small timing tweaks. There are however some minor changes to a small number of LNER incoming/outgoing workings at King's Cross. In consequence of this there are some changes to platform allocations at King's Cross throughout the day, this also including some GN/TL services.

Note I haven't looked at anything north of Royston / Sandy so there may be some changes there.

SATURDAYS

On Saturdays the various gaps have been filled, and there's a half-hourly KX-Peterborough service all day, which is a mixture of 700/1, 2x365 and 2x387, mainly the first two. Cambridge/Brighton is hourly through the day formed out 700/1s with one from and to King's Cross at the start and end of the day as with weekdays. The KX-Cambridge stopping service is half hourly all day, with half the service turning back at Royston. This is all 700/0 apart from one late evening service which is formed of a single 387. For 365 fans, this timetable marks the end of 365 working to Ely - whilst there's a small amount of spillover in the diagrams from the Peterborough service, all such services are 2x387. There's little scope for 2x365 appearing on the stopping services as the Royston services all interwork with the Cambridge services, and the start and finish locations don't readily match up for 1x365; one diagram starts and finishes at Letchworth which is the only one a 365 could readily work, although they could appear elsewhere with suitable diagram adjustments made on the day.

The 387 service is 2tph alternating between Ely and Kings Lynn, with Letchworth and Royston calls on some services in the evening, and on one early morning up service.

For the Moorgate service it’s a straight 2tph Moorgate to Welwyn and 2tph Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone, with one of the latter continuing to Stevenage.

SUNDAYS

As far as Sunday goes, the main change is 1tph Gatwick/Cambridge through the bulk of the day, formed 700/1. The Peterborough service is hourly, now booked for 700/1s through the bulk of the day. There's a few GN services formed of 1x387 or 2x387 mainly at the extremes of the day to various destinations. The tidal flow limited-stop Peterborough extras are mainly 2x365 with one 2x387 trip, plus there’s one slower return Peterborough/KX early morning trip formed of 2x365. Unless I've missed anything this is the only booked 365 activity on Sundays, although I can't see any reason why they can't substitute for 700/1s reasonably readily on the Peterborough service.

On Sundays the 387 service through the day is hourly KX to Kings Lynn, all fast from and to Cambridge.

The Moorgate service is same as Saturday, except both hourly Hertford loop services continue to Stevenage.

37047 said:

Looks like mayhem again between Lynn and Cambridge - picked a good week off. Departure board at KLN just showing 'Listen for anouncements'.

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Least there's a greater anglia alternative?

bramling said:

For those interested in the May timetable, I've now been through the timetable with a fine toothcomb as part of putting it into Simsig, so here's an amended version of what I posted a little while ago, which summarises the main changes:

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

MF the main change is the second Cambridge/Brighton, which finishes mid-evening reverting to hourly. There's also an extra early-morning KX-Cambridge semi-fast as part of the same pattern. The second Cambridge/Brighton calls at Ashwell through the day, and there's a few extra Ashwell calls on the remaining services during the peaks. One morning service does Brighton/Royston and return as opposed to reaching Cambridge.

Many extra Letchworth calls and a few extra Royston calls on the 387 services, with almost everything departing KX at XX:09 and XX:39 after 16:39. This seems reasonably sensible IMO, and no doubt is in response to Letchworth being one of the most vociferously objectionable to the new service, in particular having lost their non-stop London services. Letchworth also gets 387 calls on Saturday evenings. In consequence of these changes Ashwell loses nearly all its 387 calls.

The remaining Royston 365 services revert to Baldock as expected, except for one morning service for some reason. Naturally this also results in some changes to incoming workings at KX for some of the evening peak 365 services.

The evening peak XX:06 and XX:36 fast Peterborough services now depart at XX:12 and XX:42, with the 19:36 KX-Peterborough revised to depart at 19:18. The 16:42 service now calls at Stevenage, and all evening peak (but not late evening) 1PXX services are now booked to use the down slow line north of Woolmer Green (see how long that lasts with 10tph through this section!). The 19:57 KX-Baldock 365 service now calls at Knebworth (Hitchin passengers will be furious at losing their last remaining non-stop service!).

No real changes to the KX-Cambridge North/Cambridge stopping service, apart from some very minor timing tweaks. 19:23 ex KX now departs at 19:21 matching everything else. Likewise the 2Yxx 700 services are unchanged, apart from a couple of minor changes to ECS moves.

The inners appear largely left alone, everything is booked for 1x717 although presumably 313s will substitute on some diagrams at the beginning. The remaining Stevenage via Hertford services now terminate at Watton-at-Stone, the only exceptions being the small handful which originate or finish at Letchworth sidings which run in service from or to Stevenage. The only other real change is some very minor retimings, mainly around Watton-at-Stone and Hertford North, and a couple of services which take different routings between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace.

There's also some tidying up of reporting numbers across the board, mainly involving ECS services, but also including a couple of passengers services, for example 2C16/2C33 becoming 2R16/2R33 to denote that this working reverses at Letchworth.

LNER, HT and GC services are largely unchanged apart from some very small timing tweaks. There are however some minor changes to a small number of LNER incoming/outgoing workings at King's Cross. In consequence of this there are some changes to platform allocations at King's Cross throughout the day, this also including some GN/TL services.

Note I haven't looked at anything north of Royston / Sandy so there may be some changes there.

SATURDAYS

On Saturdays the various gaps have been filled, and there's a half-hourly KX-Peterborough service all day, which is a mixture of 700/1, 2x365 and 2x387. Cambridge/Brighton is hourly through the day formed out 700/1s with one from and to King's Cross at the start and end of the day as with weekdays. The KX-Cambridge stopping service is half hourly all day, with half the service turning back at Royston. This is all 700/0 apart from one late evening service which is formed of a single 387. For 365 fans, this timetable appears to mark the end of 365 working to Ely - whilst there's a small amount of spillover in the diagrams from the Peterborough service, all such services are all 2x387. There's little scope for 2x365 appearing on the stopping services as the Royston services all interwork with the Cambridge services, and the start and finish locations don't readily match up for 1x365, although of course it could happen with suitable adjustments being arranged on the day.

SUNDAYS

As far as Sunday goes, the main change is 1tph Gatwick/Cambridge through the bulk of the day, formed 700/1. The Peterborough service is hourly, now booked for 700/1s through the bulk of the day. There's a few GN services formed of 1x387 or 2x387 at the extremes of the day to various destinations. The 3x tidal flow limited stop Peterborough extras are a mix of 365 and 387. Unless I've missed anything this is the only booked 365 activity on Sundays, although I can't see any reason why they can't substitute for 700/1s reasonably readily on the Peterborough service.

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Thanks for this

on the 717’s being booked from the May time table change it is not a guarantee(or they could have started to takeover) they will operate a single timetable passenger service during the May timetable validilty

much more likely it’s based on the original plan that they would be gone by May
(Any further discussion is not for this thread)

387star said:

Least there's a greater anglia alternative?

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Two trains per day in each direction isn't much of an alternative (0517 and 0617 KLN-LST and 1707 and 1807 LST-KLN). All the rest are GN.

Edit: obviously more GA services if you're only considering the ELY-CBG portion of the line but as I live in King's Lynn, that makes little difference to my commute.

Used a core train (St Pancras to City Thameslink) yesterday and ended up on the 17:45 service to Horsham (which had started at Peterborough)

Was really surprised at how empty it was and how few people got on at Farringdon or City Thameslink in comparison to the numbers waiting on the platform

Mikey C said:

Used a core train (St Pancras to City Thameslink) yesterday and ended up on the 17:45 service to Horsham (which had started at Peterborough)

Was really surprised at how empty it was and how few people got on at Farringdon or City Thameslink in comparison to the numbers waiting on the platform

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Some of the core GN services can be very empty especially off-peak. Things might have been different had Crossrail opened on time.

I’m not quite sure where all the GN passengers have gone in all honesty. Whilst the longer trains and more frequent service accounts for something, on Monday I got the 1957 out of KX which was after something like the preceding *four* Peterborough and Cambridge core services had been cancelled, yet there were still no more than 5-10 in the carriage.

One positive aspect of the new service is the Baldock services. The only issue is that reversing via the up platform can be highly disruptive at times, and in the longer term I don’t think will be sustainable. Either a siding will have to be built, preferably in the middle, or these services may find themselves cut back to Letchworth - which shouldn’t be a major problem as Baldock still has a 4tph service.

Mikey C said:

Used a core train (St Pancras to City Thameslink) yesterday and ended up on the 17:45 service to Horsham (which had started at Peterborough)

Was really surprised at how empty it was and how few people got on at Farringdon or City Thameslink in comparison to the numbers waiting on the platform

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I've got one from London Bridge to St Pancras a few times, at around 5.45pm, and they've been virtually empty.

bramling said:

I’m not quite sure where all the GN passengers have gone in all honesty.

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Some of us lucky ones got a job much closer to home

stut said:

Some of us lucky ones got a job much closer to home

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Of course the “wait for a random amount of time on a crowded core platform” experience might well put a lot of people off.

One can choose between a rainy windswept London Bridge, a wind tunnel at Blackfriars, incessant announcements and being barged off your feet at Farringdon, or a long walk through a shopping centre then deafened by squeal at St Pancras. Travel transformed for good?

bramling said:

Of course the “wait for a random amount of time on a crowded core platform” experience might well put a lot of people off.

One can choose between a rainy windswept London Bridge, a wind tunnel at Blackfriars, incessant announcements and being barged off your feet at Farringdon, or a long walk through a shopping centre then deafened by squeal at St Pancras. Travel transformed for good?

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Hey, you forgot a dank, poorly lit sewer at City Thameslink!

ijmad said:

Hey, you forgot a dank, poorly lit sewer at City Thameslink!

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Perenially stuck in 1990s decor City Thameslink

ijmad said:

Hey, you forgot a dank, poorly lit sewer at City Thameslink!

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Well made comments , the architects will be so disappointed. Blackfriars holds the record for bleakness of a mid to late Winter evening.

bramling said:

For those interested in the May timetable, I've now been through the timetable with a fine toothcomb as part of putting it into Simsig, so here's an amended version of what I posted a little while ago, which summarises the main changes:

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS

MF the main change is the second Cambridge/Brighton, which finishes mid-evening reverting to hourly. There's also an extra early-morning KX-Cambridge semi-fast as part of the same pattern. The second Cambridge/Brighton calls at Ashwell through the day, and there's a few extra Ashwell calls on the remaining services during the peaks. One morning service does Brighton/Royston and return as opposed to reaching Cambridge.

Many extra Letchworth calls and a few extra Royston calls on the 387 services, with almost everything departing KX at XX:09 and XX:39 after 16:39. This seems reasonably sensible IMO, and no doubt is in response to Letchworth being one of the most vociferously objectionable to the new service, in particular having lost their non-stop London services. Letchworth also gets 387 calls on Saturday evenings. In consequence of these changes Ashwell loses nearly all its 387 calls.

The remaining Royston 365 services revert to Baldock as expected, except for one morning service for some reason. Naturally this also results in some changes to incoming workings at KX for some of the evening peak 365 services.

The evening peak XX:06 and XX:36 fast Peterborough services now depart at XX:12 and XX:42, with the 19:36 KX-Peterborough revised to depart at 19:18. The 16:42 service now calls at Stevenage, and all evening peak (but not late evening) 1PXX services are now booked to use the down slow line north of Woolmer Green (see how long that lasts with 10tph through this section!). The 19:57 KX-Baldock 365 service now calls at Knebworth (Hitchin passengers will be furious at losing their last remaining non-stop service!).

No real changes to the KX-Cambridge North/Cambridge stopping service, apart from some very minor timing tweaks. 19:23 ex KX now departs at 19:21 matching everything else. Likewise the 2Yxx 700 services are unchanged, apart from a couple of minor changes to ECS moves.

The inners appear largely left alone, everything is booked for 1x717 although presumably 313s will substitute on some diagrams at the beginning. The remaining Stevenage via Hertford services now terminate at Watton-at-Stone, the only exceptions being the small handful which originate or finish at Letchworth sidings which run in service from or to Stevenage. The only other real change is some very minor retimings, mainly around Watton-at-Stone and Hertford North, and a couple of services which take different routings between Finsbury Park and Alexandra Palace.

There's also some tidying up of reporting numbers across the board, mainly involving ECS services, but also including a couple of passengers services, for example 2C16/2C33 becoming 2R16/2R33 to denote that this working reverses at Letchworth.

LNER, HT and GC services are largely unchanged apart from some very small timing tweaks. There are however some minor changes to a small number of LNER incoming/outgoing workings at King's Cross. In consequence of this there are some changes to platform allocations at King's Cross throughout the day, this also including some GN/TL services.

Note I haven't looked at anything north of Royston / Sandy so there may be some changes there.

SATURDAYS

On Saturdays the various gaps have been filled, and there's a half-hourly KX-Peterborough service all day, which is a mixture of 700/1, 2x365 and 2x387. Cambridge/Brighton is hourly through the day formed out 700/1s with one from and to King's Cross at the start and end of the day as with weekdays. The KX-Cambridge stopping service is half hourly all day, with half the service turning back at Royston. This is all 700/0 apart from one late evening service which is formed of a single 387. For 365 fans, this timetable appears to mark the end of 365 working to Ely - whilst there's a small amount of spillover in the diagrams from the Peterborough service, all such services are all 2x387. There's little scope for 2x365 appearing on the stopping services as the Royston services all interwork with the Cambridge services, and the start and finish locations don't readily match up for 1x365, although of course it could happen with suitable adjustments being arranged on the day.

The 387 service is 2tph alternating between Ely and Kings Lynn, with Letchworth and Royston calls on some services in the evening, and on one early morning up service.

For the Moorgate service it’s a straight 2tph Moorgate to Welwyn and 2tph Moorgate to Watton-at-Stone, with one of the latter continuing to Stevenage.

SUNDAYS

As far as Sunday goes, the main change is 1tph Gatwick/Cambridge through the bulk of the day, formed 700/1. The Peterborough service is hourly, now booked for 700/1s through the bulk of the day. There's a few GN services formed of 1x387 or 2x387 at the extremes of the day to various destinations. The 3x tidal flow limited stop Peterborough extras are a mix of 365 and 387. Unless I've missed anything this is the only booked 365 activity on Sundays, although I can't see any reason why they can't substitute for 700/1s reasonably readily on the Peterborough service.

On Sundays the 387 service through the day is hourly KX to Kings Lynn, all fast from and to Cambridge.

The Moorgate service is same as Saturday, except both hourly Hertford loop services continue to Stevenage.

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Genuinely, thank you. That is an excellent summary and analysis.

Though I'm not looking forward to the 1642 King's Cross-King's Lynn becoming a 1639 and re-gaining it's Letchworth call (as the 1644 did pre-May); it's usually wedged already!

ChiefPlanner said:

Well made comments , the architects will be so disappointed. Blackfriars holds the record for bleakness of a mid to late Winter evening.

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Blackfriars however, on a glorious sunny morning is wonderful!

bramling said:

Some of the core GN services can be very empty especially off-peak. Things might have been different had Crossrail opened on time.

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I think Crossrail will change things. Going to Canary Wharf from the GN, for example, will be far more logical via Farringdon.

Plus when the Maidstone-Cambridges are (eventually) introduced might shift the 'centre of gravity' on the GN so more people default to the core rather than King's Cross.

The current 15/15/30 3tph Cambridge/Peterborough service ex-core is not *quite* turn up and go for Stevenage and Hitchin-ites... making it 4tph from May, evenly spread, might produce a shift, with less perception (than there probably is today) of a 'random' timetable through the core (and more re-assurance in the event of something late from the south).

ChiefPlanner said:

Well made comments , the architects will be so disappointed. Blackfriars holds the record for bleakness of a mid to late Winter evening.

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Blackfriars has one of the best views from the platforms of any urban station in the UK. When it's not cold it's a great place to wait for a train. Just a shame that it was designed without anywhere warm that you can sit and wait. That and an overbridge connecting the platforms around the midpoint would make it so much better.

BRX said:

Blackfriars has one of the best views from the platforms of any urban station in the UK. When it's not cold it's a great place to wait for a train. Just a shame that it was designed without anywhere warm that you can sit and wait. That and an overbridge connecting the platforms around the midpoint would make it so much better.

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I agree entirely. All things being equal, Blackfriars is my station of choice for London - no other station that I can think of has comparable views, and now that it has the entrance on the South side of the Thames, so you can, if you need to, walk to Waterloo in not much longer than travelling by train via London Bridge. I can't say that I've ever been particularly cold there, if it was cold I suppose I could wait on the concourse downstairs. I do agree with your comment about the overbridge though.

BRX said:

Blackfriars has one of the best views from the platforms of any urban station in the UK. When it's not cold it's a great place to wait for a train. Just a shame that it was designed without anywhere warm that you can sit and wait. That and an overbridge connecting the platforms around the midpoint would make it so much better.

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Wordsworthian (if you know the poem) , on a perfect morning agreed. It does need a heated sanctuary for the cold weather.

Mind you the old , cramped , shabby , congested Blackfriars (with terrible tube access) had a broken down charm and was equally , if not so cold.

BRX said:

... That and an overbridge connecting the platforms around the midpoint would make it so much better.

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Impossible within the planning restrictions, I’d have thought.

Anyone know where all the Moorgate drivers are this evening? Is it 717 training or general rubbish rostering?

Lack of cover.

jon0844 said:

Lack of cover.

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Do the drivers have long weekends leave granted in their agreements ..?

Bedpan said:

I can't say that I've ever been particularly cold there.

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Try waiting for the last train round the Wimbledon loop on a clear winter's night when you're already tired and just want to get home! It's not quite so bad with the new timetable as the longest you generally have to wait is now 15 rather than 30 minutes which makes quite a difference.

Ianno87 said:

I think Crossrail will change things. Going to Canary Wharf from the GN, for example, will be far more logical via Farringdon.

Plus when the Maidstone-Cambridges are (eventually) introduced might shift the 'centre of gravity' on the GN so more people default to the core rather than King's Cross.

The current 15/15/30 3tph Cambridge/Peterborough service ex-core is not *quite* turn up and go for Stevenage and Hitchin-ites... making it 4tph from May, evenly spread, might produce a shift, with less perception (than there probably is today) of a 'random' timetable through the core (and more re-assurance in the event of something late from the south).

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Farringdon - even off peak - looks busier with a London Bridge etc access available. Crossrail when it opens will be a game changer , off the MML (less interface onto the JLE at West Hampstead) , and new flows off the GN.

A very good friend drives Welwyn to Canary Wharf (they car share and take it in turns) , and hates it , I "sold" him the train which he repeatedly reminds me , he cannot wait for the new link.

Hope he does not retire before he gets to travel daily on it.

ChiefPlanner said:

Do the drivers have long weekends leave granted in their agreements ..?

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Like a lot of London workers these days, they work from home on Fridays

Mikey C said:

Like a lot of London workers these days, they work from home on Fridays

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Made me chuckle!

jon0844 said:

Made me chuckle!

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A good comment , though not funny for those who have done their "traditional" 5 days a week toil. Maybe I am on old so and so ,- but we never generally had issues with covering Friday late turns . Saturday was always the problem - tackled partly by piling in some longer turns on the AM Sat turn , and shorter PM turns (where possible) on the late turn , with some reasonable finishes around 9 or 10 pm which gave some options for "sociability" , - the back part covered by the night turns booked on a bit earlier. That way , both the staff and the public had a fair chance. I wonder if today's management consider these "humanistic" actions. As for me , I had the ultimate on call anyway ..

Mikey C said:

Used a core train (St Pancras to City Thameslink) yesterday and ended up on the 17:45 service to Horsham (which had started at Peterborough)



Was really surprised at how empty it was and how few people got on at Farringdon or City Thameslink in comparison to the numbers waiting on the platform

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The peak evening horshams are painfully slow running behind a southern peak extra all stopper between east croydon and three bridges