Motorway hold ups

Bald Rick · 26 Mar 2019

bramling said:
And, presumably, a lot of people would get flashed leading to it being too much administration to put together all the prosecution notices? In the same way that many motorway cameras are reputedly set to a rather higher level above the normal threshold.

AIUI the admin is mostly automatic.

However I understand that every variable speed camera now has to have a picture of the applicable speed limit at the time to accompany it. That is why there is a not so obvious camera (in grey) about 100m on the approach to where the speed cameras (in yellow) are located, which on most Smart / ATM motorways is now on a cantilever on the side of a selected gantry. The ‘grey’ camera takes a picture of you on approach to the gantry with the speed limit displayed, before the ‘yellow’ camera takes a picture of you with your speed shown. Otherwise there would be no proof ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ that the signs were on and displaying the same speed as the camera was enforcing.

This is all my supposition, as a law abiding motorway driver. Happy to be corrected by someone in the know!

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Bald Rick · 26 Mar 2019

nlogax said:
I've always been told that motorway cameras are mostly set to 10% of the posted limit + 2mph - with the exception of NSL limits under variable speed sections which are set slightly higher. Is that not correct?

bramling said:
In all honesty, I don’t know hence floating it as a question, however I’ve heard it suggested from multiple sources that the threshold is often much higher. Which would tally with that I’ve never been “done”.

The simple answer is ‘it depends’. My Mrs got nabbed for 34 in a 30 (on a dual carriageway, natch).

Cowley said:
How does it work with average speed check cameras then?
With normal cameras you have a picture with the number plate taken of the rear of the vehicle as it passes a fixed camera over the limit (plus an extra %). But is an average speed limit system capable of showing shots of a vehicle travelling over a longer distance at a speed above the permitted limit?

I suppose what I’m also asking is has anyone on here (or anyone you know of) ever been prosecuted for excessive speed through an average speed limited section of road?
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone being prosecuted. Not that I can think of anyway.

Yes I know people who have been had on average speed cameras. It checks you in at the start of a section, checks you out again at the end of a section, and then it’s v=s/t...

Cowley · 26 Mar 2019

Bald Rick said:
AIUI the admin is mostly automatic.

However I understand that every variable speed camera now has to have a picture of the applicable speed limit at the time to accompany it. That is why there is a not so obvious camera (in grey) about 100m on the approach to where the speed cameras (in yellow) are located, which on most Smart / ATM motorways is now on a cantilever on the side of a selected gantry. The ‘grey’ camera takes a picture of you on approach to the gantry with the speed limit displayed, before the ‘yellow’ camera takes a picture of you with your speed shown. Otherwise there would be no proof ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ that the signs were on and displaying the same speed as the camera was enforcing.

This is all my supposition, as a law abiding motorway driver. Happy to be corrected by someone in the know!

Did there used to be some kind of law about not being allowed to take a face on picture of the driver too?
(I’m also a law abiding driver with a licence so clean you could eat your dinner off it. It’s interesting to know how it works though...)

PeterC · 27 Mar 2019

Bald Rick said:
The simple answer is ‘it depends’. My Mrs got nabbed for 34 in a 30 (on a dual carriageway, natch).

.

Which would probably be showing as 37 on the speedo.

It is illegal for the speedo to under read so they are always callibrated with a margin the other way. I have seen people quote 10% but on my Nissan it seems to be a consistent 3mph.

edwin_m · 27 Mar 2019

Cowley said:
How does it work with average speed check cameras then?
With normal cameras you have a picture with the number plate taken of the rear of the vehicle as it passes a fixed camera over the limit (plus an extra %). But is an average speed limit system capable of showing shots of a vehicle travelling over a longer distance at a speed above the permitted limit?

I suppose what I’m also asking is has anyone on here (or anyone you know of) ever been prosecuted for excessive speed through an average speed limited section of road?
I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone being prosecuted. Not that I can think of anyway.

I don't think it could as it doesn't have a continuous view. Never happened to me either, but I'd guess you get two timestamped photos and a calculation of the average speed from the distance between them. I also don't understand why average speed cameras aren't specified for smart motorways to avoid the sudden braking.

Lucan · 27 Mar 2019

edwin_m said:
I also don't understand why average speed cameras aren't specified for smart motorways to avoid the sudden braking.

They don't avoid sudden braking. I've seen plenty of drivers standing on their brakes when they see an average speed camera. There are many people who don't understand what "average" means.

grid56126 · 27 Mar 2019

Two work colleagues have thus far admitted to getting fines for average speed cameras on the M23 (Roadworks).

I am intrigued as to whether you do / can receive more than one fine if you commit the offence over more than one section. I am guessing there are about 5 / 6 sections between the M25 & the Gatwick.

It is not uncommon ate quieter times to see cars piling on the brakes at each camera and then storming off to the next one. As mentioned above, some people just don't get average speeds.

nlogax · 27 Mar 2019

grid56126 said:
It is not uncommon ate quieter times to see cars piling on the brakes at each camera and then storming off to the next one. As mentioned above, some people just don't get average speeds.

I see a fair few piling on the brakes a few hundred yards to the camera and then properly dawdling up to it to bring their averages down. Downright effing dangerous.

Geezertronic · 27 Mar 2019

I would like to know - if the speed on the matrix sign changes to a lower speed, is there a grace period to allow cars to adjust their speed accordingly. For example if a matrix sign changes from 60 to 50 and I go under it 2 seconds later at 60, do I risk getting done for speeding (if there is a camera at that particular matrix station)?

nlogax · 27 Mar 2019

Geezertronic said:
I would like to know - if the speed on the matrix sign changes to a lower speed, is there a grace period to allow cars to adjust their speed accordingly. For example if a matrix sign changes from 60 to 50 and I go under it 2 seconds later at 60, do I risk getting done for speeding (if there is a camera at that particular matrix station)?

60 seconds..

https://www.wmsafetycameras.co.uk/cameras_work.php?cameramovie=HADECS

Bald Rick · 27 Mar 2019

PeterC said:
Which would probably be showing as 37 on the speedo.

It is illegal for the speedo to under read so they are always callibrated with a margin the other way. I have seen people quote 10% but on my Nissan it seems to be a consistent 3mph.

Her car speedo is bang on the speed (comparing to GPS and the radar speed signs that display your speed). My car however is indeed 2-3mph over.

AM9 · 27 Mar 2019

grid56126 said:
... I am intrigued as to whether you do / can receive more than one fine if you commit the offence over more than one section. I am guessing there are about 5 / 6 sections between the M25 & the Gatwick. ...

As I understand it, the cameras are connected as a group, and only one speeding offence can be verified per group. However, any two cameras can be used to time speeding vehicles as they pass through the group, (selectable per session) so if there were 6 cameras in the group, on Monday, it could be from camera 2 to 5; if on observation, there was persistent significant between cameras 4 and 6, come Tuesday, they could switch to 4-6, 4-5 or 5-6, so that prior knowledge doesn't help the persistent offender. Experience of the Highways Authority would be used to maximise the benefit of discouraging speeding by targeting those who behave like they are 'gaming the system'.

Jonny · 27 Mar 2019

Cowley said:
Did there used to be some kind of law about not being allowed to take a face on picture of the driver too?
(I’m also a law abiding driver with a licence so clean you could eat your dinner off it. It’s interesting to know how it works though...)

Indirectly so; I believe it related to the use of flash potentially impairing a driver's vision so it was the implication of another law. Newer systems are non-flash, and thus may be used face-on.

Mojo · 27 Mar 2019

Cowley said:
Going back to variable speed limits and average speed limit cameras. It’s remarkable how often you see just one or two cars bomb through them seemingly completely ignoring the limit.
I saw a ten year old (so probably not a plain clothed police vehicle) BMW going through the average (50 mph) speed section of some road works on the M20 at a full 75 mph last week, and was wondering if they knew something that I didn’t?
Or are they just so stupid that they’ll be surprised when a speeding ticket lands through their letterbox in a few days time?
Driving around with that much abandonment around there would surely see you lose your license in fairly short length of time?
I also saw someone going through all the cameras on the M25 way over the limit soon after.

Yes, I've always wondered this too. You regularly see people speeding along the A40 and A406 well in excess of the speed limit and getting quite angry at you for doing so; had a Royal Mail lorry come out of nowhere behind me last month at about 2a.m. when I was in the left hand lane driving at the speed limit on an otherwise empty road. He continually flashed his lights for whatever reason and then sped off up a sliproad.

bramling · 27 Mar 2019

Mojo said:
Yes, I've always wondered this too. You regularly see people speeding along the A40 and A406 well in excess of the speed limit and getting quite angry at you for doing so; had a Royal Mail lorry come out of nowhere behind me last month at about 2a.m. when I was in the left hand lane driving at the speed limit on an otherwise empty road. He continually flashed his lights for whatever reason and then sped off up a sliproad.

Same with lorries through roadworks when there’s a 50 mph limit enforced with average speed cameras - trucks seem to drive on their speed limiters which is well towards the higher end of the 50-60 range seemingly without consequence, quite often intimidating car drivers in the process. This makes such roadworks quite an unpleasant - and dangerous - experience. For me 60 mph would be safer as it would avoid this issue.

Naturally being able to select 50 mph on cruise control and simply let the car do its thing is too straightforward for this country! The difficulty with camera enforcement is that it only highlights one specific issue.

Bald Rick · 27 Mar 2019

bramling said:
Same with lorries through roadworks when there’s a 50 mph limit enforced with average speed cameras - trucks seem to drive on their speed limiters which is well towards the higher end of the 50-60 range seemingly without consequence, quite often intimidating car drivers in the process. This makes such roadworks quite an unpleasant - and dangerous - experience. For me 60 mph would be safer as it would avoid this issue.

Naturally being able to select 50 mph on cruise control and simply let the car do its thing is too straightforward for this country! The difficulty with camera enforcement is that it only highlights one specific issue.

It’s not so long ago that motorway roadwork speed limits were 40 - that was really painful, and in my view dangerous as people stopped paying attention.

Of course it wasn’t long before that that there were no roadwork speed limits (other than the NSL), at least not on motoways. They were ‘advisory’ and not mandatory.

Can anyone remember when they were brought in? I’m thinking mid 90s.

Jonny · 27 Mar 2019

bramling said:
Same with lorries through roadworks when there’s a 50 mph limit enforced with average speed cameras - trucks seem to drive on their speed limiters which is well towards the higher end of the 50-60 range seemingly without consequence, quite often intimidating car drivers in the process. This makes such roadworks quite an unpleasant - and dangerous - experience. For me 60 mph would be safer as it would avoid this issue.

Naturally being able to select 50 mph on cruise control and simply let the car do its thing is too straightforward for this country! The difficulty with camera enforcement is that it only highlights one specific issue.

Especially when trucks are confined to lane 1 for the duration of the works...

Puffing Devil · 29 Mar 2019

In other news, the first Multi-Vehicle accident occurred in the new Smart Motorway section between J19-18 on the M6 this morning at 2am. Sympathies to all those involved and affected.

This is the type of incident that the Smart Motorway was supposed to avoid, yet here we are again in the accident corridor of J16-20. I'm not convinced by the safety of removing the hard shoulder and allowing 70mph running. The road is only just opening now.

PeterC · 29 Mar 2019

Puffing Devil said:
In other news, the first Multi-Vehicle accident occurred in the new Smart Motorway section between J19-18 on the M6 this morning at 2am. Sympathies to all those involved and affected.

This is the type of incident that the Smart Motorway was supposed to avoid, yet here we are again in the accident corridor of J16-20. I'm not convinced by the safety of removing the hard shoulder and allowing 70mph running. The road is only just opening now.

My experience as a regular M25 user is that smart motorways are better at keeping traffic moving in normal congestion but really fall apart when there is a problem.

Geezertronic · 29 Mar 2019

Puffing Devil said:
In other news, the first Multi-Vehicle accident occurred in the new Smart Motorway section between J19-18 on the M6 this morning at 2am. Sympathies to all those involved and affected.

Unfortunately I see the aftermath of shunts in the Smart Mototways section all of the time, mainly I assume because people are not paying attention and rear-end the car in front, or the car in front brakes heavily to slow down for a camera, or a mixture of both

Puffing Devil said:
This is the type of incident that the Smart Motorway was supposed to avoid, yet here we are again in the accident corridor of J16-20. I'm not convinced by the safety of removing the hard shoulder and allowing 70mph running. The road is only just opening now.

Whilst I agree with the hard shoulder sentiment, I was under the impression that the hard shoulder was not used as a running lane unless the speed was 60mph or lower as shown by the matrix signs? or is it different on that section?

Bald Rick · 29 Mar 2019

It’s different, there is no hard shoulder. It’s just 4 lanes and an occasional lay-by. It’s known as All Lane Running. The first stretch was the M25 from the A1 to M11, and there’s plenty on the M1 and M6 now too.

bramling · 29 Mar 2019

Puffing Devil said:
In other news, the first Multi-Vehicle accident occurred in the new Smart Motorway section between J19-18 on the M6 this morning at 2am. Sympathies to all those involved and affected.

This is the type of incident that the Smart Motorway was supposed to avoid, yet here we are again in the accident corridor of J16-20. I'm not convinced by the safety of removing the hard shoulder and allowing 70mph running. The road is only just opening now.

I’ve always got the feeling that the mitigations on smart motorways are simply an attempt at trying to match the safety standards of conventional motorways without the safety feature of a hard shoulder.

How successfully they achieve that is a matter of debate. Many take the view that they’re a cheap way of adding extra capacity. I think they have their place, but in my view they’ve been implemented in places where a full widening would have been very much preferable.

Lucan · 29 Mar 2019

bramling said:
Many take the view that they’re [smart motorways] a cheap way of adding extra capacity.

That's more than a view. it's clearly a fact.

HOOVER29 · 30 Mar 2019

Just been reading that all new cars sold from 2022 are to be fitted with a speed limiters according to the car expert website.

“Intelligent speed assistance (ISA) is one of a raft of safety measures set to become mandatory in all new vehicles sold in Europe after the plans were given approval by the European Commission.”

ISA prevents vehicles from speeding by limiting engine power, but the system can be overridden or temporarily switched off.

swt_passenger · 30 Mar 2019

edwin_m said:
Everywhere I recall at the end of a managed motorway there's a national speed limit sign with a plate saying "end of active traffic management" or similar. This gets painted out if there is a road works speed limit in force.

I believe it’s normally white lettering on blue background, with the text reading “Variable speed limit ENDS” over an NSL sign. Older signs had the same text with the word ENDS below a separating line, but without the NSL sign.

PeterC · 30 Mar 2019

edwin_m said:
Everywhere I recall at the end of a managed motorway there's a national speed limit sign with a plate saying "end of active traffic management" or similar. This gets painted out if there is a road works speed limit in force.

The previous comments were about the end of a temporary limit not about the end of the whole managed section.

edwin_m · 30 Mar 2019

PeterC said:
The previous comments were about the end of a temporary limit not about the end of the whole managed section.

I was responding to:

Howardh said:
Also - if the very last bank is blank and the smart part ends, and the future road signs are 70; does that mean you are still under the restriction and if you are...until what point??

3141 · 4 Apr 2019

Geezertronic said:
I still think that the Red X needs to be displayed above the hard shoulder when the hard shoulder is not in use because, even though the matrix signs say that the hard shoulder is only to be used for emergency purposes, you still get people driving in it

Absolutely agree. Someone I know is doing seven years after hitting a car parked on the hard shoulder and killing three people. He'd missed the sign half a mile back that told him the left hand lane was becoming the hard shoulder again and he should get out of it. He also failed to see the stationary car (it was about 6.30 on a winter morning). CCTV showed a lorry that made a similar mistake, failing to notice the sign to move right, but luckily the driver spotted the parked car and moved aside in time.

Obviously, the driver I know was at fault. But the system that enables a section of motorway to change from being a hard shoulder to a driving lane and back again is potentially dangerous, and everything should be done - like a succession of Red Xs - to minimise the dangers.

PeterC · 5 Apr 2019

3141 said:
........

Obviously, the driver I know was at fault. But the system that enables a section of motorway to change from being a hard shoulder to a driving lane and back again is potentially dangerous, and everything should be done - like a succession of Red Xs - to minimise the dangers.

On the M25 (all lane running - no hard shoulder) I see the red Xs being ignored all the time, probably because they close the lanes so far in advance. You then get madness like traffic joining a closed lane at a junction.

edwin_m · 5 Apr 2019

It was mentioned further back that the X is accompanied by at least one "move over" arrow on a previous gantry, though if the lane has to be closed quickly in emergency some drives might see the X without the arrow. It ought to be possible to upgrade the camera system to photograph and penalise any vehicle driving under an arrow and then driving under the X on the next gantry.

Motorway hold ups

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