• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,942
Tfl are more aggressive than the DfT at getting developer funded transport enhancements for when flats and properties are built. I believe they aim for 100% of costs for infrastructure changes as a result of a development. And three years of any increased operational costs.

Would be intersted how that works in the local plan in that if no dwellings are built then TfL doesn't meet its obligations to the Local plan does the Department of Local Government get involved to get the dwellings built with no infrastructure?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

sciopero

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2019
Messages
5
I'd be surprised if the Bakerloo will arrive by 2030/35. Even if Crossrail finishes in 2020 I would think Crossrail 2 would be next but I cannot see that arriving before 2030 (construction having started around 2022 and possibly later due to HS2 (construction resources used for HS2 1st). The Bakerloo I cannot see being started until 2035 at the earliest with opening a good 20/25 years away from now, so around 2040/45.

I've heard that Crossrail 2 is dead. Crossrail has swallowed the budget entirely.

I do think the BLE will come to Lewisham but I think it will be way into the late 2030s at this stage.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,398
I've heard that Crossrail 2 is dead. Crossrail has swallowed the budget entirely.

I do think the BLE will come to Lewisham but I think it will be way into the late 2030s at this stage.
CR2 isn't dead, just not much development work cash and politician have other priorities.
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
Another forum reporting that 707s are on the way via a direct award. This of course means 458s are off the cards (thank God). Expect news before the end of the week.
 

bionic

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2013
Messages
883
Another forum reporting that 707s are on the way via a direct award. This of course means 458s are off the cards (thank God). Expect news before the end of the week.

Forgive my ignorance, but my understanding is that SWR decided to bin the 707s after taking over from SWT because they could get new trains for a lower leasing cost. Why then would SE take these 707s? Would it be for a lower leasing cost than SWT negotiated? If so then why weren't SWR able to renegotiate the 707 contract, citing the lower leasing costs now available? And if the leasing cost for 707s is still just as high as SWR inherited, then why don't SE just do what SWR did and get some brand new (perhaps ones that can run as 12 car) units for less than the 707s?
 

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,375
Losing 30 high capacity 376s then for 30 high capacity 707s? Except the 707s are slower aren't they? Not sure that's a big deal mind on Metro routes. But anyway, barely any increase in capacity if true.
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
Forgive my ignorance, but my understanding is that SWR decided to bin the 707s after taking over from SWT because they could get new trains for a lower leasing cost. Why then would SE take these 707s? Would it be for a lower leasing cost than SWT negotiated? If so then why weren't SWR able to renegotiate the 707 contract, citing the lower leasing costs now available? And if the leasing cost for 707s is still just as high as SWR inherited, then why don't SE just do what SWR did and get some brand new (perhaps ones that can run as 12 car) units for less than the 707s?

Because they’re available and because Southeastern needs the extra capacity if they in then are losing stock?
 

4-SUB 4732

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2018
Messages
2,150
Losing 30 high capacity 376s then for 30 high capacity 707s? Except the 707s are slower aren't they? Not sure that's a big deal mind on Metro routes. But anyway, barely any increase in capacity if true.

A reduction, if true.
 

ScotGG

Established Member
Joined
3 Apr 2013
Messages
1,375
How does it increase capacity I wonder? Only 10 car trains possible. Are they going to bin some Networkers or use some freed up by 707 arrival to bolster other services, but even then unless SDO added to remaining Networkers 10 car services can't go to 12?

How many 8 car services can go up to 10?
 

Hughqq

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2013
Messages
70
Is anyone able to access this Telegraph article, which reports a 'freeze' on all franchise decisions?

Here it is

Train operators are poised to net millions more from Britain’s most profitable lines after ministers hit the pause button on a string of rail tenders.

Decisions on the new operators of the Southeastern, West Coast and East Midlands franchises are due in the coming months.

But The Sunday Telegraph understands that long-term decisions on the train network have now been put on ice until a sweeping rail review by transport grandee Keith Williams is concluded.

City analysts expect delays of up to a year, something that would hand around £2.5bn in fares and £110m in profit to incumbent operators, according to rail regulator figures.

Mr Williams, the former British Airways chief executive, is due to report in the autumn, giving him until December to finalise his findings.

TELEMMGLPICT000162921799_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqP4pV-m6laGcMQMbuKYgJGRAi9QsRfzh9VHt38cYMhuU.jpeg

Chris Grayling, transport secretary CREDIT: DANNY LAWSON/PA
The rail industry has largely discounted a new Southeastern operator being in place by June 22. Incumbent Govia is expected to be handed a fresh short-term extension after ministers have already delayed a decision by six months. An announcement on East Midlands, run by Stagecoach, is timetabled for April with a changeover scheduled for August.

On West Coast, a joint venture between Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin and Stagecoach, an announcement is due to made between May and September. The trio rank among the biggest dividend payers, handing out around £350m over the last five years.

Sources said that Chris Grayling’s department had been caught off guard by recent comments by Mr Williams, who said “franchising cannot continue the way it is today”.
 

jcc

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2015
Messages
45
Here it is

Train operators are poised to net millions more from Britain’s most profitable lines after ministers hit the pause button on a string of rail tenders.

Decisions on the new operators of the Southeastern, West Coast and East Midlands franchises are due in the coming months.

But The Sunday Telegraph understands that long-term decisions on the train network have now been put on ice until a sweeping rail review by transport grandee Keith Williams is concluded.

City analysts expect delays of up to a year, something that would hand around £2.5bn in fares and £110m in profit to incumbent operators, according to rail regulator figures.

Mr Williams, the former British Airways chief executive, is due to report in the autumn, giving him until December to finalise his findings.

TELEMMGLPICT000162921799_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqP4pV-m6laGcMQMbuKYgJGRAi9QsRfzh9VHt38cYMhuU.jpeg

Chris Grayling, transport secretary CREDIT: DANNY LAWSON/PA
The rail industry has largely discounted a new Southeastern operator being in place by June 22. Incumbent Govia is expected to be handed a fresh short-term extension after ministers have already delayed a decision by six months. An announcement on East Midlands, run by Stagecoach, is timetabled for April with a changeover scheduled for August.

On West Coast, a joint venture between Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin and Stagecoach, an announcement is due to made between May and September. The trio rank among the biggest dividend payers, handing out around £350m over the last five years.

Sources said that Chris Grayling’s department had been caught off guard by recent comments by Mr Williams, who said “franchising cannot continue the way it is today”.

Thanks!
 

bionic

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2013
Messages
883
The current franchising system is based on a back-of-a-fag-packet plan by Major's government to rush privatisation through before Blair got in and renationalised it, as per the Labour election manifesto of the time (they only had 13 years in power to follow through on that promise). The current system was never meant as a blueprint for a successful public railway service.

The cynic in me thinks this Williams review is an attempt by the Tories to keep the railways in the hands of the private sector while also acknowledging the system they introduced two decades ago is not fit for purpose. If Labour get in under Corbyn they will renationalise it. This a prime example of the railway as a political football, much like the government throwing their toys out the pram and cutting all funding to TFL after the newly-elected Labour mayor announced a fares freeze. I think you'd struggle to count on one hand the number of politicians who genuinely give the faintest toss about the state of our railways other than whether or not they can make money or gain votes from them. In the meantime it's the travelling public suffering and footing the bill.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,437
Forgive my ignorance, but my understanding is that SWR decided to bin the 707s after taking over from SWT because they could get new trains for a lower leasing cost. Why then would SE take these 707s? Would it be for a lower leasing cost than SWT negotiated? If so then why weren't SWR able to renegotiate the 707 contract, citing the lower leasing costs now available? And if the leasing cost for 707s is still just as high as SWR inherited, then why don't SE just do what SWR did and get some brand new (perhaps ones that can run as 12 car) units for less than the 707s?
The cost stuff keeps being suggested by posters in forums, but the real reason is that the DfT determined that the 707s in their as built condition did not meet the required standing capacity or dwell times for the Wessex inner suburban routes through Clapham Junction. This is all detailed in the franchise ITT, and has been explained a few times in earlier threads, including the main 707 thread.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,398
The cost stuff keeps being suggested by posters in forums, but the real reason is that the DfT determined that the 707s in their as built condition did not meet the required standing capacity or dwell times for the Wessex inner suburban routes through Clapham Junction. This is all detailed in the franchise ITT, and has been explained a few times in earlier threads, including the main 707 thread.
A combination of both, not making the performance criteria on dwell times, standing capacity acceleration and they were comparatively expensive as final nail in the coffin, easier to get a uniform fleet of new trains with matching performance, the large order also helps with the cost.

This is a Direct Award for a short period so there won't be a long leasing deal hence no brand stock as it long lead times just what will be available . It will be for the next franchises to sort new stock. This is no different to the SE 377 subleasing from GTR.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,455
Location
UK
This is a Direct Award for a short period so there won't be a long leasing deal hence no brand stock as it long lead times just what will be available . It will be for the next franchises to sort new stock. This is no different to the SE 377 subleasing from GTR.

As they are new units to SE and potentially being a short Direct Award. How long will the roll-out of 707s take ?
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,398
As they are new units to SE and potentially being a short Direct Award. How long will the roll-out of 707s take ?
Think of number (the plan), then multiply it by another one to get to reality!!!

The 707s leaving SWR before the Aventra are there is a political no-no, so no time soon.

*If true* and a short DA this is possibly more around making sure the new franchise is in the right place to make use of them ASAP.

Realistically full roll out by mid 2020 but they could easily be around for 3 years to add capacity till new stock arrives and sufficient depot / stabling for 12 car is sorted. Gut feeling (as I've said before) on the ITT and demand planning modelling is that they might be looking at them for the Victoria /Blackfriars services, not issue free but SDO and some 9 car (20m) platforms already. Sensible solutions overall for 12car metro for CST and CHX and 8car for VIC /BKR don't align hence split fleet makes sense. i.e. minimise new unit cost you want to reduce the number of cabs (at circa 250k a pair) which would point to 6 or 12car which doesn't fit with 8car.
 

bionic

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2013
Messages
883
Gut feeling (as I've said before) on the ITT and demand planning modelling is that they might be looking at them for the Victoria /Blackfriars services, not issue free but SDO and some 9 car (20m) platforms already.

Don't the junctions London end of Brixton and both ends of Herne Hill pretty much preclude running trains this long as stoppers on this route? I guess you could stop down trains with the front cab two coaches off the platform at Brixton but I still reckon you'd be snookered at Herne Hill.
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,760
Losing 30 high capacity 376s then for 30 high capacity 707s? Except the 707s are slower aren't they? Not sure that's a big deal mind on Metro routes. But anyway, barely any increase in capacity if true.

Actually they would be faster
707 - 100mph
376 - 75mph
 

bionic

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2013
Messages
883
Actually they would be faster
707 - 100mph
376 - 75mph
The line speeds on SE metro routes don't require anything that can go over 75mph. It's only really between Orpington and Sevenoaks that line speed is higher than 75mph on metro routes. Also Bickley junction to Swanley on the off chance they were to run down there. Acceleration is the key factor, rather than maximum permitted speed.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,266
Location
West of Andover
If the 707s are replacing the 376s, where will the 376s end up?

[Other than being fitted with SDO to allow them to operate for Southern so Southern can retire the 455s]

Unless the 707s will be in addition to the 376s which releases more Networkers to form more 12-car services [i.e. 707+707 replaces an existing 465+465+466 working]
 

bionic

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2013
Messages
883
If the 707s are replacing the 376s, where will the 376s end up?

[Other than being fitted with SDO to allow them to operate for Southern so Southern can retire the 455s]
Stick a pan on the roof and send them up north to replace the 319s :D
 

RealTrains07

Established Member
Joined
28 Feb 2019
Messages
1,760
The line speeds on SE metro routes don't require anything that can go over 75mph. It's only really between Orpington and Sevenoaks that line speed is higher than 75mph on metro routes. Also Bickley junction to Swanley on the off chance they were to run down there. Acceleration is the key factor, rather than maximum permitted speed.
But does a 707 accelerate faster than a 376, which is probably more important on the suburban services they probably would operate?

Acceleration comparison

707 - 0.85 m/s2
(According to siemens statistics)

376 - 0.66 m/s -2
(according to a previous thread)

I don’t quite understand stuff like this but i think the 707s are better??
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,398
Don't the junctions London end of Brixton and both ends of Herne Hill pretty much preclude running trains this long as stoppers on this route? I guess you could stop down trains with the front cab two coaches off the platform at Brixton but I still reckon you'd be snookered at Herne Hill.
Brixton:
Northbound - no problem overhang at the rear
Southbound - there isn't a signal at the platform end so can easily overhang at the front so install a stop board in the right place on the Viaduct south of the station

Herne Hill:
The usable platform lengths are 186-190m (so 9-9.25 car post allowances)
P3/4 Southbound - the IBJs are both 25m beyond the usable platform end at the South and 24/3m at the North. P3 the signal is 13m beyond the usable (i.e. painted /textured) end of platform and P4 14m. IBJs
P1/2 Northbound - the IBJs are 17m/6m beyond the usable platform end at the North and 11/44m at the South.
So no problem as regards the normal P2/3 used by the SE trains
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top