Possible Summons

mrjfish007 · 22 Apr 2019

Hi all,

Roughly 6 months ago, I travelled from St Pancras to another station using a discounted ticket bought with a 16-25 Railcard that was expired for a week (I paid around 13 pounds for it), which I mistakenly believed was not yet ready to be renewed. At the next station I was approached by a person who took my information, and later on in the day my £16.50 was deducted from my bank account by TSGN, and I believed the matter was done and dusted.

I just arrived back from a holiday break to my University accomodations and found a letter from Thameslink telling me I was going to be prosecuted for "Travelling with on a train with intent to travel, without a ticket entitling travel". The issue with this is, I did have a discounted ticket, and additional money was deducted from my bank account.

The main problem is, however, I just returned home after 3 weeks and found the letter, which had to be sent back within 14 days with my explanation, and those 14 days have passed. I'm looking for any advice in how to proceed in the matter, I just arrived back tonight and saw the letter, and being a student with horrible finances the prospect of having to pay is honestly extremely daunting and I don
t even know how I'll manage. Looking for any advice to get out of this.

RailUK Forums

mrjfish007 · 22 Apr 2019

For a more concise view of the above (as I'm unable to edit it and it's a complete mess)

Travelled from: St Pancras -> (Other station) via Thameslink, paid £13 for the ticket that would've normally been £18
Issue: Used a 16-25 railcard that was expired for one week
What happened: Officer took my information after saying "It's alright, it's a common misunderstanding", later on in the day I had a bank account deduction from "TSGN" worth £16.50
What mistake did you make: Was on holiday for the past 3 weeks, the "intention to prosecute" letter arrived just as I left, and I only saw it today.

Looking for advice on the above.

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

mrjfish007 said:
, later on in the day I had a bank account deduction from "TSGN" worth £16.50

Was there any indication what the £16.50 was for? Did the revenue protection inspector (RPI) take payment at the time?

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

There was no indication, no payment was taken from me at the time. My biggest worry is that I'm gonna be screwed over not replying to the letter in time.

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

Could you let us know what "other station" is so that we can check fares, please?

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

It's Brighton.

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

Is it possible that the £16.50 was unrelated as it doesn't correspond to any current London/Brighton fare? Also, I'm not sure how they would have been able to debit your account if no payment was made at the time.

Edit: Ah, wait, you did say it was up to six months ago. I don't have the previous fares data.

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

I suppose it is possible. I have been going over my transactions with a fine tooth comb and I've never before had a transaction with "TSGN". I contacted my bank regarding that as well and while they were able to provide no clarification although it was a bank employee who suggested Thameslink as that's the first thing that pops up when you Google "TSGN". Supposing it is unrelated, how would I proceed in this matter?

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

Can you remember the exact date this happened on?

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

This incident happened on the 5th of November.

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

Hmm... That's unfortunate. The TOC has six months from when the incident happened to request a summons. I was hoping that maybe they were out of time but they still have a couple of weeks.

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

Ah oh well, that's pretty unfortunate but I do appreciate your help so far. I intend to contact them tomorrow by phone, ask for an extension on my explanation and pay any administrative fees/other fees that they want to settle this as quickly as possible. Never intended to cheat the system in the first place and I really hope they see this the same way. Would you suggest anything different?

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

Given the limited time available, your best bet is to write back to them explaining that you only just got their letter, enclose a copy of your railcard to show it was just out of date and offer to pay the fare due. Then see if you can follow the letter up with a phone call and/or email.

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

I no longer have my railcard with me unfortunately as I've lost the expired one. Is it alright if I send them my old railcard number which I can pull off the national rail website?

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

mrjfish007 said:
I no longer have my railcard with me unfortunately as I've lost the expired one. Is it alright if I send them my old railcard number which I can pull off the national rail website?

It would have been better if you had the actual card, but the number is better than nothing. If it was one bought online then the original receipt would be a strong indicator of its validity.

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

Yeah, it was bought online and I'll be sure to include as much information as possible. Thanks a lot for all the replies, really appreciate all of your help.

some bloke · 23 Apr 2019

An alternative might be to simply phone/email/tweet saying you are baffled because you thought the matter is closed (and you only just saw the letter) and ask them to clarify before you put any further effort into a reply.

https://scamcharge.com/c/tsgn-london-nw1-gb

some bloke · 23 Apr 2019

What information did they take, that enabled the charge?

These are the *current* fares (you'd expect to be charged a non-discounted fare):

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=STP&dest=BTN
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=STP&dest=BTN&rlc=YNG

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

Thanks for the information above, I'm definitely trying to get a hold on them over the phone before I send the letter today.

daveshah · 23 Apr 2019

£16.50 does appear to correspond with a 16-25 discounted anytime day single. Are you sure this transaction wasn't the original ticket machine purchase with a slight delay (I'm pretty sure Thameslink ticket machines have shown as TSGN for me in the past.)

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

I considered that, however initially on my statement for the exact date that I travellled, I had a £12.40 charge which I believe was the super off peak 16-25 railcard charge at the time, and then another one the following day for £16.50, and I didn't travel via rail on the following day. The £12.40 was from "New Southern Rail" and the one the following day was TSGN.

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

mrjfish007 said:
Thanks for the information above, I'm definitely trying to get a hold on them over the phone before I send the letter today.

Do not delay sending the letter. If you're unable to speak with them get it in the post today. One thing you don't have is the luxury of time.

Haywain · 23 Apr 2019

mrjfish007 said:
I considered that, however initially on my statement for the exact date that I travellled, I had a £12.40 charge which I believe was the super off peak 16-25 railcard charge at the time, and then another one the following day for £16.50, and I didn't travel via rail on the following day. The £12.40 was from "New Southern Rail" and the one the following day was TSGN.

I have found that card transactions from GTR and other TOCs rarely show up on a statement as the day the transaction actually took place, but normally day (or more) later.

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

daveshah said:
Are you sure this transaction wasn't the original ticket machine purchase with a slight delay...

Especially since you wouldn't be charged a discounted fare in these circumstances but rather the appropriate undiscounted fare.

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

Yeah I reckon you're right, must be the fare for the original discounted journey. Regardless, I've sent it through, apologised for the delay, apologised for the mistake, shown proof of a ticket purchase and recently expired card and wholeheartedly expressed my desire to pay any fees incurred. Hoping the prosecutor has mercy now.

mrjfish007 · 23 Apr 2019

In the event that the company chooses to push for Magistrates court, should I plead not guilty? I work in a job where enhanced dbs checks are common, although I suppose they wouldn't care too much about a fare issue.

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

mrjfish007 said:
In the event that the company chooses to push for Magistrates court, should I plead not guilty?

That depends on what charges they bring. If it's under the Byelaws then you have no defence so all you would be doing is increasing your costs, if it's under the Regulation of Railways Act then you might have a defence in that you weren't offered the opportunity to purchase an undiscounted ticket.

While this is technically the process for a forgotten railcard, there is some merit in arguing that it should also be followed for recently expired ones too.

some bloke · 23 Apr 2019

Wouldn't the defence in a RRA case be no intention?

mrjfish007 said:
which I mistakenly believed was not yet ready to be renewed.

najaB · 23 Apr 2019

some bloke said:
Wouldn't the defence in a RRA case be no intention?

Intention is inferred from action since it's impossible to know what was the content the mind. So it comes down to if the OP's actions were those of a 'reasonable' person. If three year railcard is two weeks out of date, then it may well have slipped the mind of that reasonable person. If a one year railcard is two months out of date, then a reasonable person should have been aware.

The word reasonable is important here, since that is the legal standard in criminal cases.

some bloke · 23 Apr 2019

I sometimes wonder whether the standard of proof may be in practice lower, at least on occasion, for railway offences.

"I knew it was due soon, but was busy and forgot to check the date" would seem to introduce doubt that is not unreasonable.

Possible Summons

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