Break of journey in London on advance ticket

I have an advance ticket from Maidstone to Attleborough on 16th May.
It's valid only "on specified trains and connections only".
The specified train is from Maidstone to Victoria.

Now something come up and I could do with spending half a day in London before getting my onward train from Kings Cross or At Pancras.
Am I right in thinking that so long as I complete the journey by the small hours of 17th, I can spend as much time as I like to get from Victoria to Kings X?

trebor79 said:

I have an advance ticket from Maidstone to Attleborough on 16th May.
It's valid only "on specified trains and connections only".
The specified train is from Maidstone to Victoria.

Now something come up and I could do with spending half a day in London before getting my onward train from Kings Cross or At Pancras.
Am I right in thinking that so long as I complete the journey by the small hours of 17th, I can spend as much time as I like to get from Victoria to Kings X?

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No. Break of journey, as you propose in your title, is not permitted when using Advance tickets. Accordingly, you should take appropriate connecting services when travelling from Victoria onwards to Attleborough. 'Appropriate' might be understood to mean such services as a journey planner might suggest if you enter 'Victoria to Attleborough' with departure 'now'.

I doubt that the barriers at King's Cross or St Pancras would be programmed to accept such a ticket, given it is probably quite an unusual ticket for them (certainly compared to, say, Brighton to Cambridge or so). At King's Cross of course the barriers are often open anyway. Onboard a Great Northern or Thameslink service there is no guard, however RPIs often conduct ticket inspections and thus you may find the ticket subjected to scrutiny if you decide to take the 21:39 service from King's Cross as your last connection of the day.

If you wanted to break your journey on that ticket you would need to pay the excess to the cheapest available ticket permitting break of journey - i.e. the cheapest valid walk-up, which would be £68.20 or £94.40 depending on the time of travel.

Hmm. That's disappointing. The barriers at Kings X do accept the tickets, as I've made the journey a few times in the past.
Playing Devil's advocate, what grounds would they have to issue an excess fare or penalty? Is there a maximum allowable connection time?
What if I decided to walk from Victoria and stopped for a pie and pint on the way? Or got lost?
In what way would a train several hours after my arrival at Victoria not be "appropriate"?
What if I took a print from a journey planner showing the actual train I get from Kings X and displaying the exact same price as I've paid for my ticket?

trebor79 said:

Playing Devil's advocate, what grounds would they have to issue an excess fare or penalty?

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Well both the terms and conditions of the Advance ticket (quote 1) and the National Rail Conditions of Travel (quote 2) are clear enough

You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

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If you start, break or resume your journey at an intermediate station where you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare

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trebor79 said:

Is there a maximum allowable connection time?
What if I decided to walk from Victoria and stopped for a pie and pint on the way? Or got lost?
In what way would a train several hours after my arrival at Victoria not be "appropriate"?

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In terms of appropriate connections then the terms and conditions of the ticket state

If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary.

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In other words, you should use the trains which would be shown on something like the National Rail Enquiries journey planner, or a journey planner from a Train Company website.

In practice, where Advances involve unreserved connecting trains, RPIs or guards usually show a little bit of flexibility in what might be deemed as an appropriate train. Given the trains from Cambridge to Attlebrough are hourly, I think that if you ended up on (say) a train up to an hour later out of Kings Cross than on your itinerary because you stopped to buy water, or use the loo, or accidentally boarded the wrong tube train, or perhaps even get a quick bit of lunch, you'd probably be OK. There's no definition in the current Conditions of Travel as to what a 'Break of Journey' is, but the old Condition of Carriage had using station facilities as an exception to this. The fact that you're on a relatively lengthy 4 hour journey might help support the idea that it's OK to stop for a quick refresh at either Victoria or Kings Cross. It might be possible to find a journey planner which has an 'allow longer times for connections' option which would print out an itinerary with this longer journey time on it. Note, though, that this is all about discretion; none of what's in this paragraph is in the current, legally binding terms and conditions of your ticket.

And certainly, there's nothing that would make a train several hours later than on your booked itinerary and appropriate connecting train.

What if I took a print from a journey planner showing the actual train I get from Kings X and displaying the exact same price as I've paid for my ticket?

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This wouldn't be relevant; the Advance ticket covers your booked trains only.

It may well be that an RPI who you meet is not bothered by you being on a later train, or doesn't look at the time of your booked train into Victoria. But the T&C of your ticket, strictly interpreted, don't allow this.

trebor79 said:

Hmm. That's disappointing.

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I'm slightly surprised at your disappointment, not only because, as a diligent passenger you will no doubt have read the conditions of the ticket before you bought it and were therefore aware of the break of journey restriction - but also because this is the rail industry and no-one does faff and needless complexity as well as the rail industry!

trebor79 said:

The barriers at Kings X do accept the tickets, as I've made the journey a few times in the past.

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They accept that on an Advance? That would surprise me a little, but if that's the case then it's obviously one less potential area for trouble.

trebor79 said:

Playing Devil's advocate, what grounds would they have to issue an excess fare or penalty? Is there a maximum allowable connection time?

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The excess fare is payable under the terms of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, to which one is required to agree in order to buy the ticket, as outlined by cuccir. I don't think a Penalty Fare would be payable, for a number of complex reasons. There is no defined maximum allowable connection time anywhere in any conditions or industry data.

trebor79 said:

What if I decided to walk from Victoria and stopped for a pie and pint on the way? Or got lost?

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The previous Conditions of Carriage, which were retired some years ago, held that you were not breaking your journey merely by using station facilities. Accordingly, if you decided you fancied a pint or two at the Parcel Yard at King's Cross, under those Conditions you were clearly entitled to do so with your ticket. Now that the definition has been removed it is less clear, but I don't see why the previous definition should be totally disregarded, seeing as it has not specifically been overridden by something new.

I would say it simply comes down to a 'reasonableness' test. If you are eating something along your way because you are peckish, you are still making your journey, even if that entails missing a train. But if you decide to stop off at an art gallery then clearly you are no longer undertaking your journey.

trebor79 said:

In what way would a train several hours after my arrival at Victoria not be "appropriate"?

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There is no fixed definition of "appropriate", but the phrase "connecting trains" clearly implies that it is supposed to form one and the same journey. As stated above, if you start undertaking a task that has no relation to your journey from Maidstone to Attleborough - e.g. visiting a museum - and therefore missed several trains, I don't think that the train you ended up catching could reasonably be classed as "appropriate".

trebor79 said:

What if I took a print from a journey planner showing the actual train I get from Kings X and displaying the exact same price as I've paid for my ticket?

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The price of another ticket that you don't hold is irrelevant to the validity of your ticket. Next time you can of course use a journey planner that lets you stretch out the journey by adding 'unnecessary' connection time, e.g. TrainSplit.

Yes the ticket works in the barriers on an advance.
Sometimes it routes me via HS1 and sometimes via Victoria, but it's only ever the London to Strood (via HS1) or Maidstone train that is specified.

It sounds like it comes down to semantics. It seems there's nothing to specifically prohibit me from dawdling from Victoria to Kings X. My interpretation of valid connection would be trains on a valid route, rather than time bound. Particularly as the time bound part sounds likes it's down to the discretion of an individual guard or RPI, which makes it arbitrary.
So for example I couldn't go to Euston, catch a train to Birmingham and then get the XC to Ely and change for Attleborough because that's not a valid route (or valid connection in this case).

trebor79 said:

Yes the ticket works in the barriers on an advance.
Sometimes it routes me via HS1 and sometimes via Victoria, but it's only ever the London to Strood (via HS1) or Maidstone train that is specified.

It sounds like it comes down to semantics. It seems there's nothing to specifically prohibit me from dawdling from Victoria to Kings X. My interpretation of valid connection would be trains on a valid route, rather than time bound. Particularly as the time bound part sounds likes it's down to the discretion of an individual guard or RPI, which makes it arbitrary.
So for example I couldn't go to Euston, catch a train to Birmingham and then get the XC to Ely and change for Attleborough because that's not a valid route (or valid connection in this case).

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Feel free to do so, personally I feel this should be better defined but if you feel like dawdling or breaking your journey then do so at your own risk!

trebor79 said:

Yes the ticket works in the barriers on an advance.
Sometimes it routes me via HS1 and sometimes via Victoria, but it's only ever the London to Strood (via HS1) or Maidstone train that is specified.
It sounds like it comes down to semantics. It seems there's nothing to specifically prohibit me from dawdling from Victoria to Kings X. My interpretation of valid connection would be trains on a valid route, rather than time bound. Particularly as the time bound part sounds likes it's down to the discretion of an individual guard or RPI, which makes it arbitrary.
So for example I couldn't go to Euston, catch a train to Birmingham and then get the XC to Ely and change for Attleborough because that's not a valid route (or valid connection in this case).

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But the T&Cs do not state a valid coonection; they state "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
Unless you have a valid travel itinerary for that train the ticket is not valid

trebor79 said:

Playing Devil's advocate, what grounds would they have to issue an excess fare or penalty?

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The NRCoT has provision to charge you an excess fare, priced at the difference between the fare paid and the lowest priced fare that enabled the journey that was undertaken to be made. In practice, this is very rare, but they can do that.

trebor79 said:

Is there a maximum allowable connection time?

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I think by your own admission, you are intending not to make an "appropriate" train for the purposes of making a "connection".

trebor79 said:

What if I decided to walk from Victoria and stopped for a pie and pint on the way?

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It depends on how long you stopped for. You'd be legitimately allowed to have a pie and pint at Victoria or King's Cross stations, providing the connecting service was "appropriate" but technically you are not permitted to do so at a random pub outside railway property.

In practice, if your connecting service is "appropriate" there will be no issue.

trebor79 said:

Or got lost?

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The Victoria Line is well signed, so that shouldn't happen.

trebor79 said:

In what way would a train several hours after my arrival at Victoria not be "appropriate"?

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If you chose to break your journey, for example, which isn't permitted.

trebor79 said:

What if I took a print from a journey planner showing the actual train I get from Kings X and displaying the exact same price as I've paid for my ticket?

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That doesn't mean your ticket is valid for break of journey.

This has been done to death many times before: https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&client=firefox-b-d&ei=i57JXNPCHIui1fAPqPWF8As&q="%26+connections"+break+journey+site%3Arailforums.co.uk&oq="%26+connections"+break+journey+site%3Arailforums.co.uk

OwlMan said:

But the T&Cs do not state a valid coonection; they state "You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
Unless you have a valid travel itinerary for that train the ticket is not valid

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I don't think that's right. Nowhere in the terms does it say you must carry an itinerary generated by a particular system. I must take the booked train from Maidstone to Victoria, as that's printed on the ticket. I'm then essentially free to make my own way to Attleborough provided I stick to the valid route(s) surely. If they wanted to bind me to a particular departure from Kings X they could/should have printed that on the ticket too.

Changing from Victoria to Kings X requires me to leave the network. So far I don't think I've seen anything that says I have to do make the journey from Victoria to Kings X within a set time frame.
So I've broken the journey to change to a connecting train, as per the T&C's. It's not time bound AFAICS.

@yorkie Agree with most of what you've written.
But this is the absurdity of the rail ticketing system - if I were to purchase single tickets from Maidstone to London, and London to Attleborough, both of those individual tickets are more expensive than the one I hold (advances are not available for either individual leg)
The advance ticket I hold is not refundable.
Why should I give away 20 odd quid to the rail industry, and then buy another 80 quids worth of tickets on top of that just so I can make the exact same journey with a bit of a dawdle in the middle as my plans have changed? Particularly when it comes down to judgement, discretion etc as to whether I've broken the journey or not.

I'll chance it and argue the toss with an RPI if collared. Ill ask them to show me in the rules that the connection has to be made within a certain time frame. The won't be able to do that and not will they be able to prove I've done anything other than walk very slowly from Victoria to Kings X.

trebor79 said:

I don't think that's right. Nowhere in the terms does it say you must carry an itinerary generated by a particular system. I must take the booked train from Maidstone to Victoria, as that's printed on the ticket. I'm then essentially free to make my own way to Attleborough provided I stick to the valid route(s) surely. If they wanted to bind me to a particular departure from Kings X they could/should have printed that on the ticket too.

Changing from Victoria to Kings X requires me to leave the network. So far I don't think I've seen anything that says I have to do make the journey from Victoria to Kings X within a set time frame.
So I've broken the journey to change to a connecting train, as per the T&C's. It's not time bound AFAICS.

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National Rail Enquiries contains the text that @OwlMan has quoted. National Rail Enquiries is routinely linked to when you buy a ticket, or its contents simply copied.

trebor79 said:

@yorkie Agree with most of what you've written.
But this is the absurdity of the rail ticketing system - if I were to purchase single tickets from Maidstone to London, and London to Attleborough, both of those individual tickets are more expensive than the one I hold (advances are not available for either individual leg)
The advance ticket I hold is not refundable.
Why should I give away 20 odd quid to the rail industry, and then buy another 80 quids worth of tickets on top of that just so I can make the exact same journey with a bit of a dawdle in the middle as my plans have changed? Particularly when it comes down to judgement, discretion etc as to whether I've broken the journey or not.

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Advances are nothing to do with rights or fairness. They are a revenue management tool, nothing more. The train company has decided, in setting an Advance fare at the level you have purchased, that they are happy to have a passenger pay less for travel at the specific booked times, in exchange for less flexibility.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it - you can either pay the flexible fare, have your 'break' at a station, or stick to the terms of your ticket!

trebor79 said:

I'll chance it and argue the toss with an RPI if collared. Ill ask them to show me in the rules that the connection has to be made within a certain time frame. The won't be able to do that and not will they be able to prove I've done anything other than walk very slowly from Victoria to Kings X.

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If you are confident that this reasoning will work then feel free to proceed on that basis. But trying to argue with RPIs - when you are the one who is in the wrong - is not a wise move. It would be a shame if you failed to heed the advice we gave you here and then ended up having to make a post on the Disputes & Prosecutions section!

Sorry @ForTheLoveOf, I wasn't clear that it was @OwlMan last sentence "Unless you have a valid travel itinerary for that train your ticket is invalid" that I don't think is correct.
The only itinerary is for a particular train from Maidstone. I don't have a problem with that. Or should I be printing an itinerary every time I travel on an open ticket?

Yeah I'd be happy for them to try and take me to court on that one. No way is a judge going to find in their favour when the contract says nothing about how long it may take to get from one station to another. They wouldn't be able to prove that I'd done anything other than make my way slowly from one to the other. Where's the rule against that?

Should also have said thank you for the advice. I will think about it. I'm definitely not going to ignore it, but the "rule" seems a bit wooly in this specific circumstance so it needs weighing up.
If there was a maximum connection time alongside the minimum then I wouldn't challenge it.

trebor79 said:

Sorry @ForTheLoveOf, I wasn't clear that it was @OwlMan last sentence "Unless you have a valid travel itinerary for that train your ticket is invalid" that I don't think is correct.
The only itinerary is for a particular train from Maidstone. I don't have a problem with that.

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Let me put it this way. The base position is that you have no authority to travel at all. If you produce an Advance and are saying that the Advance entitles you to take the train you are on, it will be up to you to show that this is the case. The Advance is subject to the restriction that you may not break your journey and you are not disputing that this is the case. It even says on it "specified trains and required connections". If you are not permitted to break your journey then it follows that, unless you are doing something that doesn't constitute breaking your journey (such as using station facilities to have a meal), you must take the next available connections to complete your journey.

trebor79 said:

Yeah I'd be happy for them to try and take me to court on that one. No way is a judge going to find in their favour when the contract says nothing about how long it may take to get from one station to another. They wouldn't be able to prove that I'd done anything other than make my way slowly from one to the other. Where's the rule against that?

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You say 'no way' but many of these cases are done as a long hearing for one morning or afternoon, with many defendants never turning up. The mere circumstances already mean there is a predisposition to you being in the category of 'fare dodger', even if that is not what has happened. That being the case, I wouldn't like to make any assumptions as to what a judge would call 'required' or 'reasonable'.

As to making your own way across London, Google Maps suggests it's a distance of 3.2 miles from Victoria to King's Cross, so if you are able bodied I don't struggle to believe that you could achieve it in approximately the 1 hour and 7 minutes it suggests that would take to walk. So taking 3 hours without an adequate explanation (e.g. I ate lunch at a restaurant on the top floor at St Pancras, if you took Thameslink) might raise eyebrows.

trebor79 said:

Should also have said thank you for the advice. I will think about it. I'm definitely not going to ignore it, but the "rule" seems a bit wooly in this specific circumstance so it needs weighing up.
If there was a maximum connection time alongside the minimum then I wouldn't challenge it.

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No problem. I agree that it is an area that is poorly defined, but I wouldn't like to 'poke the bear' so to speak, because if that happens then we can probably expect the end of any level of flexibility as to "& Connections" tickets.

I am not sure what time you start your journey but I have been able to generate itineraries with journey times of around 10 hours for 16th May, via London (Victoria) priced at £20.20 undiscounted.
The way to do that is set 'allow extra time to change trains' to '2 hours increment' in advanced search.
If you print that out you should be covered for your slow journey - assuming that you take the route specified.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...L/160519/0900/dep?twohour&via=London_Victoria

I would turn up, with my ticket in hand. As you suggest, I doubt the judge is going to spend much time considering an individual case. I would like to think that the fact I can show the court a ticket for the journey I made on that day would count for a lot.
I guess a lot of defendants don't bother attending because they know they are bang to rights. The mere fact I showed up, with evidence if a ticket, would give me more chance than most of winning.
Why shouldn't the bear be poked?R ticketing is absurd and if it results in clearer rules that everyone understands, rather than relying on arbitrary judgements of what's reasonable or allowed, then I'm all for that.

eastdyke said:

I am not sure what time you start your journey but I have been able to generate itineraries with journey times of around 10 hours for 16th May, via London (Victoria) priced at £20.20 undiscounted.
The way to do that is set 'allow extra time to change trains' to '2 hours increment' in advanced search.
If you print that out you should be covered for your slow journey - assuming that you take the route specified.
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...L/160519/0900/dep?twohour&via=London_Victoria

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Thank heavens for a sensible answer which seems to serve the purpose.

The only possible issue is where you need to be in London. If it is near either Kings Cross or Victoria then there is no problem because the tube ticket gates won't care what time you use the ticket. If you need to go somewhere between then note that you can only make one tube journey using the ticket. You will be let out at the interediate station, but you'll have to use Oyster/contactless to complete the journey later.

Seconded. Thank you!
I have duly printed such an itinerary (it's the 0619) from Maidstone which says to catch the 1212 from Kings Cross. That will be adequate for my purposes.

I'll carry the itinerary with me in case someone gets officious. Although my Machiavellian streak would tempt me to not carry it and arrive in court with it and my ticket.

An itinerary that was not generated with ticket purchase would not be considered valid in this situation.

And how is someone going to tell that it wasn't printed at the same time? It specifies the same train from Maidstone to Victoria as printed on my ticket, and states the same price as printed on my ticket.
The itinerary on the ticket itself specifies only the train to Victoria.

trebor79 said:

And how is someone going to tell that it wasn't printed at the same time? It specifies the same train from Maidstone to Victoria as printed on my ticket, and states the same price as printed on my ticket.
The itinerary on the ticket itself specifies only the train to Victoria.

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Your intentions are clear. You’ve asked for advice on the forum. You’ve not liked the advice you have received as it means you aren’t supposed to do what you intend doing. You’ve politely thanked those for that advice but have made your mind up to do what you planned to do anyway which is against the rules. That’s ok. It’s entirely up to you how you make your journey. I personally don’t think you’ll encounter any issues with what you are doing but given you’re planning on breaking your journey on an advanced ticket it’s only fair that people remind you it’s against the rules.

What robbeeach said.....

Dont think there is any more to be said.