Dispatch of guard operated trains at Reading

pompeyfan · 5 May 2019

I remember reading a while ago that Reading has an unusual method of dispatch for guard operated trains, but I can’t remember the details, could someone please jolt my memory?

Is there any other peculiars of dispatch guard operated trains over the network? For what it’s worth I don’t class 10 bell dispatch as unusual.

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CC 72100 · 5 May 2019

Your query may only relate to certain services or certain platforms - IET and HST (for the next 2 weeks at least!) dispatch from 7-11 is as per other stations, albeit with multiple dispatchers (which again is not uncommon; indeed on Bristol - Pad there are far more stations with 2 dispatchers per train than those with just the 1).

pompeyfan · 5 May 2019

CC 72100 said:
Your query may only relate to certain services or certain platforms - IET and HST (for the next 2 weeks at least!) dispatch from 7-11 is as per other stations, albeit with multiple dispatchers (which again is not uncommon; indeed on Bristol - Pad there are far more stations with 2 dispatchers per train than those with just the 1).

I think you’re correct, I think it was in reference to the Basingstoke bays.

cactustwirly · 5 May 2019

pompeyfan said:
I remember reading a while ago that Reading has an unusual method of dispatch for guard operated trains, but I can’t remember the details, could someone please jolt my memory?

Is there any other peculiars of dispatch guard operated trains over the network? For what it’s worth I don’t class 10 bell dispatch as unusual.

Do you mean the CA/RA indicators?

pompeyfan · 5 May 2019

Yes but it was something to do with the guard having to respond to the CD/RA indicators instead of the usual bat and whistle, and the guard not giving the bells.

TurbostarFan · 5 May 2019

What does the guard do on seeing an RA indicator? I thought that was for the driver.

superhands · 5 May 2019

platform 1,2 and 3 Doo trains need CD and RA, however on the gwr trains the guard either closes the doors or gives the bell signal to closes door to the driver, but the ready to start the guard would get the station work complete from the platform staff, the guard then show the green light/flag to the platform staff who then operates the RA indicator, this should be the same for XC trains.
4,5 and 6 are different for the trains with guards, I think after the platform staff give the guard the train safety check and station work complete signals the guard will use the bell buzzer to give the right away.
CD and RA used for DOO servies.

nuts & bolts · 5 May 2019

pompeyfan said:
Yes but it was something to do with the guard having to respond to the CD/RA indicators instead of the usual bat and whistle, and the guard not giving the bells.

Something akin to this

Departure signal
Station working complete
CD

The Guard from either a (closed) local or cab door will display green flag indicating Full Interlock

RA

pompeyfan · 5 May 2019

Thanks for the responses, is there any particular reason why?

Does anybody have any other examples of similar oddities?

Bletchleyite · 5 May 2019

pompeyfan said:
Thanks for the responses, is there any particular reason why?

Does anybody have any other examples of similar oddities?

At Euston you have:

Platform staff blow whistle and show guard the bat
Guard closes doors except cab door
Guard shows green flag to platform staff (while cab door still open, though some do it through the droplight) then boards and closes cab door
Platform staff operate RA indicator once they can see cab door has closed

I don't think it's that unusual?

Carlisle · 5 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
At Euston you have:

Platform staff blow whistle and show guard the bat

Guard closes doors except cab door

Guard shows green flag to platform staff (while cab door still open, though some do it through the droplight) then boards and closes cab door

Platform staff operate RA indicator once they can see cab door has closed

I don't think it's that unusual?

True, as has been discussed on here before, its common practice at many of the more major stations served by Pendilinos and sometimes Voyagers too, and at the likes of Birmingham New st, Oxford etc t’s been around for decades as a way of reducing the risks of dispatching against a signal at danger

Melancholia · 5 May 2019

Carlisle said:
True, as has been discussed on here before, its common practice at many of the more major stations served by Pendilinos and sometimes Voyagers too, and at the likes of Birmingham New st, Oxford etc t’s been around for decades as a way of reducing the risks of dispatching against a signal at danger

Voyagers through Oxford are not dispatched with RA, they are done in the regular way where dispatchers give the guard gives the right away to the driver.

nuts & bolts · 5 May 2019

Bletchleyite said:
At Euston you have:

Platform staff blow whistle and show guard the bat

Guard closes doors except cab door

Guard shows green flag to platform staff (while cab door still open, though some do it through the droplight) then boards and closes cab door

Platform staff operate RA indicator once they can see cab door has closed

I don't think it's that unusual?

Does this procedure work for both London Northwestern and Virgin, different companies and traction types?

reb0118 · 5 May 2019

I was at Peterborough not that long ago and it looked like the dispatcher gave a green flag to the driver after the station work was completed. Seemed odd as you would assume that LNER trains have bell/buzzers?

Carlisle · 5 May 2019

Melancholia said:
Voyagers through Oxford are not dispatched with RA, they are done in the regular way where dispatchers give the guard gives the right away to the driver.

Ok , i seemed to recall the old cross country loco hauled stock being dispatched at Oxford with RA, but maybe I’m mistaken.

pompeyfan · 5 May 2019

I’d never seen this method before and didn’t realise how prevalent it was.

Sprinter153 · 5 May 2019

I was told when I signed for Basingstoke that the reason behind the instruction is to mitigate against a SASSPAD resulting in a potential collision with a train passing through on the Down Westbury (platform 7). Before my time I believe they had SPAD Indicators there for the same reason.

tiptoptaff · 5 May 2019

reb0118 said:
I was at Peterborough not that long ago and it looked like the dispatcher gave a green flag to the driver after the station work was completed. Seemed odd as you would assume that LNER trains have bell/buzzers?

Guard giving a green flag to the driver was the agreed Method of Work for GWR HSTs to dispatch if the driver/guard buzzer failed. Likely that's similar for LNER HSTs and Mk4s, and is likely what happened there.

LowLevel · 5 May 2019

reb0118 said:
I was at Peterborough not that long ago and it looked like the dispatcher gave a green flag to the driver after the station work was completed. Seemed odd as you would assume that LNER trains have bell/buzzers?

They have a number of DB Cargo class 90s in use which are not fitted with driver/guard communication so the platform staff relay the green flag from the guard northbound as it's a long set.

MotCO · 5 May 2019

I've always found it strange that RA is used to allow a train to leave. 'Right Away' in itself is meaningless as a phrase (although I accept that this was called out by despatch staff years ago) - wouldn't something like 'Train ready to Leave' be more meaningful. CD is obvious; RA seems less so.

LowLevel · 5 May 2019

MotCO said:
I've always found it strange that RA is used to allow a train to leave. 'Right Away' in itself is meaningless as a phrase (although I accept that this was called out by despatch staff years ago) - wouldn't something like 'Train ready to Leave' be more meaningful. CD is obvious; RA seems less so.

So we have an industry internal phrase that is readily understood by all involved and can be handily abbreviated to 2 letters that fit nicely on a sign. How is it logical to change it to something else, especially something longer. Finding fault with something for no reason is daft.

OFF is also a historical term but again it's nice and simple and fits well in to indicators.

Not broken, don't try and be clever trying to fix it for nothing as a result?

pompeyfan · 5 May 2019

Sprinter153 said:
I was told when I signed for Basingstoke that the reason behind the instruction is to mitigate against a SASSPAD resulting in a potential collision with a train passing through on the Down Westbury (platform 7). Before my time I believe they had SPAD Indicators there for the same reason.

That would make complete sense, although I know of multiple places where there’s multiple TPWS-OSS grids that are set to 0 when the signal is on, but on a shorter platform it probably doesn’t make as much sense.

reb0118 · 6 May 2019

LowLevel said:
They have a number of DB Cargo class 90s in use which are not fitted with driver/guard communication so the platform staff relay the green flag from the guard northbound as it's a long set.

That makes sense. Similar to our dispatch at the Waverley for the loco hauled Fife's. The dispatcher relays the guard's green flag via the RA indicator though.

LowLevel · 6 May 2019

reb0118 said:
That makes sense. Similar to our dispatch at the Waverley for the loco hauled Fife's. The dispatcher relays the guard's green flag via the RA indicator though.

It used to be in the rulebook that green flags/lamps must be relayed via the RA indicator if one is fitted and the platform manned regardless of the circumstances should they need to be used. It was removed a few years ago and replaced with station facility owner/TOC specific instructions. I suppose it avoids confusion with what could be otherwise unused equipment having to be safely operated at short notice.

reb0118 · 6 May 2019

I always used to wonder when working the sleeper that we used the RA at the Waverley but not Aberdeen (the dispatcher would acknowledge your green lamp with his white then change to green & relay that to the driver) even though there was a RA button next to the TSTS (Train Ready To Start). Most dispatchers there stated that they had never been trained on it - some even claimed not to know what RA stands for.........

HamworthyGoods · 6 May 2019

Redruth is another example of where loco hauled trains are dispatched by RA as the stop position for the loco is round the corner under a bridge off the end of a platform meaning the driver can’t actually see the platform.

This has been practice there for donkeys years.

Carlisle · 6 May 2019

reb0118 said:
Most dispatchers there stated that they had never been trained on it - some even claimed not to know what RA stands for.........

Yes, Scotland appears to do things slightly differently as they’ve also had CD/RA indicators installed for a while at Glasgow Central, but still appear to dispatch all the Strathclyde DOO services using traditional bat & flag or lamp.

Metal_gee_man · 6 May 2019

I'd love to know the regular maximum number of dispatchers on any given station, I know for example there are at least 3 dispatchers on the platforms of East Croydon Station when 12 car units rumble through one by the drivers cab, one by the ramp from the main concourse (the back of the train) and one middle-ish sometimes 2 because of the second entrance overbridge, I know the guard has nothing to do with the dispatch its all a system of radio and lit paddles down the platform until the dispatcher at the drivers cab gives the all clear.
Can it get any more labour intensive?

Bletchleyite · 6 May 2019

nuts & bolts said:
Does this procedure work for both London Northwestern and Virgin, different companies and traction types?

I believe so, yes. LO are DOO so they use CD/RA in a more conventional way, I believe.

Mojo · 6 May 2019

pompeyfan said:
Thanks for the responses, is there any particular reason why?

Does anybody have any other examples of similar oddities?

Last time I was at Marylebone the CD indicator was still used on the loco hauled set, even though the doors are operated by the train guard, this was in a similar manner to that described in the post above for the western bay roads at Reading.

I’ve always wondered why Pendolinos seem to be dispatched using RA indicators at stations where all other trains use their bell/buzzer.

Dispatch of guard operated trains at Reading

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